COVID-19/Coronavirus Information and Support Thread (see OP for useful links)

  • Thread starter baldgye
  • 13,285 comments
  • 647,371 views
Has anyone been on an airplane recently? I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to go back to Michigan and I'm not exactly keen on getting on an airplane, but driving seems terrible since it's 1,800 through all of Nebraska and Iowa. If I were to get on an airplane, I would of course wear a mask and ski goggles to protect my eyes, but it still seems sketchy.
From what I’ve read and seen on the TV, every other seat is open and they’ve done something to the air system. Can’t remember if they added another filter or what.
I think I would drive, not many people are on the roads like usual and just about everywhere I’ve been people are driving 80. :lol: State troopers don’t want the Rona either.
 
I think I would drive, not many people are on the roads like usual and just about everywhere I’ve been people are driving 80. :lol: State troopers don’t want the Rona either.
It's definitely a good time to be in the auto body repair business, judging by the number of Mustangs and Challengers I've seen sitting on the freeway shoulder with buckled front ends these last few months.
 
It's definitely a good time to be in the auto body repair business, judging by the number of Mustangs and Challengers I've seen sitting on the freeway shoulder with buckled front ends these last few months.
I read back in May/June crashes were down 50%. I’m in the insurance side of the auto world. Yes the wrecks that I have drove up on are pretty rough due to people driving faster.
 
I read back in May/June crashes were down 50%. I’m in the insurance side of the auto world. Yes the wrecks that I have drove up on are pretty rough due to people driving faster.
The national average is definitely way down due to the overall reduced amount of traffiic. Central Ohio is probably a bit of an outlier though, since there are lots of folks around here with off-lease muscle cars and little common sense. :P Even then, it's still been pretty rare for even the usual rush hour crash spots to see anything that would cause a traffic jam.
 
Wow, it's super cheap to fly. Going back to Detroit typically would cost me something like $400-$500 but a round trip is $200 on a nonstop flight. It's $300 to fly into Northern Michigan, which cost me a whopping $625 last time I did that. Rental cars are still comically expensive though. I might just need to get a hazmat suit or something and fly to Michigan if/when I need to. It'll never be that cheap to get there via air travel.

If I end up with a new car this week though, I'll probably drive it because you know road trip. Thankfully, Volvo seats are pretty comfortable so I could just sleep in the car.

I think the biggest issue I might run into is being quarantined. I would hate to get to Michigan and then be stuck there for two weeks. I wonder if I got tested before I left and had the test results with me if I could avoid it? I don't want to skirt the laws, but it's getting increasingly important that I make the trip. I know they're teetering on a lockdown again and while I wouldn't be going to any restaurants or public places, it would still throw a wrench into things.
 
Answer the question then.

Can someone explain to me why we don't wear masks all the time then?

@Famine hit this from one side, which is that we do in environments where it is needed. But there is another side to this, which is that the standard that gets applied here is negligence. Normally, you don't walk past 1000 signs saying masks are required/encouraged and 1000 PSAs spammed to your phone, the internet, TV commercials, radio, and just about every media you can find letting you know that you're endangering others by not practicing social distancing and using masks.

So the act of walking into a grocery store without a mask is significantly different in that environment, the environment where everyone is letting you know that there happens to be a pandemic going on which is causing a lot of harm, and that we know how to stem the spread than the same act would be if there wasn't a pandemic and no one were letting you know these things.

The difference is that you know that you're causing harm and ignoring that information if you refuse now. And acting in that manner is sometimes referred to as criminal and for good reason.

Reducto ad absurdum.

Reductio ad absurdum is a valid way of identifying problems with someone's position. It's a good thing. Not a logical fallacy.

semantics Danoff. That wasn't the gist of the conversation. The conversation went something along the lines of "face masks infringe on ma freedoms!" And the reply being something like "you have the freedom to not wear a face mask into a business, and they have the freedom to kick you out." The latter being quite true, a shop has the right to refuse business. However, as I was pointing out, the former in all of those states is not true. In those listed states, wearing a mask in public spaces or where crowds of a certain size gather is now required by law, thus one no longer has the freedom to not wear a mask into a business.

It is the gist of the conversation. Businesses have restrictions on the manner in which they can operate to accept the public. We can debate those restrictions if someone wants to, but most businesses operating today could be said to have accepted those restrictions voluntarily, at least to an extent. At worst, you could argue that the licenses that a grocery store has to have to operate are an infringement on their rights. But invoking that contract and requiring masks or limits within the store is not necessarily a violation of the rights of the business owner. It'd be the contract itself (as long as that contract is what's being used) that would be the problem, and that was probably agreed to a decade ago in many cases.

So strictly speaking, the act itself of requiring those businesses to require masks is at least not clearly a violation of their rights. Although their rights may be violated in other ways. At no point does the general public really have any right to demand that they can wear certain clothing, or not wear certain clothing, to go into, for example, a grocery store. That's just not a thing. So when the government steps in and says "this clothing is required", it's still not a thing.

If the government were to say that you have to wear a mask in your house, or in someone else's house, on their personal property which is not being operated under a specific use license with the state, that'd be a violation of rights. Otherwise the issue is with the license.


* Also, to really get into the weeds, some of those licenses may not allow the government to require masks. That's probably state or even city dependent.
 
Wow, it's super cheap to fly. Going back to Detroit typically would cost me something like $400-$500 but a round trip is $200 on a nonstop flight. It's $300 to fly into Northern Michigan, which cost me a whopping $625 last time I did that. Rental cars are still comically expensive though. I might just need to get a hazmat suit or something and fly to Michigan if/when I need to. It'll never be that cheap to get there via air travel.

If I end up with a new car this week though, I'll probably drive it because you know road trip. Thankfully, Volvo seats are pretty comfortable so I could just sleep in the car.

I think the biggest issue I might run into is being quarantined. I would hate to get to Michigan and then be stuck there for two weeks. I wonder if I got tested before I left and had the test results with me if I could avoid it? I don't want to skirt the laws, but it's getting increasingly important that I make the trip. I know they're teetering on a lockdown again and while I wouldn't be going to any restaurants or public places, it would still throw a wrench into things.
I fear the counter-argument you might get from an authority figure is that while you may have tested negative in Utah, they'll want to know what you did or who you encountered between Utah & Michigan. And as much as one would like to take you at your word, I think hundreds of others have ruined that for honest folks like yourself who would say, "I literally drove from Utah to Michigan and only stopped at this place at this time & encountered nobody". :indiff:
 
I fear the counter-argument you might get from an authority figure is that while you may have tested negative in Utah, they'll want to know what you did or who you encountered between Utah & Michigan. And as much as one would like to take you at your word, I think hundreds of others have ruined that for honest folks like yourself who would say, "I literally drove from Utah to Michigan and only stopped at this place at this time & encountered nobody". :indiff:
I keep seeing airlines offer cheap flights and my first thought is "wow, that's a steal." My second and third thoughts are: "Wait, why would I want to go on an airplane" and "There is nowhere I really would want to travel to".
 
I haven't stepped on a plane myself in several months, but my business partner has flown twice:

In late April from EWR (Newark) to DEN (Denver) and he said the plane was nearly empty.

And in early May from EWR to ZRH (Zurich) and he was appalled and said literally every seat in the plane was taken, packed like sardines on an 8 hour flight. Everybody wore masks, he took a sleeping pill and woke up when it was time to land.

Flying back to Switzerland was for the death of a close relative where he felt compelled to go. But he felt it was ridiculous and ironic that they had all of these social distancing marks on the ground in front of the gate and strict warning announcements not to go and "line up" to board. But then you get on the plane and everybody is shoulder to shoulder. What's the point.

And I've spoken to several other people who have flown in the last few months. It seems to be a mixed bag with flights ranging from "3/4 empty" to "People sitting in the overheard bins". (i.e. completely full)

So I think it's really luck of the draw at the point. My understanding is that many airlines have been consolidating flights and routes to maximize passenger loads, so the early talk of an open row between passengers has been mostly talk.

My suggestion would be to drive and buy a box of latex gloves for pumping gas.
 
@Famine hit this from one side, which is that we do in environments where it is needed. But there is another side to this, which is that the standard that gets applied here is negligence. Normally, you don't walk past 1000 signs saying masks are required/encouraged and 1000 PSAs spammed to your phone, the internet, TV commercials, radio, and just about every media you can find letting you know that you're endangering others by not practicing social distancing and using masks.

Thanks for that. There is a huge presupposition in that though. That suppression is better than contagion.

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/sout...me-india-slums-may-have-reached-herd-immunity
 
Thanks for that. There is a huge presupposition in that though. That suppression is better than contagion.

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/sout...me-india-slums-may-have-reached-herd-immunity

That's because a disease that is growing in your body can kill people. You don't get to just walk past the warning signs, ignore the danger you pose to others, and kill people - even for the purpose of achieving herd immunity (if that's possible with COVID).

Wouldn't it just be quicker to get a gun and murder people in high risk groups? "Your honor, I know that I should not be killing healthy people, but I shot these immunocompromized people so that we could achieve herd immunity and save immunocompromised people".

Hopefully you see why what you're advocating is immoral.
 
New Jersey is restricting gatherings indoors again back down to 25% or a maximum of 25 people. This is mostly due to the numerous house parties occurring having upwards of 100s of people.
 
@Famine hit this from one side, which is that we do in environments where it is needed. But there is another side to this, which is that the standard that gets applied here is negligence. Normally, you don't walk past 1000 signs saying masks are required/encouraged and 1000 PSAs spammed to your phone, the internet, TV commercials, radio, and just about every media you can find letting you know that you're endangering others by not practicing social distancing and using masks.

So the act of walking into a grocery store without a mask is significantly different in that environment, the environment where everyone is letting you know that there happens to be a pandemic going on which is causing a lot of harm, and that we know how to stem the spread than the same act would be if there wasn't a pandemic and no one were letting you know these things.

The difference is that you know that you're causing harm and ignoring that information if you refuse now. And acting in that manner is sometimes referred to as criminal and for good reason.



Reductio ad absurdum is a valid way of identifying problems with someone's position. It's a good thing. Not a logical fallacy.



It is the gist of the conversation. Businesses have restrictions on the manner in which they can operate to accept the public. We can debate those restrictions if someone wants to, but most businesses operating today could be said to have accepted those restrictions voluntarily, at least to an extent. At worst, you could argue that the licenses that a grocery store has to have to operate are an infringement on their rights. But invoking that contract and requiring masks or limits within the store is not necessarily a violation of the rights of the business owner. It'd be the contract itself (as long as that contract is what's being used) that would be the problem, and that was probably agreed to a decade ago in many cases.

So strictly speaking, the act itself of requiring those businesses to require masks is at least not clearly a violation of their rights. Although their rights may be violated in other ways. At no point does the general public really have any right to demand that they can wear certain clothing, or not wear certain clothing, to go into, for example, a grocery store. That's just not a thing. So when the government steps in and says "this clothing is required", it's still not a thing.

If the government were to say that you have to wear a mask in your house, or in someone else's house, on their personal property which is not being operated under a specific use license with the state, that'd be a violation of rights. Otherwise the issue is with the license.


* Also, to really get into the weeds, some of those licenses may not allow the government to require masks. That's probably state or even city dependent.
Except I am not talking about licensing or laws that affect the business. Michigan for example, you, yourself can get fined if you are public places without a mask. Is there repercussions to a store or whatever business if you are caught? Don't know, but thats not what I am talking about at all. I mean, sure I can drive drunk on my own property too, doesn't mean I have the freedom to drive around town drunk as there are laws restricting that freedom. I have the freedom to not wear a mask on my property. I do not have the freedom to walk around my Meijer without a mask on as there is now a law stating that I can't. Its not directed at the business, it is directed at the person.
 
Except I am not talking about licensing or laws that affect the business. Michigan for example, you, yourself can get fined if you are public places without a mask. Is there repercussions to a store or whatever business if you are caught? Don't know, but thats not what I am talking about at all. I mean, sure I can drive drunk on my own property too, doesn't mean I have the freedom to drive around town drunk as there are laws restricting that freedom. I have the freedom to not wear a mask on my property. I do not have the freedom to walk around my Meijer without a mask on as there is now a law stating that I can't. Its not directed at the business, it is directed at the person.

You don't have the freedom to walk naked on public property either. That's not an infringement of your rights. It's not your property.
 
You don't have the freedom to walk naked on public property either. That's not an infringement of your rights. It's not your property.
are you suggesting rights and freedoms then don't exist on public property?

Edit. And how does that pertain to this comment
Thats not strictly true. The US Federal gov may not have instituted a mask law, but a lot of states have. I personally am wearing a mask when out in public, but at this point I also dont have the "freedom" to make the shop keep kick me out or not. It's now a state punishable offense.
Made about this comment?
No-one is forcing you to wear a mask - you are within your rights to refuse.
 
Last edited:
are you suggesting rights and freedoms then don't exist on public property?

Depends on what "rights" you're talking about. For some of your rights, it doesn't matter whose property you're on, you're still guaranteed those rights. For example, in general, freedom of speech - because freedom of speech is literally about government action, not private action. Similarly, it doesn't matter whose property you're standing on, you still have a right not to have violent force used against you.

But when you set foot on someone else's property, you agree to the property owner's terms or you can be asked to leave (and not leaving is a violation of their property rights). You agree to whatever dress code they require, even if that property is owned by the federal government. When it comes to freedom of speech, since that's a freedom against government action, you might agree not to say or do certain things to gain access to private property - for public property, since the government is the owner, restricting speech gets tricky (although not impossible, for example in a court room).

The federal (or state) government can require you to wear clothing on government property, or on the sidewalk.
 
Last edited:
Depends on what "rights" you're talking about. For some of your rights, it doesn't matter whose property you're on, you're still guaranteed those rights. For example, in general, freedom of speech - because freedom of speech is literally about government action, not private action. Similarly, it doesn't matter whose property you're standing on, you still have a right not to have violent force used against you.

But when you set foot on someone else's property, you agree to the property owner's terms or you can be asked to leave (and not leaving is a violation of their property rights). You agree to whatever dress code they require, even if that property is owned by the federal government. When it comes to freedom of speech, since that's a freedom against government action, you might agree not to say or do certain things to gain access to private property - for public property, since the government is the owner, restricting speech gets tricky (although not impossible, for example in a court room).

The federal (or state) government can require you to wear clothing on government property, or on the sidewalk.
Any freedom not allowed is an infringement on my rights. Some of them I agree to let go, some of them I don't have a choice. Public or private, consent or not, a freedom denied is a freedom infringed.
But, as i was pointing out to Touring Mars, the government is making people wear masks. In the places listed, myself and the shop owner no longer have the freedom to decide it amongst ourselves.
 
Any freedom not allowed is an infringement on my rights.

No. This misunderstands what rights are. Denying you the freedom to shoot people is not denying your rights. You do not have a right to kill innocent people.

But, as i was pointing out to Touring Mars, the government is making people wear masks. In the places listed, myself and the shop owner no longer have the freedom to decide it amongst ourselves.

This is true for lots of regulations on shop owners and customers. It's not unique to masks. For example, operating a grocery store requires a grocer's license as well as health inspections, and probably a liquor license. If you're selling prepared food there (which you probably are), I think there are additional licenses involved, probably a restaurant license. In Colorado, those two licenses are combined into a retail food license, which requires submitting detailed plans for the entire store, including where food is going to be located within the store, and requires a review of everything down to whether you have vacuum breakers on your plumbing (I'd think this would be covered in construction code, but apparently it's separate for retail food licensing) and additionally requires you to let them know for example whether you're offering hot food, cold food, washing produce, etc. etc. I'm looking at some of the paperwork right now, and it just goes on and on and on... here's a flowchart you have to follow for employee illness, here's how long they have to be symptom free before returning to work, are you operating a molluscan shellfish life support system display tank...

The plans for operation of the molluscan shellfish life support system display tank are not decided upon between you and the shop keeper. They're decided upon by the local inspection and permitting group. And that might be an infringement of your rights depending on what alternatives there are for operating a molluscan shellfish life support system display tank. But that's quite a separate discussion.

Bottom line, your shop keeper agreed to this when they got their operating license. It's not any new infringement of their rights to require masks, they have many many many such requirements. If you want to argue that they shouldn't be required, we need to talk about what freedom they have to operate without a license, and that goes all the way back to the first requirements for operation of a molluscan shellfish life support system display tank, and all of the rest of it, including clothing.
 
Coronavirus: Iran cover-up of deaths revealed by data leak

While I'm not shocked at all a country is covering up its mortality data, what is surprising is that the first death was allegedly on January 22nd. That pre-dates the first official known death outside of China by 11 days (Feb 2nd in the Philippines).
So we know of one country definitely doing it (Iran), one country likely to have done it (China), and at least one country trying and failing to do it (United States).
 
That's because a disease that is growing in your body can kill people. You don't get to just walk past the warning signs, ignore the danger you pose to others, and kill people - even for the purpose of achieving herd immunity (if that's possible with COVID).

Wouldn't it just be quicker to get a gun and murder people in high risk groups? "Your honor, I know that I should not be killing healthy people, but I shot these immunocompromized people so that we could achieve herd immunity and save immunocompromised people".

Hopefully you see why what you're advocating is immoral.

No, the words you put i my mouth are absurd, if you can't discuss this without changing my words then you don't have much of an argument. And what about the thousands of families who's bread-winners don't get any bread. Anyone for a depression? So I'm a heartless, but you're not because your victims are indirect?
 


"That's the only way we're really going to have a real robust economic recovery. Otherwise, we're going to have flare-ups, lockdowns and a very halting recovery with many more job losses and many more bankruptcies for an extended period of time unfortunately,

...
that's going to take a lot of time to recover from to rebuild those businesses and then to bring workers back in and re-engage them in the workforce. That's going to be a much slower recovery for all of us,"
 
No. This misunderstands what rights are. Denying you the freedom to shoot people is not denying your rights. You do not have a right to kill innocent people.
I certainly don't misunderstand that, nor made that claim. No need to resort to hyperbole on points we mostly agree on.


This is true for lots of regulations on shop owners and customers. It's not unique to masks. For example, operating a grocery store requires a grocer's license as well as health inspections, and probably a liquor license. If you're selling prepared food there (which you probably are), I think there are additional licenses involved, probably a restaurant license. In Colorado, those two licenses are combined into a retail food license, which requires submitting detailed plans for the entire store, including where food is going to be located within the store, and requires a review of everything down to whether you have vacuum breakers on your plumbing (I'd think this would be covered in construction code, but apparently it's separate for retail food licensing) and additionally requires you to let them know for example whether you're offering hot food, cold food, washing produce, etc. etc. I'm looking at some of the paperwork right now, and it just goes on and on and on... here's a flowchart you have to follow for employee illness, here's how long they have to be symptom free before returning to work, are you operating a molluscan shellfish life support system display tank...

The plans for operation of the molluscan shellfish life support system display tank are not decided upon between you and the shop keeper. They're decided upon by the local inspection and permitting group. And that might be an infringement of your rights depending on what alternatives there are for operating a molluscan shellfish life support system display tank. But that's quite a separate discussion.

Bottom line, your shop keeper agreed to this when they got their operating license. It's not any new infringement of their rights to require masks, they have many many many such requirements. If you want to argue that they shouldn't be required, we need to talk about what freedom they have to operate without a license, and that goes all the way back to the first requirements for operation of a molluscan shellfish life support system display tank, and all of the rest of it, including clothing.
Except this is a new law, and thus a new infringement and as an executive order (at least in MI) no one got a vote on it, and it wasn't a law or even a consideration when any business got their license to operate. Its as shiny and new as can be.
It is what it is. Just like the lockdowns. The gov has a responsibility to keep the general public safe, even if a large portion of the public think Covid is a hoax. In fact, the mask law I would contribute mostly to those people.
One thing that does bug me about the law is that the state gov is during very little in way of enforcement or to help enforce. A fair number of police forces have said they have no intentions of enforcing the law. So what happens when a shop tries to kick out someone being unruly about wearing a mask and they refuse, and now the police have also refused to show up to enforce the law? Does a shop drop it and risk being shut down or escalate the issue until there's another shooting? Thankfully I believe we have only had the one incident in Flint, but I can only imagine there have been some huge headaches for shop owners and managers dealing with ****** people.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Is this a deepfake? If it's fake then the technology is terrifying. If it's real then the future is terrifying.

Man uses charts to explain why America is below even The World in the figures, has charts to prove it:



(13:00 onwards for the charts. Well worth seeing).
 
Another existing drug in a trial phase that's starting to show some promise in small scale studies.

Rapid Recovery from COVID-19 Respiratory Failure after treatment with Vasoactive Intestinal Peptide

The drug being used, Aviptadil, is used to treat erectile dysfunction but this study claims that it's helping with severe cases of COVID-19. There's some skepticism though since the study was funded by the manufacturer of the drug who holds the patent for it. Still, if it shows some signs of being useful, it probably worth exploring a bit more. Based on what I've been able to read thus far, the side effects are fairly minor too which, in theory, would make it safer to trial then something like hydroxychloroquine.

Looks like the FDA has approved the drug for emergency use too.
 
Another existing drug in a trial phase that's starting to show some promise in small scale studies.

Rapid Recovery from COVID-19 Respiratory Failure after treatment with Vasoactive Intestinal Peptide

The drug being used, Aviptadil, is used to treat erectile dysfunction but this study claims that it's helping with severe cases of COVID-19. There's some skepticism though since the study was funded by the manufacturer of the drug who holds the patent for it. Still, if it shows some signs of being useful, it probably worth exploring a bit more. Based on what I've been able to read thus far, the side effects are fairly minor too which, in theory, would make it safer to trial then something like hydroxychloroquine.

Looks like the FDA has approved the drug for emergency use too.
“Fairly minor side effects” :lol:
Hey doc, check out my tepee.
 
Back