Cockpit view - IMHO overated and not so useful...

[t.o.]

I use cockpit view only, and so glad we're able to get rid of all the junk on the screen now and just have the cockpit and the road.

I went through this thread and am amazed at some of the hypocrisy going on. "GT5 is the monster game because the physics are closer to sim than anything else on a console and I wouldn't touch anything else because I want realism" YET "I can't use cockpit view and it's no good because sorta like in real life , my view is obstructed. I rather use bumper so I can unrealistically see everything because after all it's just a game."

 

[Afro1]

@RC45:
err no again. This a video game not a simulator. Maybe PD claim it's the real driving simulator but there are many variables missing to make it a simulator.
Imagine a football game. You have a birds eye view and you can see other players behind you and stuff. If it was a real football game you would control 1 player and you would have a first person view lol.
Birds eye is the preferred view cause you can see what's going on and player 2 can see without having split screen.
Same goes for GT5 Bumper cam is the preffered view cause you have a better field of view.

You are wrong, really wrong.

 

[RC45]

While I agree with a lot of what you said, this is completely wrong. As I said before, without the other sensory inputs feeding the same information to your brain, the experience can be either "fun" or downright painful to the point of inducing siezures, depending on the observer. Either way, it's not realistic.

For GT5's shaking to be realistic and tolerable to everyone, there needs to be ways of conveying those other necessary sensations and tactile feedback. Since that is impossible for most people, there should be an option in the game to turn the visual effects off or on.

Just because you and/or 1000 other people find the visual shaking "immersive", it does not make it realistic without the other sensory inputs.

So in your view because there is an absence of other tactile feedback the camera/view shake is totally unrealistic and should be ditched?

I have to ask if you have ever been behind the wheel of a high HP hogh grip car? The only reason I ask is because if youhave, you would know that there is such an onslaught of sensations and sensory inputs you would always be wanting in the simulaiton world for yet more sensory and tactile input.

What you need is somewhay to "simulate" the total sensory overload and hinderence these inputs play. This is probably why the severe camera shake and jolting of the ZR1 RM at Indy as you streak around the corner is appropriately more real than if the display just slowly wallows liek that of a 900cc Fiat ging 37mph.

It is afterall a pursuit of simulating the sensations using only your eyes, outer ears and hands/arms. You are missing so many of the other inputs in your living room you really need all the help you can get - unless the "total effect' is not important.

And with regard to vertigo, motion sickness and seizures etc - this is true in the "real' real world as well - some people throw up the first time they are taken around a race track anyway - their constitution just cant handle the real sensory input involved, perhaps that is why they cant handle the visual-only version either.

@RC45:
err no again. This a video game not a simulator. Maybe PD claim it's the real driving simulator but there are many variables missing to make it a simulator.
Imagine a football game. You have a birds eye view and you can see other players behind you and stuff. If it was a real football game you would control 1 player and you would have a first person view lol.
Birds eye is the preferred view cause you can see what's going on and player 2 can see without having split screen.
Same goes for GT5 Bumper cam is the preffered view cause you have a better field of view.

You are wrong.

This is why I dont play "sports games" - they are "match managers" not sports "sims".

GT5 Bumper Cam is your preferred view - so how does that make me "wrong" - the correct grammar would read "incorrect" and cause is not the same as because.

 

[MeanElf]

I'm good with the cockpit view - I just really like it and feel it's a lot closer to the racing sim ethos than simply using a bumper-cam view.

I know that's easier but I find cockpit view far more rewarding. I've done it in Sturmovik BoP, in Dirt 2 and will continue with GT5.

Besides, there's a lot more fun to be had when the weather is filthy outside - I don't see people sticking their heads outside in real life - it really adds to the challenge.

Bring on the championships that allow cockpit view only, that's what I'm looking forward to!

 

[t.o.]

Well, "prefering' the view means nothing - last time I checked when a driver gets in the car they cant "select the prefered view' - the view is the view you get from the seating psoition. Now in some future of cars with bumper cams and rear view cams and side cams and no windows, that would be an accurate representation, but if you are supposedly driving a 1967 Muira, guess what, the view is partially obstructed and you can't really tell where the corners of the car are and you will be handicapped compared to some other driver who either knows the car better of has a car with a better visbility.

IOW< the "lap time' youput down is only of arbitrary value to the game and in no way shape or form reflective of the "car" and "reality" - which actually defeats the purpose of playing the 'real driving simulator' as you just countered all the complex physics in favour for a view that allows you to drive unrealisticly quickly with that car

The bottomline is if you are that unconcerned about the "entire package" of drivign the car that cockpit view is a hinderence, then you relaly are better of with the NFS Hot Pursuits, DRiFT and SHiFT's of the gaming world

All you bumper cam folks are just wannabe arcade racers I hear they are holding a OutRun marathon at the Paladium this weekend



Once they sort out head tracking you will have that solved.

I didn't see this post man. WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree on just about every damn point you make. I only got about 3/4 through this thread before I replied with my earlier post. If I had seen this post I would have just quoted and "ditto"ed it. Well said, RC45.

 

[nickg07]

Hm. the Cockpit view is 'nice' but too restrictive at the same time for me to use. I cant see far enough down the track and as i am not a professional racing driver then i do not know every inch of every circuit off by heart. Hence i need to see further along to make better decisions.

 

[RacingManiac]

I think without the inner ear giving some kind of reference, for some the pure visual based motion causes them to have issue dealing with vertigo. I know quite a few people who for the life of them can't play racing game or FPS, even if they are perfectly capable of driving a car or racing a kart....

RC45, I can see why you say that in real-life you can't choose to have bumper view or roof view, but in real life you can set up the seat to be what you want to feel comfortable in, the cockpit view in GT5 you can't. For me some car is a lot better than others to use cockpit view in. Some cars I won't even bother(as said, the C4 WRC being one). Most PC sim gives you a lot of option in setting up your view in cockpit, not just head position but look ahead and stuff. In some cars in GT5 yon can't see much past the side to look at the apex when you turn in, something that I'd do in real life. I'd love to have a 3 screen setup though....

 

[curtis_boy]

why cant you see the whole front window instead of just the driver side and when you look left and right you barely see anything

 

[Biggamehit]

RC

I have been racing for 10 years... and I have yet to feel sick after racing...exhausted yes but never physically sick. My visions doesn't shake at all.. unless I smack something very hard.

Ill say again in GT5P I loved the cockpit no issues.. But with this game after about 20min of cockpit I feel sick. I sit about 6 feet away from my TV.


edit: After reading my post..... it was funny.

 

[Afro1]

This is why I dont play "sports games" - they are "match managers" not sports "sims".

GT5 Bumper Cam is your preferred view - so how does that make me "wrong" - the correct grammar would read "incorrect" and cause is not the same as because.

No Bonnet view is my preferred view. I've said that about 2 times already...
You're saying all people who use bumper view are just trying to get the best lap times and stuff like that. What I'm saying is there are people who actually PREFER that view. Read damnit, read.

For example, Ridge Racer. Maybe all the best racers in that game use bumper view but most people prefer it cause they can see more.

RC

I have been racing for 10 years... and I have yet to feel sick after racing...exhausted yes but never physically sick. My visions doesn't shake at all.. unless I smack something very hard.

Ill say again in GT5P I loved the cockpit no issues.. But with this game after about 20min of cockpit I feel sick. I sit about 6 feet away from my TV.


edit: After reading my post..... it was funny.

I only get motion sickness when I set the view to narrow or narrower. I actually almost vomited lol.
Maybe you need to sit closer.

 

[SouL]

I like the in-car. It takes some time to get used to... but once you do, you get a sense of where things are outside of the car and it gets easier and easier to place the car on track.
It's just practice.

The thing I like about the in-car is that it gives you a really interesting perspective with each and every car.
They didn't get it 100% correct but it's close.
For comparison's sake, I have an Elise, inside I can see pretty much the entire interior in front of the seats, my lap and legs, my hand on the gear shifter, etc, etc. And I'm not a tall person. 5'8".
GT5 doesn't have a wide enough camera. In GT5, you see the wheel, instrument cluster and a bit of the radio. It's like the driver is sat in the car with the seat pulled all the way forward. I think they're trying to account for having a fairly good ratio of in-car display and track visibility through the windscreen.

What I do like is how GT5 captured the view of the front wheel arches when sitting inside the car. The WRC cars are particularly difficult to drive because of the limited visibility. At first I thought, wtf, it's like driving through a mailbox slot. But then when I was driving towards the sun in one of the ice tracks it all made sense. It blocks sunlight so they can see the track

But to each their own. I've played the entire game through in-car so far.
The LFA, by far, has the sweetest tach I've come across in the game. I love how the entire tach turns more and more red as you get to redline.

 

[RC45]

I'm good with the cockpit view - I just really like it and feel it's a lot closer to the racing sim ethos than simply using a bumper-cam view.

I know that's easier but I find cockpit view far more rewarding. I've done it in Sturmovik BoP, in Dirt 2 and will continue with GT5.

Besides, there's a lot more fun to be had when the weather is filthy outside - I don't see people sticking their heads outside in real life - it really adds to the challenge.

Bring on the championships that allow cockpit view only, that's what I'm looking forward to!

Exactly - I was thinking as I was doing the Nurburg in the rain with the 300SL all that was missing was the steamy dank smell of an older car in the rain and condensation on the side windows as I kept peering through the mist and rain to see past the car in front of me I wanted to grab my sleeve and wip the TV down. Man it sucks to drive in the rain

 

[PankOverKill]

Everyone seems to be real opinionated when this is all really a matter about desire.

i desire the cockpit view to admire their work. and use the limitations of view a dose of reality.
i love ferrari's and i love pretending to sit in one.

 

[chris139ryan]

I much prefer the cock pit view as that is what everyone sees when they are driving, so it is more realistic

 

[Puzom]

RC

I have been racing for 10 years... and I have yet to feel sick after racing...exhausted yes but never physically sick. My visions doesn't shake at all.. unless I smack something very hard.

Ill say again in GT5P I loved the cockpit no issues.. But with this game after about 20min of cockpit I feel sick. I sit about 6 feet away from my TV.


edit: After reading my post..... it was funny.

I really like cockpit view, no issues of getting sick. Only track I don't like with this view is the Indy Oval, really shakes too much. At least in the Corvette Z1.

 

[UK-Gamer]

Also the amount of head shake and FOV is adjustable.

I guess for a game like GT5 that won't even allow us to adjust tire pressure, short comings like those are expected......

You excited about RF2?

Well, they have to refrain from being full-on sim because a) They want to sell consoles and b) This has to appeal to all ages.

How would a 7 year old look at tire pressure? They'll just see the numbers and scream. I am only 12 so find the game basic and understand most of the tuning.

If there was adjustable FOV, most people would make sure that they can see everything, what is the point of cockpit view then?

 

[novcze]

why cant you see the whole front window instead of just the driver side and when you look left and right you barely see anything

Just use so called "bumper cam" view ... that is basically front window view just ignorants are calling that bumper cam.

 

[Rocket Punch]

Hm. the Cockpit view is 'nice' but too restrictive at the same time for me to use. I cant see far enough down the track and as i am not a professional racing driver then i do not know every inch of every circuit off by heart. Hence i need to see further along to make better decisions.

Why would a racing driver can see further enough down the road than a normal people and what does that have anything to do cockpit view? Race drivers don't have special vision powers; Anyone can look as far down the road as they want that is if they actually made an effort to do it. 👍

Also, you don't need to know every inch of the track to be fast. braking point, turn in point, entry, apex, exit is all you need. The only difference is how precise and consistent can you be. 👍

 

[FLIGHT50]

I agree that I don't see the big hype in cockpit view. It messes me all up. I hate seeing the side pillar of the car. Give me open road. I like the chase view when playing with the controller and the hood/roof view when playing with the wheel. In cock pit, I can't look at my instrument panel and drive at the same time. My tv doesn't sit 2-3 feet from my eyes like a real car. The numbers are to small. I think most like it because that is the view you'd see if your were really behind the wheel. Me I have to go with what plays best by giving me the best view without obstructions.

 

[RC45]

RC

I have been racing for 10 years... and I have yet to feel sick after racing...exhausted yes but never physically sick. My visions doesn't shake at all.. unless I smack something very hard.

Ill say again in GT5P I loved the cockpit no issues.. But with this game after about 20min of cockpit I feel sick. I sit about 6 feet away from my TV.


edit: After reading my post..... it was funny.

I have a 60" TV and sit with a raceseat/wheel about 3 feet from the screen. I cant imagine tryign to sit further away, the pivoting sense would getm ehaving as well. Try sitting closer - it may help.

Just use so called "bumper cam" view ... that is basically front window view just ignorants are calling that bumper cam.

If you drive up to a wall, is ther an "invisible" barrier between you and the wall or are you right up against it in "bumper cam"?

 

[Rocket Punch]

If there was adjustable FOV, most people would make sure that they can see everything, what is the point of cockpit view then?

You do know there is a limit of how much you can adjust right? Just checking.

I would worry about if a game can let you see more than 160 deg, but I would not define a normal human being's deg of peripheral vision as too much.

 

[RacingManiac]

Well, they have to refrain from being full-on sim because a) They want to sell consoles and b) This has to appeal to all ages.

How would a 7 year old look at tire pressure? They'll just see the numbers and scream. I am only 12 so find the game basic and understand most of the tuning.

If there was adjustable FOV, most people would make sure that they can see everything, what is the point of cockpit view then?

If you are 12 then maybe you don't necessarily have the experience, but when you drive the car do you adjust you seat so you feel comfortable and see what you needed to see, or do you just leave it as it is? Because the latter is what a fixed cockpit view forces you do. Like I said it depends heavily on the car and how its setup in GT5, some just work better than the others...

 

[calan_svc]

So in your view because there is an absence of other tactile feedback the camera/view shake is totally unrealistic and should be ditched?

I don't believe the shake is unrealistic; it's the way that it is being conveyed that is unrealistic. In a real high powered, high grip car there is definitely a lot of shaking going on. But there are also a lot of g-forces, vibrations, and other subtle sensory inputs happening along with it (not to mention your head and eyes are shaking right along with the car). All of these together give the (accurate) sensation of speed. With only the visual shaking while your body is stationary, it is a faked effect that can cause real problems for some people, depending on how their brain interprets reality.

And I don't think it should be ditched at all. I think a simple option slider should be added so that everyone has the ability to set it to what is comfortable for them.

I have to ask if you have ever been behind the wheel of a high HP hogh grip car? )

Yep...several times over the last 30 years.

I have a 500+ awhp auto-x/road car in my garage right now waiting for a turbo rebuild, and for spring to arrive.

I've also done a lot of work on racing simulator and motion design, and have spent WAY too many hours trying to understand and solve the problems with sensory overload and syncing.

You excited about RF2?

Yep! And the damn nice hot rod PC my brother built and is handing over to me to run it on.

 

[Tagger]

I still love driving in cockpit view when I want to just enjoy the experience. But, when I need to get the job done, so to speak, I usually switch to hood view. I've used the bumper cam in some licensing tests. But, the problem I encounter in bumper view at times is knowing where the front corners of the car are relative to adjacent cars and obsticles.

 

[R3LF13]

I really like the cockpit view, but i really only use it for practice, when driving for fun, or on really open tracks. When racing in a close race, driving for lap times, or driving on a street course I use bumper cam. There's just too much screen real estate used up by the roof in most fast cars.

 

[machschnel]

Second view down is a "bonnet cam" option.

 

[Tommy_861]

Well, "prefering' the view means nothing - last time I checked when a driver gets in the car they cant "select the prefered view' - the view is the view you get from the seating psoition. Now in some future of cars with bumper cams and rear view cams and side cams and no windows, that would be an accurate representation, but if you are supposedly driving a 1967 Muira, guess what, the view is partially obstructed and you can't really tell where the corners of the car are and you will be handicapped compared to some other driver who either knows the car better of has a car with a better visbility.

IOW< the "lap time' youput down is only of arbitrary value to the game and in no way shape or form reflective of the "car" and "reality" - which actually defeats the purpose of playing the 'real driving simulator' as you just countered all the complex physics in favour for a view that allows you to drive unrealisticly quickly with that car

The bottomline is if you are that unconcerned about the "entire package" of drivign the car that cockpit view is a hinderence, then you relaly are better of with the NFS Hot Pursuits, DRiFT and SHiFT's of the gaming world

All you bumper cam folks are just wannabe arcade racers I hear they are holding a OutRun marathon at the Paladium this weekend



Once they sort out head tracking you will have that solved.

Wow... eliteist about using the in car view.... NOW this forum has reached a new low, see reply below.

RC

I have been racing for 10 years... and I have yet to feel sick after racing...exhausted yes but never physically sick. My visions doesn't shake at all.. unless I smack something very hard.

Ill say again in GT5P I loved the cockpit no issues.. But with this game after about 20min of cockpit I feel sick. I sit about 6 feet away from my TV.


edit: After reading my post..... it was funny.

I too have been racing around the same amount of time, everything from Corvettes, open wheel cars, to my junky VW Fox race car now I use for Lemons. I feel like I have to vomit within 3 minutes of using the in car camera. Not only that the field of view sucks tremendously, and obviously being limited by a screen size you can't look ahead. When I am in a rally car (in real life) I spend half the time looking out the side window!

The cockpit view is a nice gimmick, and fun if you can stomach it. The shaking may be "realistic" but all it is, is a simulation and not a very good one. In real life your body and brain can compensate for it, which is why people like myself and Biggamehit get ill from it. (I also don't play FPS games for the same reason, I get sick within 10 minutes.)

 

[Bogie 19th]

I couldn't race without cockpit view. I hate the fact that I have to resort to bumper cam for standards (I avoid the standards like the plague anyway).

 

[skywolf23]

Citreon GT Race car..........

I use bumper cam for all races in all cars.

LOL i was thinking i dare someone to try and drive that car in cockpit view it is sheer terror simply because you cannot see a darn thing out the window.

I am a tall guy so in real car my seat is usually cranked back and my head is pretty high up in the car. Hence GT5s cockpit view seems totally off for me, it feels far too low and way way too far forward period. The game really needs personal adjustment for the cockpit cams, not have the default driving position based of kaz's personal driving perspective , lets face it he is pretty short.

But bottom line the cockpit does not afford a great view of the track compared to either the roof or the bumper cams. But i try to use cockpit view most of the time, but if i really need to go fast like the vettle challenges i am going to roof cam because it gives me a taller view of the road i can look down the road see corners better and i can get a perfect feel of the orientation of the car via roof cam, bumper cam seems good for that also but since your stuck a few inches off the ground you do not have that look down the track you get with the roof cam.

 

[Tommy_861]

Just use so called "bumper cam" view ... that is basically front window view just ignorants are calling that bumper cam.

I forgot about this one. I recall reading a while ago Kaz saying (in reference to GT4) that the "bumper cam view" is really set at the approximate height and location of the actual driver's eyes. I wish I could find that info again but I read it a long time ago. These pics should be pretty decent proof.

I have a 60' and sit with a raceseat/wheel about 3 feet from the screen. I cant imagine tryign to sit further away, the pivoting sense would getm ehaving as well. Try sitting closer - it may help.



If you drive up to a wall, is ther an "invisible" barrier between you and the wall or are you right up against it in "bumper cam"?

There is an invisible barrier, you can in some cases still see a little ground depending on the car.