Civil Rights Movement encroaches on rights?

[Johnnypenso]

You know what? I don't get a great feeling about my healthcare diagnosis and treatment when a person who smells like smoke is telling me how to improve my condition. It's a private healthcare system. Tough crap, smokers. Go find a new hobby.

There's also the matter of smokers generally being a bit more of a cost to bear to deal with, health-wise, lost productivity due to smokers needing their fix every hour or so, and other associated expenses. It's merely a business matter, and companies can look out for their bottom line in these economic times, you know.

There. I stuck my neck out...you can operate on it, if you don't smoke.

Then again, Henry Ford was in cahoots with Hitler, and he didn't like smoking either. Must be a correlation.

If smokers being a bit more cost to bear was reason for not hiring people then you wouldn't be hiring overweight or obese people either? People with kids are probably more likely to be sick or miss work due to their kids being sick as well. People with a history of illness are more likely to miss work. Are you proposing these are all good reasons for refusing to hire someone?

And if they are that adamant about smoking, and the effects a stinky smoker might have on patients, how about the other way around? Don't treat stinky smokers because it might be offensive to their now smoke free staff.

Where does it end?

 

[Keef]

If smokers being a bit more cost to bear was reason for not hiring people then you wouldn't be hiring overweight or obese people either? People with kids are probably more likely to be sick or miss work due to their kids being sick as well. People with a history of illness are more likely to miss work. Are you proposing these are all good reasons for refusing to hire someone?

Those are extremely good reasons considering many people aren't hired because of a loose tie.

 

[Liquid]

Well, surely under their property rights the hospital can refuse to hire whomever they want, right?

I kind of see it both ways. I personally don't smoke nor do I like smoking and definitely see the hypocrisy, but my doctor should surely be able to have seperate personal and professional opinions. I'll bet that my dentist doesn't always brush twice a day.

 

[Hayden]

Well, i've read through this thread front to back and have some things to say.

Firstly, i'm against racism, but giving select racial minorities extra benefits certainly doesn't create equality, but instead acknowledges difference and tries to 'make up for it'. In other words I think effort should be made to try to treat all people exactly the same. Let a Chinese restaurant have a 'No whites allowed' sign. Allow an airline to say 'no seats for overweight customers,' or give a gym the rigjt to say 'No fitness freaks.' Is this discrimination? Yes. Is it at least a somewhat equal system when compared to those of early America or Nazi Germany? You betcha! As pointed out earlier, the modern general public has strong morals which could easily see such establishments boycotted to bankruptcy if they 'stepped over the line.'

A very inspirational speaker I once saw by the name of Sam Bailey (who was made a quadriplegic due to a farm incident and is now working to become the first quad to fly a helicopter unassisted) , noted that he didn't truly feel normal and accepted until his mates started joking with him about his injury. At first i thought about what a terrible thing that is- picking on the handicapped guy, but as he explained, it became clear that I'd want no different from my mates in the circumstance. Everyone jives with their buddies over something, and everyone treating me like my feelings were made of wet tissue just wouldn't feel normal.

What i'm trying to say is that acknowledging and accepting differences, while trying to be a kind person yourself, who makes an effort to treat everyone very equal and fair is (IMO) a hell of a lot better outcome than forcing everyone to love each other through legislation or worse.

As for the smoking discrimination, and the wider argument it may open up... I agree with what that hospital group is doing when it's read in context. I'm just waiting for the can o' worms to burst when someone tries to sue them for discrimination.

In closing, some people don't like other people or things and feel contempt to speak up, they have, deserve and need the right to do so- whether You, Me, Hitler, Stalin, Obama or anybody else likes it or not. Learn to cope with the society you have or find one that works with your views.

Oh and for anyone curious about Mr Bailey, here's his website, with all you may wanna know about his fantastic story..
http://www.sambailey.com.au/

 

[Johnnypenso]

Those are extremely good reasons considering many people aren't hired because of a loose tie.

So to generalize, I engage in a perfectly legal activity on my own time, I refrain from doing it on your property at work to set a good example for our customers/patients, I am perfectly capable of performing the job I am applying for, but you can specify you won't hire me because I engage in this legal activity on my own time, which if I'm single, potentially harms no one but myself.

I'm not a smoker, never have been, detest it entirely, and I still have a huge problem with this.

Well, surely under their property rights the hospital can refuse to hire whomever they want, right?

I kind of see it both ways. I personally don't smoke nor do I like smoking and definitely see the hypocrisy, but my doctor should surely be able to have seperate personal and professional opinions. I'll bet that my dentist doesn't always brush twice a day.

Can you really just hire whoever you want and therefore, as an extension of this principle of not hiring smokers, just state what you are or aren't looking for in an employee? So if I ran a clothing store it's, perfectly legal to run this ad for an employee?

Clothing store looking for sales clerk with manager potential. Because you are dealing with the public you must be very pretty with above average sized breasts, and under 25 to present a youthful appearance. You cannot be more than 20 on the standard BMI and we will weigh you and calculate your BMI in the interview. You cannot drink or smoke off the job. You must have perfect teeth....etc. etc. etc.​

 

[Famine]

It's not legal. But it should be. Unless the post is in a public-funded institution.

 

[hellnback]

You could try this approach...

http://cybertext.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/groundspray_ad.png

 

[FoolKiller]

Can you really just hire whoever you want and therefore, as an extension of this principle of not hiring smokers, just state what you are or aren't looking for in an employee? So if I ran a clothing store it's, perfectly legal to run this ad for an employee?

Clothing store looking for sales clerk with manager potential. Because you are dealing with the public you must be very pretty with above average sized breasts, and under 25 to present a youthful appearance. You cannot be more than 20 on the standard BMI and we will weigh you and calculate your BMI in the interview. You cannot drink or smoke off the job. You must have perfect teeth....etc. etc. etc.​

Ever been to a Hooters? Yes, they got sued and they had to let a dude wait tables in the end, but it turns out the average Hooters customer didn't want a dude, because when he comes around every five minutes and bends over to refill your glass with beer from the pitcher sitting on your table all you see is a hairy chest.

If the local Hooters put out a job ad that said, "Slutty 20-25 year old hot chicks only" I'd be more likely to show up, especially on dress up days.

As for the rest of it, regarding healthy practices, that should be fine, especially as long as we continue tying health insurance to our jobs. At a decent, middle class job the employer is usually paying 85% or more of your premiums. Your unhealthy lifestyle affects their profit margin, the insurance availability for all employees, and possibly even whether or not layoffs may become necessary.

If you had to pay $5,000-$10,000 every year for every $30,000-$35,000 employee, not to mention people constantly burning sick days, or even presenteism, wouldn't you want to be able to reduce the health risks of your employees?

But since law doesn't allow that, the insurance companies themselves are beginning to charge more for smokers, which employers are, rightfully, passing straight on to the smoking employee.

 

[homeforsummer]

Clothing store looking for sales clerk with manager potential. Because you are dealing with the public you must be very pretty with above average sized breasts, and under 25 to present a youthful appearance. You cannot be more than 20 on the standard BMI and we will weigh you and calculate your BMI in the interview. You cannot drink or smoke off the job. You must have perfect teeth....etc. etc. etc.​

That actually reminds me of the scene in Oceans 13 - a waitress is fired from the casino for putting on weight, but as she's been hired as "a model who serves" rather than a waitress, it's entirely legal to fire her based on appearance...

 

[Zenith]

Best use of Ocean's 13 in a human rights and legal debate ever.

 

[homeforsummer]

Best use of Ocean's 13 in a human rights and legal debate ever.

Probably the only use.

 

[Famine]

Probably the only use.

Oooh, I don't know. You could debate the angles of depriving a man of property he gained through fraudulent means (Bank), harming an innocent man in the process of taking that property (the VUP), depriving a third party of property in order to recompense that man (airport slots), depriving another man of property by fraudulent means (Terry Benedict) and making a whole load of people unwitting accomplices to the scheme.

 

[homeforsummer]

Oooh, I don't know. You could debate the angles of depriving a man of property he gained through fraudulent means (Bank), harming an innocent man in the process of taking that property (the VUP), depriving a third party of property in order to recompense that man (airport slots), depriving another man of property by fraudulent means (Terry Benedict) and making a whole load of people unwitting accomplices to the scheme.

I stand corrected...

 

[Famine]

Heist capers: Toying with the moral compass like a logical lodestone since 1957.