Conservatism

Judging by the number of state actors who took part in the Bud boycott for performative ***** and giggles, I'd say it was bitchier and less legitimate than the backlash to Rape Day.

Some of these pols are also involved in efforts to remove rights from people who happen to be trans which is tied up with the reason they're bitching, so the two situations aren't equivalent to my eyes.
Oh yea, no doubt.

I just didn't know what we were labelling.

Of course they aren't equivalent in terms of the reasons for said outrage. The only linking factor is that they are both because of offensiveness (one because of a questionably pathological thought process).

I'm more interested in where we say "that's a reasonable response" and "that's absurd/laughable". I guess I'd like to explore the spectrum, and when it becomes conservative in nature in  that respect.

Hope that makes sense.
 
Where it affects actual people? In one case the complainers' objections seemed heartfelt to me even if I don't objectively agree that harm was being caused. Not what I'd class as an absurd objection. In the other case... well, performative was the word I used. Performative doesn't sound reasonable to me. It sounds pathological.
 
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Where it affects actual people? In one case the complainers' objections seemed heartfelt to me even if I don't objectively agree that harm was being caused. Not what I'd class as an absurd objection. In the other case... well, performative was the word I used. Performative doesn't sound reasonable to me.
Couldn't this same argument be applied to those objecting to the original Doom back in the day?

Were they considered conservatives, or people objecting out of heartfelt sincerity?
 
Couldn't this same argument be applied to those objecting to the original Doom back in the day?

Were they considered conservatives, or people objecting out of heartfelt sincerity?
Rape is harmful. Videogame violence, much less so in a society which celebrates movie violence.
 
Actual rape is, yes.... as is actual violence (including murder). We're talking about videogame rape however.
Which is why I don't have the same objections as the complainers. I can't think of comparable examples celebrating rape, though, while I can think of many celebrating violence. Maybe the people complaining about Rape Day have a point although I'm willing to bet they haven't. At this point in time though, it's not easily proven to be unreasonable or "absurd".
 
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Certainly support for censorship and prohibition of that which is deemed to be indecent or obscene--despite absence of legitimate harm--is fundamental to conservatism, particularly social conservatism. It goes back to subjective morality and enforcement thereof. And while state enforcement of subjective morality is conservative in nature, social campaigns with censorial or prohibitive ends are assured to qualify.

...

Kaitlyn Anderson was six months pregnant when a driver killed her and a Missouri Department of Transportation colleague in 2021 while they were doing roadwork near St. Louis. Her fetus also died.

Although Anderson’s family tried to sue the department on her behalf, workers’ compensation laws in Missouri and elsewhere shield employers from wrongful death lawsuits when an employee dies on the job. So the case was also filed on behalf of the 25-year-old woman’s unborn child, a son named Jaxx. This was possible because Missouri law defines life — and legal rights — as beginning at conception.

In turn, the lawyers representing the state argued that, since Jaxx was considered a person, his case should be dismissed because under workers’ compensation laws he met the definition of an employee.

“That’s just disgusting,” said Tonya Musskopf, Anderson’s mother. “Who would have known what he would have grown into? His whole life was ahead of him.”

What wasn’t in question from either side was the idea that the 6-month-old fetus had legal rights under Missouri law. Every state has at least some statute or case law that considers a fetus a person, according to a report from Pregnancy Justice, a nonprofit that advocates for the rights of pregnant people. The report lists Missouri among at least 10 states with personhood language that is so broad it could be interpreted to apply to all civil and criminal laws.

Around the country, state personhood definitions have often been restrained by laws protecting the right to abortions, according to Pregnancy Justice acting executive director Dana Sussman, because together they create an inherent inconsistency: How could a fetus be a person if abortion is legal? But now that abortion rights are no longer federally protected, personhood definitions could expand throughout state law.

“States have more leverage and leeway to tread in these waters,” said John Seago, president of Texas Right to Life, a group that opposes abortion.

The U.S. Supreme Court’s 1973 decision in Roe v. Wade, which protected abortion rights, stated that the word “person” did not include the unborn for the purposes of individual rights such as equal protection under the law. The ruling prompted a nationwide push to grant more rights to fetuses, according to Laura Hermer, a visiting professor at St. Louis University School of Law.

Among states, Missouri’s recognition of personhood for fetuses was early and consequential.

Here, a 1986 law to regulate abortion included a preamble that defined life as beginning at conception. Three years later, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Missouri’s definition could stand since it was merely a “value judgment.” A Missouri Supreme Court ruling in 1995 opened the door for the definition to apply to all Missouri statutes.

Still, Sussman noted, Missouri courts have not applied personhood to every state statute.

In 2018, a Missouri man unsuccessfully attempted to appeal his conviction for child molestation by arguing the state’s personhood language required the court to calculate the age of the victim from conception, not birth, which would have made her above the statutory age limit. Sussman said it’s an example of how the limits of broad personhood language are tested.

“People will start to utilize that and figure out ways to have it benefit their particular circumstances,” Sussman said.

That type of boundary-pushing, Sussman said, is invited by inconsistencies in the law, like those created by the U.S. Supreme Court’s Dobbs decision last summer, which overturned Roe v. Wade without addressing the question of when personhood rights begin.

The Dobbs ruling gives states the power to regulate abortion, and in Texas it triggered an abortion law that defines an unborn child as an “individual living member of the homo sapiens species from fertilization until birth.” Just days later, a Texas woman was given a ticket for driving in the carpool lane despite arguing that her unborn daughter counted as a second person in the vehicle.

“One law is saying that this is a baby and now he’s telling me this baby that’s jabbing my ribs is not a baby,” she said of the officer who gave her the ticket. That ticket and a second one she got for a similar incident the next month were ultimately dismissed.

Another legal boundary was pushed in early April when a U.S. District Judge in Texas ruled that the FDA had improperly approved the common abortion drug mifepristone. The judge noted that part of the ruling’s analysis “arguably applies to the unborn humans extinguished by mifepristone — especially in the post-Dobbs era.” The Supreme Court has blocked the ruling, for now.

Seago said these kinds of legal tests are important.

“That’s the phase that we’re at after undoing a court precedent that had been there for almost 50 years,” Seago said. “We’re encouraged that it’s forcing these important questions, like, ‘What do we owe our unborn neighbors?’”

But Sussman worries about an increase in criminal charges filed against pregnant people. Pregnancy Justice filed a brief in a 2021 court case challenging an Arizona law that granted personhood rights to unborn children “at every stage of development.”

Citing Missouri as a cautionary tale, the brief asserts not a single woman was arrested in the state in relation to her pregnancy before the Supreme Court allowed Missouri’s personhood language to stand. The years that followed, however, brought at least 39 arrests of women “for being pregnant and subjecting ‘unborn children’ to perceived risks of harm including drinking alcohol, smoking marijuana, or drinking tea made with mint and marijuana leaves to treat morning sickness.”

The Arizona law was blocked, at least temporarily.

Texas’ new abortion case law has yet to play out, but Seago anticipated it would follow the pattern established for child abuse, in which the accused can defend themselves by establishing they didn’t intend to cause harm.

“There’s no accidental abortion in Texas,” Seago said.

In Missouri, wrongful death claims for unborn children have been allowed since the 1995 state Supreme Court ruling.

Anderson’s family filed a wrongful death lawsuit in St. Louis County in 2022 against the driver, the Missouri Highways and Transportation Commission — which governs the Department of Transportation — and several of Anderson’s supervisors.

The state’s attorneys argued that Jaxx, like his mother, met the definition of an “employee” under Missouri workers’ compensation law, which includes an employee’s dependents in the event the employee is dead. Because Jaxx’s rights under Missouri law began at his conception, the filing read, he should be considered Anderson’s dependent. That would prevent a wrongful death suit brought against the Department of Transportation on Jaxx’s behalf.

“Who the hell would argue that someone who hasn’t been born works for them and is a dependent?” said Andrew Mundwiller, the attorney representing Anderson’s family. “I would say it stretches the bounds of the law.”

Theresa Otto, an attorney representing the Department of Transportation, declined to comment about the case, saying the department does not comment on active litigation.

St. Louis University School of Law professor Michael Duff, who has written a book on workers’ compensation law, said this type of case was, “thankfully,” rare. But he did find nine cases nationwide since 1985 that examined whether workers’ compensation laws barred suits against companies for injuries sustained in utero. In each case, the answer was no and the lawsuit continued.

On March 29, Judge Joseph Dueker, who was assigned the case in St. Louis County Circuit Court in Clayton, issued a similar ruling in Jaxx’s case, writing that barring Jaxx’s claims would lead to an “extremely absurd result.” A trial is set for March 2024.

Sussman, of Pregnancy Justice, said broad personhood language would allow legal boundaries to be pushed until state legislatures act to clarify the laws.

The case in Missouri prompted the introduction of a bill in the state legislature, dubbed “Jaxx’s Law,” that would bar unborn children from being considered employees in any civil actions, including wrongful death lawsuits.

But they would still be considered people with legal rights.
 
Seems like a good place for a specific brand of MAGA conservative to setup shop.


This seems like a really good idea. They should also be granted Russian citizenship.
 
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Conservatives purport to be for "law and order." That's a lie.

This connie rat Cernobitch is responding to a message that indicates Daniel Penny is in custody for and charged with manslaughter in the second degree for likely causing the death of Jordan Neely on the New York City Subway by sustaining a chokehold approximately fifteen minutes, per witness statement, during which Neely, also per witness statement, had voided his bowels prior to succumbing to the maneuver. The message to which this connie rat is responding also indicates that Penny faces a maximum of fifteen years incarceration if convicted.

A lynching is a usually extrajudicial killing, usually by mob, usually by hanging. Conviction in a court of law on charges that one perpetrated an offense that meets the statutory definition and a penalty of carceral detention not exceeding that which is prescribed is not lynching. It's literally law and order.

Jordan Neely was no angel. Neely had been arrested on multiple occasions and had been, on multiple occasions, involuntarily committed to the custody of the state. Neely was mentally ill. Prior to meeting his end, Neely is said to have been using loud, course, and possibly "threatening" language. Speech alone, even if said speech may not be protected against prosecution because it meets a high standard for exclusion from that which is protected, does not constitute a legitimate threat justifying violent action. In the event that said speech was deemed to not be protected against prosecution, the penalty upon conviction in a court of law, which Neely didn't get, is unlikely to be death.

Though it isn't actually an accurate description, Neely's death is more accurately described as a lynching than what Daniel Penny faces for killing him.

To answer Fleischman's question, yes, and the second one. Per Wilhoit's law, "conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." The conservative position here would seem to be that Daniel Penny is protected by the law but not bound by it.

I said above that conservatives purporting to be for "law and order" is a lie, but it happens that conservatives are quite accustomed to lying. This connie rat Cernobitch was among those who perpetuated the falsehood that individuals representing the political opposition were responsible in part for a child sexual abuse ring being run out of the basement of a Washington DC pizza and gaming parlor occupying a property that doesn't even have a basement.

Edit: Predictable.

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Modern American conservatism is mental illness.
 
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Per Wilhoit's law, "conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
I posted his law earlier but @Danoff thinks that isn't conservatism and would be more accurately described as authoritarianism. It's hard to tell the difference these days, though. As also discussed earlier in the thread, there's a real out-group/in-group thing going on with MAGA. It should be called MOAGA for "our".
 
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I posted his law earlier but @Danoff thinks that isn't conservatism and would be more accurately described as authoritarianism. It's hard to tell the difference these days, though. As also discussed earlier in the thread, there's a real out-group/in-group thing going on with MAGA. It should be called MOAGA for "our".
I think it maybe shouldn't describe conservatism. To @Danoff's point, it certainly describes authoritarianism, especially that which is driven by ideology rather than authoritarian tendency alone, but I don't think anything fits that--and therefore the "law"--quite like the particular brand of conservatism so prevalent in the United States. I think progressive authoritarianism would have to follow the same pattern but I don't see it as common, especially in governance upon which the supposed protection and binding by law depends.
 
Certainly support for censorship and prohibition of that which is deemed to be indecent or obscene--despite absence of legitimate harm--is fundamental to conservatism, particularly social conservatism. It goes back to subjective morality and enforcement thereof. And while state enforcement of subjective morality is conservative in nature, social campaigns with censorial or prohibitive ends are assured to qualify.
Hmmm, so I guess it's a conservative position....but it's probably held by a wide swathe of the population including many non-conservatives.
 
Hmmm, so I guess it's a conservative position..
Amazing, right?
..but it's probably held by a wide swathe of the population including many non-conservatives.
This is not a substantive point. It's also a logical fallacy--argumentum ad populum.

That which is "indecent" or "obscene" is subjective. That they're subjective is even affirmed by United States Supreme Court precedent relevant to obscenity as being outside that which is protected by the First Amendment where it, as in Miller v. California (1973), established "community standards" as part of a test for determining whether material is obscene. Because that which is "indecent" or "obscene" is subjective, it can't be said to result in legitimate harm. Offense isn't harm.

As I said, this bears significant resemblance to "political correctness" (BOO!) which figures prominently in many a conservative bitchfit.
 
Amazing, right?

This is not a substantive point. It's also a logical fallacy--argumentum ad populum.

That which is "indecent" or "obscene" is subjective. That they're subjective is even affirmed by United States Supreme Court precedent relevant to obscenity as being outside that which is protected by the First Amendment where it, as in Miller v. California (1973), established "community standards" as part of a test for determining whether material is obscene. Because that which is "indecent" or "obscene" is subjective, it can't be said to result in legitimate harm. Offense isn't harm.

As I said, this bears significant resemblance to "political correctness" (BOO!) which figures prominently in many a conservative bitchfit.
My point wasn't that it's right or wrong because of the amount offended.

Rather if people are, or should be, as equally dismissive about their outburst as the Bud fiasco. It's easy to go "lol, conservatives" (and kinda fun) in response to the inane things true conservatives rebel over but people can't really apply that label so easily in this case.

And then I wonder that if there was a similar reaction to their outcry, would society's view change.
 
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lol

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And what is it that has their knickers all knotted to the point that they spew such inanity regarding consumption of light beer and the supposed manliness thereof?



I'm not up on all the trans influencers, so forgive me if I don't recognize any of them here. Unless...they're not trans?

My point wasn't that it's right or wrong because of the amount offended.
It may not have been the point that you intended to convey but it's what you conveyed regardless.
Rather if people are, or should be, as equally dismissive about their outburst as the Bud fiasco. It's easy to go "lol, conservatives" (and kinda fun) in response to the inane things true conservatives rebel over but people can't really apply that label so easily in this case.
I'd suggest that it's plenty easy--and not unreasonable--to refer to one who holds a conservative viewpoint as a conservative for the purpose of discussing that viewpoint.

That said, I'm not aware that I've referred to an individual or group as being conservative when discussing particular conservative bitchfits (which is to say that bitchfits are founded upon conservative viewpoint, not that they're being thrown by conservatives), and have only done so when a particular individual may be reasonably said to hold a variety of conservative views.

A bitchfit over "indecency" or "obscenity" in specific media, absent legitimate harm, is conservative in nature (as you've conceded) and thus may reasonably be referred to as a conservative bitchfit. That it's a bitchfit is to say that it's irrational, in this case because "indecency" and "obscenity" don't in and of themselves represent legitimate harm.

And then I wonder that if there was a similar reaction to their outcry, would society's view change.
A supposed effort to affect viewpoint may be admirable, as difficult as the task may be when it's rooted in the emotional old brain instead of the young brain which may be more easily penetrated by reason, but it's not what I'm going for. I'm not looking to fix. I'm looking to mock.
 
So I just posted that in a different thread, where most of the material discussion has taken place, but there is part of it that I want to highlight here because it's relevant and poignant.
Heritage Foundation President Kevin Roberts lauds DeSantis for the governor's willingness to wield the power of the state against private businesses.

"This is our moment to demand that our politicians use the power they have. This is the moment for us to demand of companies, whether they're Google, or Facebook, or Disney, that you listen to us, rather than ram down our throats and into our own families all of the garbage that you've been pushing on us," Roberts tells Devlin. "This is our time to demand that you do what we say. And it's glorious."

There may never be a more concise and apt description of what Reason's Stephanie Slade calls "will-to-power conservatism" than those few sentences. And, coming from the president of the Heritage Foundation, those words carry extra weight. This is no longer a fringe idea within the conservative milieu; it is the viewpoint of the Republican establishment and the calling card of one of the leading Republican governors in the country.
 
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lol

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And what is it that has their knickers all knotted to the point that they spew such inanity regarding consumption of light beer and the supposed manliness thereof?



I'm not up on all the trans influencers, so forgive me if I don't recognize any of them here. Unless...they're not trans?

It may not have been the point that you intended to convey but it's what you conveyed regardless.

I'd suggest that it's plenty easy--and not unreasonable--to refer to one who holds a conservative viewpoint as a conservative for the purpose of discussing that viewpoint.

That said, I'm not aware that I've referred to an individual or group as being conservative when discussing particular conservative bitchfits (which is to say that bitchfits are founded upon conservative viewpoint, not that they're being thrown by conservatives), and have only done so when a particular individual may be reasonably said to hold a variety of conservative views.

A bitchfit over "indecency" or "obscenity" in specific media, absent legitimate harm, is conservative in nature (as you've conceded) and thus may reasonably be referred to as a conservative bitchfit. That it's a bitchfit is to say that it's irrational, in this case because "indecency" and "obscenity" don't in and of themselves represent legitimate harm.

A supposed effort to affect viewpoint may be admirable, as difficult as the task may be when it's rooted in the emotional old brain instead of the young brain which may be more easily penetrated by reason, but it's not what I'm going for. I'm not looking to fix. I'm looking to mock.

So is conservatism always wrong?

Looking for an answer to that question I found this:


And was particularly interested by:

Precisely because they lose, however, it’s forgotten that conservatives have repeatedly taken positions that no one but a crank would even try to defend today. Conservatism perversely benefits from its own failures: Because its past arguments were beaten back and its fierce resistance overcome, we don’t hear those arguments anymore. They’ve faded into history, and we have to study history even to know they were once made

Will those objecting to Rape Day in the present day be judged harshly in years to come (or even at this moment)?
 
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So is conservatism always wrong?

No. But it always opposes progress. So it's wrong on all progress. Conservatism is only correct when it's protecting something we're doing right.

Conservatism stems simultaneously from hubris in the form of reverence for the brilliance of the elderly and ancestral (often themselves), while simultaneously displaying distain for the intellect of youth or the innovative. The idea is that if it's old it's right, and if it's new it's wrong. This is reinforced via confirmation bias. A lot of new ideas are wrong, or go through a growing pain period. It's easy to get into the intellectual trap that new ideas are therefore wrong inherently and the people pursuing them are stupid. And this reinforces the idea that the elderly or ancestral were somehow brilliant - because only the ideas that stuck around are used to judge them. The growing pains or missteps that didn't get adopted are ignored.

It would be easy to look at cryptocurrency for example, or NFTs, or self-driving car crashes, and conclude that new = bad. It's similarly easy to look at an idea like freedom of speech or the abolition of slavery and think that our ancestors were geniuses. They had a lot of bad ideas, even with regard to slavery, freedom of speech, and the treatment of natives - but some of their ideas have stuck around and make them look good as a group if you ignore the other stuff. Similarly, is there any question that some form of digital currency and self-driving vehicle will not ultimately survive? I think it's a foregone conclusion that it will.

Conservatism is, by its nature, wrong most of the time. That's because the ideas and ideals that we have that are perfect are very few. Conservatism is not wrong to protect those from change, but if it's an ideology, it fights against every other form of progress, which is all of the ultimately successful social and economic development.

In my thread on humanity's greatest minds, I found myself having to ignore a plethora of wrong from even our most brilliant individuals in order to recognize the people that created the cornerstones of modern society.

Edit:

I based all of this on the idea that a single conservative person being always wrong. Which is think is a reasonable approach. A less reasonable approach would be to discuss the ideology of conservatism as a whole, in which case it has opposed all progress of any kind at some point. Take anything good, and a conservative at some time has opposed it. The converse is true though as well. Take anything good and a progressive has at some time wanted to ruin it.
 
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It's infuriating to me that this cockroach of a senator is willing to destroy the life of a human being for no other reason than because he wants to be president and needs to score points with the base.
 
No. But it always opposes progress. So it's wrong on all progress. Conservatism is only correct when it's protecting something we're doing right.

Conservatism stems simultaneously from hubris in the form of reverence for the brilliance of the elderly and ancestral (often themselves), while simultaneously displaying distain for the intellect of youth or the innovative. The idea is that if it's old it's right, and if it's new it's wrong. This is reinforced via confirmation bias. A lot of new ideas are wrong, or go through a growing pain period. It's easy to get into the intellectual trap that new ideas are therefore wrong inherently and the people pursuing them are stupid. And this reinforces the idea that the elderly or ancestral were somehow brilliant - because only the ideas that stuck around are used to judge them. The growing pains or missteps that didn't get adopted are ignored.

It would be easy to look at cryptocurrency for example, or NFTs, or self-driving car crashes, and conclude that new = bad. It's similarly easy to look at an idea like freedom of speech or the abolition of slavery and think that our ancestors were geniuses. They had a lot of bad ideas, even with regard to slavery, freedom of speech, and the treatment of natives - but some of their ideas have stuck around and make them look good as a group if you ignore the other stuff. Similarly, is there any question that some form of digital currency and self-driving vehicle will not ultimately survive? I think it's a foregone conclusion that it will.

Conservatism is, by its nature, wrong most of the time. That's because the ideas and ideals that we have that are perfect are very few. Conservatism is not wrong to protect those from change, but if it's an ideology, it fights against every other form of progress, which is all of the ultimately successful social and economic development.

In my thread on humanity's greatest minds, I found myself having to ignore a plethora of wrong from even our most brilliant individuals in order to recognize the people that created the cornerstones of modern society.

Edit:

I based all of this on the idea that a single conservative person being always wrong. Which is think is a reasonable approach. A less reasonable approach would be to discuss the ideology of conservatism as a whole, in which case it has opposed all progress of any kind at some point. Take anything good, and a conservative at some time has opposed it. The converse is true though as well. Take anything good and a progressive has at some time wanted to ruin it.
This is also pretty much how I look at conservatism. For me I would relabel it as "Regressivism".
 
It's infuriating to me that this cockroach of a senator is willing to destroy the life of a human being for no other reason than because he wants to be president and needs to score points with the base.
You’re thinking of DeSantis (or maybe Abbott). Cruz has no shot at President.


I get the confusion, though. We have a lot of ******** here in the South that they blend together.
 
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