Could More Single-Seater Formula Cars Enhance the Racing Appeal of Gran Turismo?

[JohnBM01]

This is not a wish list. I'm asking if having more formula cars can enhance the racing appeal of Gran Turismo. Please note that I'm not specifically talking about the Formula One cars. I'm talking about various other formula cars. It is often said that real race cars don't have fenders. Single-seat formula cars represent some of the most capable race cars with performance characteristics unrivaled by most production cars. Mastering these cars across a variety of courses can help enhance racing skills. Racing these machines are an extra bit challenging because of the fact that since there are no fenders, it's almost too easy to screw up racing these machines. You know... a front tire connects with the back tierods of another formula car, slapping a wall with a front or rear tire isn't very fun, and that kind of thing. Formula One cars in GT can be amazing to race. However, would more single-seat formula cars enhance the racing appeal of GT? And what kinds of formula cars would keep the racing fresh?

Instead, I'm referring (or at least trying to refer) to the lower-spec racing series. This includes formula cars with engines derived from production cars (like Star Mazda here in the United States) as well as some of the lower-spec formula cars. About my favorite kind of formula cars outside of Formula One are the Formula 3 cars. Maybe I'm drawing this because of my rFactor experience with the rF3 deal. The F3 cars are usually about 200+ horsepower with the huge air intake on the side. There are a number of Formula 3 series worldwide. Really sad there's no Formula 3 series in the United States. Then too, go see the SCCA Runoffs. A variety of formula cars race around to become National Champions. The most diverse class of formula cars is the Formula 500 series where you'll see a number of various bodystyles. Check out some of the Novakar formula cars, for example. Think about it like this... some of the lower-spec formula cars probably don't cost an arm and a leg to get a car. I've heard of some formula cars that cost $50,000 or less. Older formula race cars can be 50K or less. I still think having a blank race car is just enough rather than significant models (unless you're wanting to show off more actual F1 cars)

Do you think more varieties of formula race cars will help the pure racing aspect of GT? By the way... do you realize I went through this entire introduction without mentioning Formula Ford?

 

[kikie]

I'm not remotely interested in F1 cars, not even in the F1 2007. The only Formula I would like to see and drive in the GT series are the ones from the sixties, the GPL race cars.

 

[zondahelmet]

ya i'd love to race open wheel race cars from the 50s, 60s, 70s

or the porsche 550

 

[Motominded]

GT needs F1 and other open wheel racers. From the 50's Maserati 250F to a F2007.

Formula Nippon
A1GP
Formula 3000
and others.

 

[JohnBM01]

I guess my target series were more lower-spec formula cars. I really had Formula 3 as a target of inspiration for this thread. This means stuff like Formula 3, Formula BMW, Formula Ford, Formula Nissan, Formula Renault, Star Mazda, and that sort of thing. The premise behind my idea is that if Polyphony Digital will make an effort to put in F1 cars, why not pursue some of the lower-spec F1 cars? I think Formula 3 is the best formula race cars other than the GP2 cars. One of the best entry-level series for open-wheeled formula cars is Formula Ford.

I was watching Top Gear last night on BBC America, and I heard of Formula Renault and a World Series Renault car. It was for one of the Top Gear co-hosts to pilot an F1 car around a short Silverstone configuration for two laps. The first car was a Formula Renault car. The next car en route to the Renault V10 beast was a World Series by Renault car. I think the first car had about 200hp while a World Series by Renault car was about 400hp. Formula One cars are fine in GT. Thing is, I think having more of the lower-spec formula cars would help make racing fun in GT5. I even consider Formula Nippon a lower-spec series even though you can qualify for an FIA Super License to join F1. There's a slow progression with race cars. That was true in GT2 as you had a variety of race cars to use. GT3 introduced formula cars for the first time, albeit fictional cars. GT4 had only one formula car despite having quite a few in GT3. We already know we're getting a sweet Ferrari F1 car for GT5, so why not some more formula cars? Please note that "formula cars" does not necessarily mean Formula 1. Back to Formula 3 for a moment. Dallara is the most popular and successful racing constructor in Formula 3. Check out this link for more on their latest F3 car, the F306: < http://www.dallara.it/sub_page.cfm/editID/176 >.

There's another kind of formula car that I haven't mentioned yet- Indy cars. Who wouldn't want to go around Twin Ring Motegi Superspeedway being your own Dan Wheldon? Who wouldn't want to have their own Champ Car-style road racing on a tough road course or a fun street course? I still think Formula 1 is the best of all single-seaters, but Indy and Champ Cars are excellent to race. So there are a variety of formula race cars other than F1 to race in GT. Question is, will any help enhance the racing appeal and diversity of races?

 

[Motominded]

I guess my target series were more lower-spec formula cars. I really had Formula 3 as a target of inspiration for this thread. This means stuff like Formula 3, Formula BMW, Formula Ford, Formula Nissan, Formula Renault, Star Mazda, and that sort of thing. The premise behind my idea is that if Polyphony Digital will make an effort to put in F1 cars, why not pursue some of the lower-spec F1 cars? I think Formula 3 is the best formula race cars other than the GP2 cars. One of the best entry-level series for open-wheeled formula cars is Formula Ford.

I was watching Top Gear last night on BBC America, and I heard of Formula Renault and a World Series Renault car. It was for one of the Top Gear co-hosts to pilot an F1 car around a short Silverstone configuration for two laps. The first car was a Formula Renault car. The next car en route to the Renault V10 beast was a World Series by Renault car. I think the first car had about 200hp while a World Series by Renault car was about 400hp. Formula One cars are fine in GT. Thing is, I think having more of the lower-spec formula cars would help make racing fun in GT5. I even consider Formula Nippon a lower-spec series even though you can qualify for an FIA Super License to join F1. There's a slow progression with race cars. That was true in GT2 as you had a variety of race cars to use. GT3 introduced formula cars for the first time, albeit fictional cars. GT4 had only one formula car despite having quite a few in GT3. We already know we're getting a sweet Ferrari F1 car for GT5, so why not some more formula cars? Please note that "formula cars" does not necessarily mean Formula 1. Back to Formula 3 for a moment. Dallara is the most popular and successful racing constructor in Formula 3. Check out this link for more on their latest F3 car, the F306: < http://www.dallara.it/sub_page.cfm/editID/176 >.

There's another kind of formula car that I haven't mentioned yet- Indy cars. Who wouldn't want to go around Twin Ring Motegi Superspeedway being your own Dan Wheldon? Who wouldn't want to have their own Champ Car-style road racing on a tough road course or a fun street course? I still think Formula 1 is the best of all single-seaters, but Indy and Champ Cars are excellent to race. So there are a variety of formula race cars other than F1 to race in GT. Question is, will any help enhance the racing appeal and diversity of races?

There are too many junior series. It's better to focus on the main ones.....IA Formula Nippon, A1GP, and the British/Japanese F3 championships. Nippon has drivers Japan can relate to and A1GP and F3 are more international.

I think including every series will make it scattered.

The #1 Reason i want to see this is including the 4 most important races for the F3 calander.

1.FIA Inter-continental Cup at Macau.
2.Grand Prix of Pau
3.BP Ultimate Masters of Formula 3
4.Korean Superprix at Changwon.

 

[Studentdriver]

I stated this in Amar's PAL thread, but it got lost in the insanity, so I'll reiterate here:

With PD releasing Ferrari's F2007, we can perhaps expect to have a full license for A1GP, as Ferrari will be supplying the cars for the series starting next year. Also, this would supply ten new tracks to the series. I would welcome the inclusion of A1 with open arms.

 

[Motominded]

I stated this in Amar's PAL thread, but it got lost in the insanity, so I'll reiterate here:

With PD releasing Ferrari's F2007, we can perhaps expect to have a full license for A1GP, as Ferrari will be supplying the cars for the series starting next year. Also, this would supply ten new tracks to the series. I would welcome the inclusion of A1 with open arms.

hold on there.....No, just cause Ferrari has an A1GP engine and not chassis contract doesn't mean that A1GP will give their license.

Don't get me wrong, i'd love to see A1GP in GT, but just cause an engine supplier is there doesn't mean they run the series.

 

[Studentdriver]

Couldn't find anything on the main A1GP website, but I think this article from Team USA's website will do just fine.

http://www.a1teamusatv.com/news_detail.aspx?id=241

They won't be building the chassis, but they will design them.

 

[w3v3]

I personally would like to see Sony give PD use of the F1 license they make no use of.

 

[YSSMAN]

Its not a selling-point for me, personally, but a few wouldn't hurt. However, I personally feel as though I would be compelled to buy the game if it had a "complete" lineup of vintage formula cars than anything else. You know, the "glory days" of the 1960s and such...

Otherwise, its a resounding meh from me. I'm more interested in GT-style racing than anything Formula related. I'm still wondering when they'll bother to include a NASCAR COT or something like that.

 

[puppeteer]

Id love to see more open wheelers...

Even if they only have the Ferrari license it would be great to get a history of Ferrari F1 cars...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_kwxzU4wL4&feature=related
just imagine being able to play everything in the infamous Ferrari Shell ad..

I used to play a fair bit of rFactor, while i like the CTDP F1 2005 mod I frickin loved the Grand Prix 1979 one more...
slightly more human speeds, bit looser on the road, but still cool scary thoroughbred racecars.. brilliant

But yeah, there is a certain amount of logic to sony moving the F1 series to PD..
Perhaps as DLC, perhaps as a self contained download game...

making it DL might make updating the car specs as the season progresses eaiser..
or it could become almost episodic.. the cars and tracks coming out in sync with the real F1 season...

 

[Mr P510]

The more Open Wheel cars/series included the better
A1GP
F3000
F2
Formula Atlantics
Mazda Atlantics
Toyota Atlantics
Formula BMW
Formula Nippon

I'm sure I've missed some others but it would add to the depth of the game considerably.

 

[Jay]

I personally don't want too many open wheelers. I would like a few from each 'generation' of Formula 1 and thats all.

 

[GordonS]

Absolutely, but then the collision modelling must be close to real life.

 

[saviboy]

The game has been delayed enough like this. I think that PD's problems is that they want to design the ultimate game. In my opinion they are too ambitious. Not as far as the physics aspect but as far as the size of the game. formula one, then what, karting, bikes or gp2? where do we stop?
in this case they should hire more programmers.
Why dont they make a F1 game instead of integrating F1's to GT5?
I read somewhere that it takes Pd far longer to design a car in GT5 than a car in GT1. then why dont they increase the number of programmers?

 

[puppeteer]

well.. A: because people cost money and B: good people are REALLY hard to find..

But I agree, jamming every car known to man in there is madness, the game will never ship..
getting GT5 out the door is a good start, but i think they need to move back to the DLC model they talked about back when GT5 was first announced...

Get the base engine out, and deal with the cars as tracks as DLC...
some paid for (like say F1)
some as just a trickle part of the game.. maybe 2 new cars a week or something? 1 new 1 old?

bundles to coincide with the motor-shows..
new models perhaps partially subsidized by the manufacturers...

Lots of different combinations become possible once they move away from the monolithic GT4 last gen model..

 

[F1KimiFreak]

I would love to have F1 cars, A1GP cars and GP2 in it, they could as said above make it a payed download... i would buy it because dont need to buy the sole F1 game then.
It would attract a lot off gamers i think. Always found that the formula racing was too little in GT series

*bring on those 2008 f1 cars*

 

[Motominded]

Its not a selling-point for me, personally, but a few wouldn't hurt. However, I personally feel as though I would be compelled to buy the game if it had a "complete" lineup of vintage formula cars than anything else. You know, the "glory days" of the 1960s and such...

Otherwise, its a resounding meh from me. I'm more interested in GT-style racing than anything Formula related. I'm still wondering when they'll bother to include a NASCAR COT or something like that.

Nascar doesn't need to be in GT.

 

[JohnBM01]

I mentioned the "junior series" to broaden the racing perspective. Some of those are some of the best racing cars to have for drivers that don't have the huge salaries. I wanted to bring up some of the junior series to show that doing races with these lower-spec formula cars. It's why I question the possibility of adding various kinds of circuit racing cars just to enhance the racing appeal. I know there are various makes of some cars, but here would be series that would boost the open-wheel appeal:

* Go-Kart Racing - This would be crucial if the appeal is about building a racing career. The only short course that could be used for all of this would be MotorLand. Either that, or bring back GT2's Motor Sport Land (in addition to MotorLand). It's said by Memo Gidley that you can learn how to pilot a Champ Car by racing a kart. (LIKELY TO SHOW UP: Not likely)

* Formula Ford - I think this is the lowest of the true formula-type cars. The cars may look like soapbox cars with good engines, but they are usually the lowest of series. I've raced these things in ToCA RD 2 and ToCA RD 3. Pretty competitive race cars. (LIKELY TO SHOW UP: Maybe)

* Skip Barber - I heard the "rTrainer" cars in rFactor are based on Skip Barber. I say that Skip Barber is the best racing school in America. The series boasts some great racing with the cars they have devloped. I first learned of the series in about 1999 in tape-delayed coverage on ESPN2. These are great race cars for what they are. I think PD will need to try to make a special kind of racing school to be able to race these cars in a pure racing environment than something you're "forced" to do. (LIKELY TO SHOW UP: Possible/wouldn't mind)

* Formula 3 - Formula 3 is the key lower-tier series of cars I wouldn't mind seeing. I don't want it to be about classic F3 cars. Featuring Dallara would be great to enjoy Formula 3 racing. F3 is said to be the gateway to Formula 1. All cars in this year's Formula 3 are all Dallara chasses and powered by either Volkswagen or Mercedes-Benz engines. These cars are very fun to race. As someone else posted, F3's inclusion may mean acquiring a few tracks that are unique to F3. I best know Macau and Changwon (which I believe is now defunct, so Seoul may have to substitute in GT). I think it's a can't-miss series if PD tries to go after these. (LIKELY TO SHOW UP: possible)

* Indy and Champ Cars - I put the two together though they are entirely different. These are the best formula cars that aren't F1. These kinds of cars are some of the finest to race. Champ Cars (then and today) are some of the best road racing machine. I do still miss the sweet sound of Champ Cars from about the late 1990s. I do think the newer Champ Cars have great power and a nice sound to them. The only oval racing series I watch most is the IndyCar Series. Oval racing can be boring for a lot of people, but there's something to Indy Car Racing that makes it fun. They've even been noted for close racing. I've certainly seen three-wide battles to decide a race in IndyCar. I remember the classic Indy 500 finish in which Marco Andretti was going to win... until Sam Hornish Jr. darted ahead of Marco to win. There's great incentive to race these cars. They are now one series, but are still the finest formula cars that aren't F1. (LIKELY TO SHOW UP: (I'm hoping) likely)



For all of you about F1 cars, the 1960s F1 cars (like the ones in "Grand Prix Racing") are the F1 cars I wouldn't mind seeing and racing. This still isn't a wish list thread.

 

[saviboy]

well.. A: because people cost money and B: good people are REALLY hard to find..

B

good people hard to find, that makes sense and I can only agree with that. but if its a financial issue then PD is just being too ambitious and need to scale down the size of the game. In my book, it is just unacceptable to delay a game for weeks, months or even years. I have been video gaming since the 80's and a lot of the big publishers do this. (capcom, nintendo, konami, etc....and now PD)

as far as open wheels in GT5, I think they don t belong there unless they can do it in time, and PD showed that can t do that. so they should do another game like they did with tourist trophy .and thats coming from a huge F1 fan.

 

[YSSMAN]

Nascar doesn't need to be in GT.

LIES.

Its just as relevant of a sport on this side of the continent between the US, Canada and Mexico... I see absolutely no reason why an example of the COT cannot be included for each of the respective managers. It would be interesting at the very least, and very much appreciated. Furthermore, it would be a lot of fun just to run a COT against say a GT2 car, or whatever.

It likely won't happen, but nevertheless, it would be greatly appreciated.

I demand to have something such as these included if they do a collection of F1 Cars:

...etc...

Eagle, Honda, Lotus, Ferrari, all of 'em.

 

[Rykon Zero]

I want some of those cup cars like Hammond drove on Top Gear, to see how well he could drive a Formula 1. That first one.

 

[JohnBM01]

I brought up this issue to look for ways to enhance the racing appeal of GT for the super-critical people to not bash GT so much on the aspect of racing. We can go all day on AI, but I'm offering this to improve the racing aspect. Formula cars in a GT game have no place for most people. However, one of the best ways to test racing skills is by racing these kinds of cars. All I'm saying is that if PD's making the effort to have F1 cars in the game, why not bring in some of the lower-tier series? Not every last one, just a few. The lowest they can go would be Formula Ford. I personally love Formula 3, but also the Skip Barber formula cars. This would be the range of progression if all the cars I imagine having in GT5 were in:

Formula Ford -> Skip Barber -> Formula 3 -> Indy and Champ Cars -> Formula 1

I liked racing Formula 1000 in ToCA Race Driver 3. Some of those junior series can have really fun-to-drive cars. F1000 is up there with Global GT Lights and Palmer Jaguar JP1 as some of my favorite series. Much like how the Ferrari F2007 is in GT5, ToCA RD 3 had the BMW Williams Challenge where you raced the BMW Williams FJ27. That thing is wicked fast and plenty capable.

As far as classic F1 cars go, I'm sure the six-wheeled Tyrell will be a favorite. I love 1960s F1 cars (like what YSSMAN shown). I've also enjoyed the Mercedes-Benz W196 Streamliner, an absolutely beautiful Grand Prix race car from the mid-late 1950s. The Lotus 25 Climax is also a lovely 1960s F1 car. Anyone else want to speculate on formula cars? And do you think it's possible that some companies in GT5 could see some of their formula race cars from junior series? For example, Formula Malaysia features Suzuki-powered formula cars. They even had their $30K Formula Hayabusa race car. There were the aforementioned Formula Renault and World Series by Renault race cars that I mentioned from "Top Gear." Any chance of this happening to add more racing flavor?

 

[Motominded]

LIES.

Its just as relevant of a sport on this side of the continent between the US, Canada and Mexico... I see absolutely no reason why an example of the COT cannot be included for each of the respective managers. It would be interesting at the very least, and very much appreciated. Furthermore, it would be a lot of fun just to run a COT against say a GT2 car, or whatever.

How is a car with 4 gears and suspension designed for ovals supposed to compete with a GT2 car? The two times year when Nascar goes to road coarses they have to run shorter specially Nascar spec configurations. Nascars don't belong on road coarses.

 

[kikie]

No modern single seaters for me but look at these.

Website:

click clack!

These are moddeled ancient F1 cars from a very promising sim that has been cancelled. PD should also try to model the engine with all its parts to make engine wear and damage possible.

 

[Jim Prower]

On my current personal list, I have...

F1: most current, and some from recent times (Spyker, Jaguar) and the '80s (Lotus).
Formula GT: GT3 and GT4
Indy Racing League, and the '80s Chaparral Indy Car
Last season's Panoz Champ Car
GP from '30s (Auto Union D and Bugatti.)

 

[GTveteran]

I wouldn't mind seeing the old F1 and Indycars on the game but I'm not fussed for the modern F1 cars. I don't think they're essential to the progression of Gran Turismo. But they might make an excellent game on their own.

This subject kind of goes back to the "Are Rally cars and tracks neccessary in Gran Turismo?" quandry. I think Polyphony could do well from making games of the individual series but that would take more time so including each of them in Gran Turismo suits me fine.

But no bikes.

 

[JohnBM01]

If we do get A1GP, it would be very interesting to race for national pride against other nations. In my own opinion, I think that something similar to A1GP (some of you might agree) would be much better and much more exciting online, especially against competition the world over. I think the best course of action is probably to be able to purchase blank race cars for us to paint however we like. I'd push to have customer race cars in so that we can paint up our own race cars rather than just trying to get existing cars only.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

While I'd certainly love to see more formula cars in the games, I think that the only ones that should appear are the ones that are absolutely neccessary. The moment the focus of Gran Turismo shifts from buying everyday cars and modifying them for racing to specialised racing machines is the moment that the series loses what makes it unique and simply becomes another racing game.