Conservatism

[Populuxe]

If the person has (2) and (3) and is not a terrorist UNLESS they're Hispanic, that's labeling Hispanic people terrorists. Keyboard warrior missed the point entirely.

Exactly. That bill specifically states if I am in a criminal gang and have been convicted of a gang-related offense, I am not a terrorist because (and only because) I am not Hispanic. The bill is racist AF. It's hilarious watching the "I'm not a racist but" types tying themselves into knots trying to defend this nakedly racist bill. Or it would be if we weren't watching grown-ass people openly defending racism and thinking they're some sort of hero instead of the chicken-**** cowards that all racists are.

 

[Yard_Sale]

...but not on the basis of being hispanic. It'd need to be on the basis of... well... terrorism don't you think? Rather than skin color or genetic lineage?

Not knowing about any of the intricacies of this, my guess is that they’re tying it “Hispanic” to keep the statute as broad as possible. MS13 has been labeled in court as a “terrorist organization” in a number of places, including New York. And as history has shown time and time again, you eradicate one terrorist group (in this case MS13), they’ll just reappear as something else.

Make no mistake, MS13 is 100% an organized domestic terror group (and international, for that matter). And they are Hispanic.

If this statute does get used for anything other than going after these cartels/gangs as hard a possible - then I will agree that it’s flat wrong. But I don’t think that will happen being that Oklahoma relies on a large Hispanic population to function.

IMO, it doesn’t read racist at all - under the assumption it’s intended for MS13, and similar groups.

 

[TB]

@Yard_Sale - Take this MS13 you're hung up on out of the equation. The bill flat out says "any person who is of Hispanic descent living within the state of Oklahoma".

That's the purest definition of racism, doubly so since it's the first "requirement" to being a terrorist.

If you're a member of a gang committing offenses, race is irreverent. Or at least it should be.

 

[Danoff]

Not knowing about any of the intricacies of this, my guess is that they’re tying it “Hispanic” to keep the statute as broad as possible. MS13 has been labeled in court as a “terrorist organization” in a number of places, including New York. And as history has shown time and time again, you eradicate one terrorist group (in this case MS13), they’ll just reappear as something else.

Make no mistake, MS13 is 100% an organized domestic terror group (and international, for that matter). And they are Hispanic.

If this statute does get used for anything other than going after these cartels/gangs as hard a possible - then I will agree that it’s flat wrong. But I don’t think that will happen being that Oklahoma relies on a large Hispanic population to function.

IMO, it doesn’t read racist at all - under the assumption it’s intended for MS13, and similar groups.

That's really not how law works, or is supposed to work. Even under your very kind interpretation, it enables racism. It is the very definition of systemic racism because, and again this is even if you use your own kind interpretation, it enables racists to do racist thing legally.

Unfortunately your kind interpretation is not warranted. This law is unconstitutional, and racist, and needs to go. There is no reason that hispanic people should be treated differently under the law for the same crime than anyone else. Your interpretation is guilt by association racism.

 

[Yard_Sale]

😂



You guys are too much

 

[TB]

Profound.

 

[Yard_Sale]

That's really not how law works, or is supposed to work. Even under your very kind interpretation, it enables racism. It is the very definition of systemic racism because, and again this is even if you use your own kind interpretation, it enables racists to do racist thing legally.

Unfortunately your kind interpretation is not warranted. This law is unconstitutional, and racist, and needs to go. There is no reason that hispanic people should be treated differently under the law for the same crime than anyone else. Your interpretation is guilt by association racism.

The world isn’t all flowers and daisy’s my friend. If you had any first hand knowledge and experience of how these enterprises operate, you’d know that.


Like I said, if this statute is used for anything other than prosecuting criminal enterprises, than I will lock arms with you 😎

 

[Danoff]

The world isn’t all flowers and daisy’s my friend. If you had any first hand knowledge and experience of how these enterprises operate, you’d know that.


Like I said, if this statute is used for anything other than prosecuting criminal enterprises, than I will lock arms with you 😎

That's not how statutes work. If it is the law, it is the law. It is not up to the police to decide which laws to enforce or the courts to decide which laws to pay attention to. If that were the case, we no longer have law, but authoritarianism.

Your take on this sounds like wisdom to you, but to the rest of us it lacks wisdom in a very serious and very well worn way.

 

[Yard_Sale]

That's not how statutes work. If it is the law, it is the law. It is not up to the police to decide which laws to enforce or the courts to decide which laws to pay attention to. If that were the case, we no longer have law, but authoritarianism.

Your take on this sounds like wisdom to you, but to the rest of us it lacks wisdom in a very serious and very well worn way.

Yes, my interpretation of what Oklahoma is doing is wisdom, combined with first hand experience. That much we can agree on


Shoddy laws and statutes are the tools of all states, no matter what color they are

 

[Danoff]

Yes, my interpretation of what Oklahoma is doing is wisdom, combined with first hand experience. That much we can agree on


Shoddy laws and statutes are the tools of all states, no matter what color they are

Shoddy laws and statutes are the tools of many people... racist, authoritarians, criminals who wish to shield themselves... any number of people who would abuse power. To anyone who wishes to abuse power, a bad law is a gift. This is a bad law. It is unconstitutional (violates equal protection), but what's more, it's unconstitutional for a very good reason, and a reason that US history is full of examples of. Draw your wisdom from the history of this country's policing.

 

[McLaren]

Not knowing about any of the intricacies of this, my guess is that they’re tying it “Hispanic” to keep the statute as broad as possible. MS13 has been labeled in court as a “terrorist organization” in a number of places, including New York. And as history has shown time and time again, you eradicate one terrorist group (in this case MS13), they’ll just reappear as something else.

Make no mistake, MS13 is 100% an organized domestic terror group (and international, for that matter). And they are Hispanic.

If this statute does get used for anything other than going after these cartels/gangs as hard a possible - then I will agree that it’s flat wrong. But I don’t think that will happen being that Oklahoma relies on a large Hispanic population to function.

IMO, it doesn’t read racist at all - under the assumption it’s intended for MS13, and similar groups.

The issue here is that MS13 is not even the worse gang in Oklahoma; Homeland once said it did not see a significant amount there. As far as I'm still aware, the Surenos are still a more prevalent gang in Oklahoma.

Second off, the bill's lawmaker's words don't match the bill.

Rep. Humphrey said Chinese Nationals and Mexican cartels are to blame for Oklahoma’s fentanyl problem, and yet people of Chinese descent are not mentioned in the bill. Only people of Hispanic descent are listed.

Rep. Humphrey plans to change the language from ‘Hispanic’ to ‘undocumented illegals’ in the bill.

https://kfor.com/news/oklahoma-legislature/i-was-not-wrong-ok-lawmaker-introduces-bill-to-label-hispanic-gang-members-terrorists/

He said he plans to change it to "undocumented illegals", yet that doesn't do much to boost the idea of keeping statute "broad as possible". In your example of choosing MS13, two stings once found that 70% of MS13 members caught were legal citizens.

5) In the United States, the MS-13 includes many U.S. citizens and legal residents.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) recently carried out two large-scale operations targeting many gangs, including MS-13 and others, such as the Bloods. According to May 12 reports, ICE arrested 1,378 individuals, of which 933 were U.S. citizens and just over 1,000 were confirmed to be a gang member or gang-affiliated. A March 2016 operation of similar size netted 1,133 individuals, of which 894 were U.S. citizens. This means that out of some 2,500 individuals caught in these two major operations, 1,800, or 70 percent, were U.S. Citizens.

Seven Facts about MS-13 and How to Combat the Gang - WOLA

In recent months the Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, gang has been placed front and center in the national U.S. immigration debate. Between four congressional hearings and much media attention, there is a lot of information, opinions, and misinformation swirling around policy circles about the...

www.wola.org

In which case, doesn't seem like changing the wording to "undocumented illegals" does much to target MS13 then, if many of them are legal residents?

But I don’t think that will happen being that Oklahoma relies on a large Hispanic population to function.

So does Texas. That hardly stops the negativity towards Hispanics & the border. 🤔

 

[Danoff]

The idea here is that if we were all just as scared of MS-13 or whatever as @Yard_Sale is, then we would agree that racist laws are needed. If this is how you act, people are more than happy to give you things to be afraid of.

 

[Imari]

Not knowing about any of the intricacies of this, my guess is that they’re tying it “Hispanic” to keep the statute as broad as possible. MS13 has been labeled in court as a “terrorist organization” in a number of places, including New York. And as history has shown time and time again, you eradicate one terrorist group (in this case MS13), they’ll just reappear as something else.

Make no mistake, MS13 is 100% an organized domestic terror group (and international, for that matter). And they are Hispanic.

Why would you make it as broad as possible if you're specifically trying to target MS13 and similar organisations? Do these organisations not have sufficient other characteristics to define them without adding in race?

If someone can't create a law that singularly targets MS13 type terrorist organisations without reference to race or nationality, they're not trying hard enough. At best it's lazy, at worst it's an attempt to slip through a racist law that can be used against Hispanics, presumably as an anti-immigrant measure.

It's unnecessary, and the response should be to get rid of the unnecessary part. Not to go "well, that could be used poorly but I bet no one ever does so we'll just let it ride".

 

[eran0004]

Without reading the whole statute, but being very familiar with what the cartel/gang MS13 is capable of, and how they operate - this move by Oklahoma seems to be aimed directly at them. MS13 has been making a nationwide push for quite sometime now, and they wreck havoc on every community they set up shop, with the vast majority of them coming illegally across the southern border, and recruit domestically.

Assuming this does have to do with MS13 and gangs like them, it’s 100% appropriate to label them as terrorists

The bill criminalises an ethnicity - not an action. It says that it’s a crime to have been convicted of a crime, but only if you are of Hispanic descent.

 

[Yard_Sale]

Why would you make it as broad as possible if you're specifically trying to target MS13 and similar organisations? Do these organisations not have sufficient other characteristics to define them without adding in race?

If someone can't create a law that singularly targets MS13 type terrorist organisations without reference to race or nationality, they're not trying hard enough. At best it's lazy, at worst it's an attempt to slip through a racist law that can be used against Hispanics, presumably as an anti-immigrant measure.

It's unnecessary, and the response should be to get rid of the unnecessary part. Not to go "well, that could be used poorly but I bet no one ever does so we'll just let it ride".

Then how would YOU go about drafting a statute to be as encompassing as possible to target terrorist organizations like MS13 that are 100% Hispanic, without eradicating one group in said state just to have them resurface as something else?

Honestly curious.





…Not saying I agree with the wording, but I agree with what they’re trying to do. And it’s not like they’re getting an abundance of help from the federal government - forcing them to take matters into their own hands

The idea here is that if we were all just as scared of MS-13 or whatever as @Yard_Sale is, then we would agree that racist laws are needed. If this is how you act, people are more than happy to give you things to be afraid of.

Sounds like you don’t live in a world where gangs affect you personally, or those you love. Must be nice 👍🏼




Sure you haven’t seen a lot of dead bodies either

 

[Liquid]

@Yard_Sale If you looked up your family tree and found a Hispanic great-grandfather, or your parents sat you down and told you the truth about your adoption, you would automatically be a terrorist in the eyes of Oklahoma.

Michael Brooks-Jiminez is a member of Oklahoma's Senate. His mother is a Mexican-American. They are both terrorists under this proposal.

Admit your racism or bore off somewhere else.

 

[Exorcet]

target terrorist organizations like MS13 that are 100% Hispanic, without eradicating one group in said state just to have them resurface as something else?

That sounds like something this bill might enable by giving a free pass to organizations that don't meet its first arbitrary criteria. The person behind this even admitted that the bill won't target major organizations in the state.

Sounds like you don’t live in a world where gangs affect you personally, or those you love. Must be nice 👍🏼

Whether someone is or isn't affected by gangs, this bill does nothing to protect them.

 

[eran0004]

Then how would YOU go about drafting a statute to be as encompassing as possible to target terrorist organizations like MS13 that are 100% Hispanic, without eradicating one group in said state just to have them resurface as something else?

Honestly curious.

Easy. Criminalise membership in criminal gangs. Why is there a need for criminalising Hispanic gang members specifically? The ethnicity is not a crime.

A side note, how do you legally define “Hispanic descent” so that it encompasses all members of MS13? Not only is it racist, it’s also very vague. How would a prosecutor be able to prove that an accused is of Hispanic descent?

Sounds like you don’t live in a world where gangs affect you personally, or those you love. Must be nice 👍🏼

Sure you haven’t seen a lot of dead bodies either

So it’s better to be shot or stabbed by a non-Hispanic gang member?

 

[Danoff]

Sounds like you don’t live in a world where gangs affect you personally, or those you love. Must be nice 👍🏼

Sure you haven’t seen a lot of dead bodies either

Look, I get that you're scared and that you want me to be. It's not worth ignoring the constitution and making hispanic lineage a compounding factor in a crime. We do not, and should not, ruin our country just because we're scared, lazy, or a combination of the two. If you're willing to cave to this kind of fear, you make your fear profitable to others - and they will be happy to give you more things to be afraid of.

 

[McLaren]

Lol, once again, this idea of it targeting MS13 completely falls apart bc the lawmaker is changing it from “Hispanic” to “Undocumented Immigrants”. MS13 however, is a US-born gang & a gigantic portion of its members are US citizens.

Don’t let sources keep you from trying to bring up an argument that won’t work when the bill changes.

 

[Yard_Sale]

Oh man, you guys are too much, and missing the point of what I was saying. I think I covered my bases when I said I don’t agree with the language. I think I covered my bases when I said if this was used for anything other than criminal persecution, it’s wrong.


Judging by all of your guys responses, you don’t have a first-person lens on areas that are infested with gangs - and your knowledge is what you might read or see on TV. That’s fine, whatever.


@Liquid, demanding that I admit I’m racist when you know nothing about meis one of the most hilarious things that I’ve woken up to today. But the day is young, we shall see if it’s topped.

@Danoff, am I personally cared for my safety, no. Not unless they make a push into my neighborhood…which they won’t. I could care less if you’re scared or not, nor am I trying to sway anyone’s opinion about ANYTHING. But being that I have worked in these communities that are ravaged by gang violence and activity (yes, including areas that are entirely ran by MS13) for the past 20 years, it’s a bit personal for me because I’ve seen first hand what they do, and how they do it. My lens is different from most of you guys it seems.


It doesn’t surprise me that a large percentage of MS13 members are legal citizens. I mean, they started in California by way of El Salvador, and recruit from within the country by way of many avenues. But being that the border is essentially open right now, with many of them coming from Central America, who knows what the percentages are now.

 

[Famine]

I'm sure that there's a word that describes a situation where the state treats two people who commit the exact same crime differently based on their race.

I mean, there must be.

 

[Danoff]

Oh man, you guys are too much, and missing the point of what I was saying. I think I covered my bases when I said I don’t agree with the language. I think I covered my bases when I said if this was used for anything other than criminal persecution, it’s wrong.

I understood that. Giving the power to authorities to do what they want with these laws and trusting to their restraint is authoritarianism. It doesn't work (and it has been tried often).

@Danoff, am I personally cared for my safety, no. Not unless they make a push into my neighborhood…which they won’t. I could care less if you’re scared or not, nor am I trying to sway anyone’s opinion about ANYTHING. But being that I have worked in these communities that are ravaged by gang violence and activity (yes, including areas that are entirely ran by MS13) for the past 20 years, it’s a bit personal for me because I’ve seen first hand what they do, and how they do it. My lens is different from most of you guys it seems.

We're supposed to be so afraid of what this gang does to these people or whatever that we light the constitution on fire and hope our police are nice. No thanks. Your personal experience is harrowing I'm sure. It doesn't convince me to let go of fundamental principles like human rights and equal protection.

It doesn’t surprise me that a large percentage of MS13 members are legal citizens. I mean, they started in California by way of El Salvador, and recruit from within the country by way of many avenues. But being that the border is essentially open right now, with many of them coming from Central America, who knows what the percentages are now.

So being a legal immigrant is now being an illegal immigrant in your mind. Awesome.

 

[TB]

Oh man, you guys are too much, and missing the point of what I was saying.

And you're missing the point of what everyone else is saying.

According to this bill, if a Hispanic person and an Asian person commit the same crime, the Hispanic person will be labelled a terrorist and the Asian won't.

Once again, that... is... racism.

 

[Brett]

…Not saying I agree with the wording, but I agree with what they’re trying to do. And it’s not like they’re getting an abundance of help from the federal government - forcing them to take matters into their own hands

Until something directly impacts them, our "enlightened" leaders in Oklahoma are trying their best to turn federal help away at every given chance. No matter the hand wringing and mental gymnastics the writers of the bill go through, it is absolutely meant to be racist.

 

[McLaren]

I’m not sure why Conservatives in this section like trying to throw in recently, “Well, I have first hand experience, you guys don’t.”

My brother, I was born in Oklahoma. My family lives in Oklahoma. At this very moment, I am in Oklahoma on family issue.

Bringing up MS13 in regards to a bill in Oklahoma targeting Hispanics as domestic terrorists if they commit a particular crime, baffles me. There are other gangs in this state with a bigger presence & more common issues. Would it target the Surenos, I can see that but they’re already deep in the prison system with their control.

 

[Yard_Sale]

I’m not sure why Conservatives in this section like trying to throw in recently, “Well, I have first hand experience, you guys don’t.”

My brother, I was born in Oklahoma. My family lives in Oklahoma. At this very moment, I am in Oklahoma on family issue.

Bringing up MS13 in regards to a bill in Oklahoma targeting Hispanics as domestic terrorists if they commit a particular crime, baffles me. There are other gangs in this state with a bigger presence & more common issues. Would it target the Surenos, I can see that but they’re already deep in the prison system with their control.

Like I said when I first posted, I don’t know the particulars, but it read to me like they were aiming to go directly after MS13 and gangs like them. Also said the language was vague too. They could have very good reasons for the vague language too….and yes, some of those reasons might be sinister. If anything has been proven time and time again throughout the United States, it’s only illegal to break the law, if said jurisdiction chooses to enforce said law to the fullest extent. Until we see how Oklahoma actually implements said statute, it’s all speculation until then.
But you’re never going to change my personal opinion that states, counties, ect. should do whatever they have to do in order to eradicate gangs like these, of any race, as much as they possibly can. And no, I’m not trying to change anyone’s personal opinion on the matter, either.

My family roots are in Oklahoma too. Norman, and Lake Thunderbird to be exact. I was just there a few weeks ago visiting family after the Alamo bowl in San Antonio. From the many times I’ve been to Oklahoma, I’ve never really seen gangs as a major issue there, like in other states. But I’m sure that’s most in part because I was mostly in the rural parts. Waaaaay more rednecks and Natives than Mexicans……and the non-existent Asian population 🙄

 

[Exorcet]

Judging by all of your guys responses, you don’t have a first-person lens on areas that are infested with gangs


demanding that I admit I’m racist when you know nothing about meis one of the most hilarious things that I’ve woken up to today. But the day is young, we shall see if it’s topped.

So you know everything about the people you're talking to from reading a few posts and no one knows anything about you from reading your posts. That sounds inconsistent.

aiming to go directly after MS13 and gangs like them.

But not gangs slightly different than them, apparently. Why not?

 

[TexRex]

That's really not how law works, or is supposed to work.

Indeed overbreadth doctrine is a thing in constitutional jurisprudence.

I think

Found the problem!

 

[Danoff]

If anything has been proven time and time again throughout the United States, it’s only illegal to break the law, if said jurisdiction chooses to enforce said law to the fullest extent.

No, it's still illegal, just compounded with corruption.

Until we see how Oklahoma actually implements said statute, it’s all speculation until then.

We're not speculating. The text actually exists.

In America, the law doesn't say "the police get to do whatever they need or want to do". I don't know how to make that any clearer. That kind of thinking is the basis of North Korea. We don't just have laws here, we have laws against certain laws. Those are the most important ones.

But you’re never going to change my personal opinion that states, counties, ect. should do whatever they have to do in order to eradicate gangs like these, of any race, as much as they possibly can. And no, I’m not trying to change anyone’s personal opinion on the matter, either.

Authoritarian through and through. I do understand your desire to hand the keys over to people that tell you what you want to hear. But thankfully, you cannot, because thankfully we have the bill of rights which says quite clearly to your desire to rid the US of its most important principles... "no".