COVID-19/Coronavirus Information and Support Thread (see OP for useful links)

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WTF happened? I couldn't have said that better @Famine. Though I'd be pleasantly surprised if he agreed with me on anything more. I was asked earlier what my intentions were in this discussion.
I wouldn't necessarily go that far, because...
The Covid-19 situation is overblown.
It isn't.

COVID-19 is deadly, and where it isn't it can be life-changing. There will be people who die 5-10 years from now because of the multiple organ damage caused by COVID-19, and there are people right now who are clear of COVID-19 but are suffering from something extremely similar to Guillain–Barre - a previously highly rare post-viral syndrome. And these aren't elderly or vulnerable people, but otherwise healthy early middle-aged people.

While something like 90% of cases are mild to undetectable outside of testing*, the proportion of complications among those cases that are not mild is very high (~20%), and the death rate is very high (~4%)for a regular respiratory tract infection. The hospitalisation rate is of concern, because 20% of 250,000 people shipping up as inpatients at once will cause deaths from lack of treatment not only for them but for normal people who can't get treatment for other serious but ordinarily manageable conditions - and already half of people who end up in ICU with COVID-19 don't come out of it

Sure, if we get enough people tested we'll likely see that the odds of death are under 1% (if not 0.5%), and the odds of serious, life-changing consequences are under 5% (if not 2%) - it's no ebola, but it is not something you want to catch...

... but it's something it's relatively easy to avoid catching and even easier to avoid spreading. It's droplet spread, so masks (even home-made fabric ones) which prevent the droplets leaving your nose and mouth help reduce how much you can spread it if you have it, and which limit the major entry points from droplets help reduce how much you can catch it if you don't (eyes will be the remaining major entry point); improper use of masks, such as touching the exposed surfaces especially when taking them off and putting them on, will increase exposure but not outweigh the amount the masks themselves reduce it; it'll be roughly the same as any other item of clothing, especially outer layers. Washing of hands and common surfaces help reduce how much someone can transfer mouth-to-hand onto surfaces to spread it, and hand-to-mouth from surfaces to catch it. Keeping a few feet apart reduces the chance of ordinary respiratory droplets reaching other people - though coughs and sneezes can indeed still spread diseases.

It's basically not that hard to limit exposure. Of course it will be necessary for many people to drive, put fuel in their car, go to work, go to supermarkets, and so on, and that naturally increases exposure, but wearing a mask, washing your hands, and staying away from people limits how exposed you are - as well as limits how much you expose other people. Treating any surface you're not aware of as clean (including your clothing and mask) as if it is infected is a wise course.


But people don't want to do that. Some particularly stupid people treat wearing a mask as an assault on their rights (which is fun, because it fools the hell out of the facial recognition in CCTV) and don't see that protecting themselves from exposure also protects others from exposure to them from a virus they have a 90% chance of not knowing they even have...


If you've read my post on accurate COVID-19 reporting and come away with the conclusion that it is over-reported (and overblown), you're wrong. A "COVID-19 death" is not necessarily always a death from COVID-19, but it's someone who has at the least had SARS-CoV-2 - and that's very important to know. There is probably a vanishingly small number of the 46,000 or so people in the UK who are COVID-19 deaths who've been murdered, or committed suicide, or died in a car crash, or fallen out of a fifth-floor window and not actually died from COVID-19 while positive for the virus, or from the damage it has caused, and it's not likely to change the numbers enough to require a re-rounding.

The statistics are dumbed down a bit, and I think there's a few reasons for that. I'd record them as COVID with the primary cause of death, and COVID as a secondary cause of death except where trauma is the primary cause. Of course that would allow for some major spin on the death numbers, but it would at least be accurate. And we do need more testing.



*As with 'flu. At least half of all 'flu cases are mild enough to never even register, and at least 90% will be nothing more than someone taking a day off work - if we're lucky that they're bright enough to stay at home and not battle through it; our 'flu numbers are no more reliable.
 
Then we have a number of contentious issues. Overblown or not? Blackburn, Bradford and Manchester have been selected as Covid horror areas and put under lockdown. This is apparently due to a 66% increase in cases over a fortnight (ONS data says the Times). Can anyone show me that this increase is more than 5 cases?

It's impossible to determine the all the true numbers regarding this issue. Number of cases in the UK who knows, how many people a)Have it and haven't been tested? How many tests are false positives? The only true measure is how many people have died as a result of Covid, this figure is open to interpretatation as you stated but I think it's the only figure that can be used to determine what is happening. If the death rates are going down then why? Is the virus becoming less virulent, have the weak already been picked off?

Masks are an assault on our rights.In South Africa, face coverings became mandatory on May 1. At that point, there were 5,951 infections in that country. As of now, there have been 503,000. How's that working?

In the UK, despite hardly anyone wearing a mask, we’ve seen the death rate plunge from (apparently) many thousands of deaths a week in March to single figures now. In France face coverings are required in shops, in next-door Switzerland they are not – Switzerland has had fewer deaths per million. Spain’s endorsement of masks has not stopped them having one of the highest death rates in Europe.


Whilst I disagree with you on many things, I do consider that you are of above average intelligence and do read what you right. No-one wants to get ill with any disease, and yes I wouldn't want to suffer a bad reaction to the virus. I would be happy to be infected and quarantined for a couple of weeks and know that I couldn't infect anyone else.

I agree that the number of suicides etc will be a small number, however the number of old people deaths is not a small number, in fact it's pretty huge. And a good proportion of them came from Care Homes, how many of these people would have died of their existing complications some time this year anyway?
 
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Masks are an assault on our rights.
No-one is forcing you to wear a mask - you are within your rights to refuse. But everyone has rights, and your right to refuse a mask does not trump the right of others to protect themselves from danger, and that means that you can rightly expect to be refused entry or service in a shop or on public transport etc. because of your choice to not wear a mask.

Too often when people talk about rights they frame it as if rights entitle them to do whatever they want - but it would be better to think about it more from the point of view that if/when your actions affect others, then that is a rights issue too.

x3ra
In South Africa, face coverings became mandatory on May 1. At that point, there were 5,951 infections in that country. As of now, there have been 503,000. How's that working?
Masks are only one part of a number of mitigations that need to be carried out in tandem, and each one is only as effective as how well people use them.

x3ra
In the UK, despite hardly anyone wearing a mask, we’ve seen the death rate plunge from (apparently) many thousands of deaths a week in March to single figures now.
Yes, that's because the entire country has been in lockdown.

We can't have it both ways - we either keep locking society down OR we adopt measures (like mask wearing) that allow us to avoid that.

I reckon it is a no-brainer that we should be opting for the lesser of two evils (by far)...
 
Spain’s endorsement of masks has not stopped them having one of the highest death rates in Europe.

This is a disingenuous argument.

Spain made masks mandatory in early June.
Amid COVID-19 pandemic, Spanish government reportedly made wearing face masks a compulsion until the pandemic is over. Spain's Health Minister Salvador Illa on June 9 reportedly said that the measure would in remain in force after the state of emergency ends on June 21 and it will remain in place until Spain permanently defeats Coronavirus, which is when a vaccine or an effective treatment is available for this.
https://thenewsspan.in/spain-makes-face-masks-mandatory-until-covid-19-pandemic-is-over/

The bulk of Spain's massive death toll happened in March-May. Since June 1st, Spain's death toll I believe is 1,120.
35ec511927318456410746351a81773223d157ec.png
 
Masks are an assault on our rights.
No, they aren't.

Since 90% (or more) of COVID-19 cases are asymptomatic, you can be a carrier - and infectious - without knowing it. If you do not take any measures to prevent other people from becoming infected with an illness that it there is around a 40-50% likelihood that you have either had or currently have, you are harming their rights.

Around 5% of the infected (that we know of) require advanced hospital care for the illness, with half of those suffering life-changing injuries and half of those dying from it. People can die, and have died, from COVID-19 due to someone else's negligence in limiting its spread.

A mask limits how much you harm other people's rights. Not wearing one does not.
 
Can someone explain to me why we don't wear masks all the time then? After all there are lot of viruses circulating all the time. If it saves just one life then surely it's worth it? Or would that be an imposition?

A new study by researchers at University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Brookhaven National Laboratory and published on the preprint server medRxiv* in July 2020 discusses the effect of a factor called persistent contact heterogeneity on the final epidemic size of COVID-19. The researchers say that using estimates based on this measure reduces the herd immunity threshold (HIT) and suggests that the worst-affected areas, such as New York City (NYC), are almost at this threshold, meaning that they will not be sources of spread to other areas if a second wave of the current pandemic occurs.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...ched-coronavirus-herd-immunity-threshold.aspx

As to the benefits of lock-down, and it's scientific proof, my tiger repellent is working wonderfully.
 
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Answer the question then.

Can someone explain to me why we don't wear masks all the time then?

EDIT : Crikey 34 minutes and no reply.
Probably because based on your stellar track record in this thread, the instant someone answers your question, you give no reply (ironic) & re-harp about masks a couple pages later, so why waste the effort digging up information.

Edit*
Oh and no surprise to anyone, your source you shared is full of dog **** as usual.
From the same author:
QAnon information are shared across various platforms – Twitter, Facebook, Youtube, Reddit, and Instagram. Users who share these information are approximately reaching hundreds of thousands which also include not only ordinary internet users but also artists, intellectuals, professionals, celebrities, and even some politicians. This is one of the main reasons why the movement has become the target for censorship and online repression by the biggest platforms such as Twitter and Facebook, especially during these times of coronavirus crisis. From information about facemask to vaccines to COVID related technologies that are said to be coming along with the new consciousness of the Artificial Intelligence (AI), QAnon’s articles and video information are often being blocked, being constantly fact-checked or just simply being taken down. Because of this, many Facebook users wonder and asked this question: “so if these are just conspiracy theories, why censor and ban QAnon?”
It's censored and removed b/c people like you specifically refuse actual research and documentation.

As for your stupid ass article? Debunked.
Social media users have been sharing a quote attributed to the inventor of the Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) test, currently being used to detect COVID-19, which says “PCR tests cannot detect free infectious viruses at all”. This quote has been falsely attributed to the inventor, Kary Mullis, and has been taken out of context to falsify its original meaning.

However, the quote is actually from an article written by John Lauritsen in December 1996 about HIV and AIDS, not COVID-19 (here).
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...cant-be-used-in-virus-detection-idUSKBN24420X
 
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A new study by researchers at University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Brookhaven National Laboratory and published on the preprint server medRxiv* in July 2020 discusses the effect of a factor called persistent contact heterogeneity on the final epidemic size of COVID-19. The researchers say that using estimates based on this measure reduces the herd immunity threshold (HIT) and suggests that the worst-affected areas, such as New York City (NYC), are almost at this threshold, meaning that they will not be sources of spread to other areas if a second wave of the current pandemic occurs.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...ched-coronavirus-herd-immunity-threshold.aspx
I've been keeping a close eye on the figures coming out of the US and it is looking very like NY may well have reached some form of threshold - and other states are now following suit.

Some estimates have put the herd immunity threshold at as low as 20%, with earlier estimates based on the R0 number (which itself is a pretty vague range of numbers) putting the HIT at more like 70%.

A key figure is therefore the number of detected cases per 1M people, and right now several US states appear to have recently peaked at pretty close to where NY was a few months ago.

Tellingly, and surprisingly, NY continues to remain flat in terms of new cases... while this could be due to lockdown and mitigation measures, it is also possible that it is also the result of the HIT being reached in that state (or at least in its most populous centres like NYC).

Several US states (NY, Arizona, Florida and Louisiana) are seeing infection rates hitting around 2-2.5% (20-25,000 cases per 1M), but it is well known that this is likely to be a huge underestimate - it is not unrealistic to suggest that actual numbers may be at least 10 times higher, in which case these states are looking at infection rates of 20-25% already... couple that with a higher innate immunity rate than previously thought and a lower R0 number for the virus itself, and it could be that herd immunity is the main reason why there is no second peak in NY state thus far, and it could mean that other states are already over the worst of it... for now at least.

What is not known yet, though, is how long this state may last - or whether or not those who have been infected once might even be more susceptible to severe illness if/when they get infected by a new mutant or strain of the virus.

But for now, I'm hoping that the HIT threshold is already being reached in these states.
 
Can someone explain to me why we don't wear masks all the time then?
We do.

It's entirely normal in some countries and cultures to wear masks in public. Outside of those, the wearing of masks is also standard in all infection control environments. This includes, but is not limited to, dentists, doctors, surgeons, laboratory workers (usually biomedical, but also in electronics assembly, particularly consumer electronics and the space industry), and food preparation - almost any clean-room environment will require the wearing of masks, among other precautions. It's also required for visiting the immunocompromised. Of course this is for the protection of others from what you might have, but there are also masks for protecting you from what you're working with - such as loft insulation, road tar and roof felting, and about a billion other things.

The concept has come to the fore with COVID-19 because it's around twice as easy to catch as common droplet-spread viruses and not only ten times as deadly as them but several orders of magnitude more likely to leave you disabled for life... and there is not only no population immunity to it, but no way to acquire immunity (vaccination). And you won't know you have it until at least five days after you've already given it to other people.


It is a highly unusual situation, which a mask helps to dramatically limit (and an appropriate mask, worn and handled appropriately, limits further).
 
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Can someone explain to me why we don't wear masks all the time then?

You don't need someone else to explain it, you can answer that question for yourself. You're free to wear a suitable mask pretty much as much as you want to under non-pandemic situations, but I suspect you don't, so why is that? That'll be the answer you're looking for.
 
No-one is forcing you to wear a mask - you are within your rights to refuse.
Thats not strictly true. The US Federal gov may not have instituted a mask law, but a lot of states have. I personally am wearing a mask when out in public, but at this point I also dont have the "freedom" to make the shop keep kick me out or not. It's now a state punishable offense.
 
Thats not strictly true. The US Federal gov may not have instituted a mask law, but a lot of states have. I personally am wearing a mask when out in public, but at this point I also dont have the "freedom" to make the shop keep kick me out or not. It's now a state punishable offense.

Colorado is indicated on that list, but Colorado only requires a mask in public spaces indoors. That's not the same as requiring you to wear a mask on all private property, or your own private property.
 
Has anyone been on an airplane recently? I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to go back to Michigan and I'm not exactly keen on getting on an airplane, but driving seems terrible since it's 1,800 through all of Nebraska and Iowa. If I were to get on an airplane, I would of course wear a mask and ski goggles to protect my eyes, but it still seems sketchy.
 
I think you'd probably be okay. @Danoff (I believe) did share information showing virus transfer inside a plane likely isn't that high & the airflow wouldn't recirculate it around the cabin. In addition, the articles I've seen when they want to quarantine people known infected on a plane, they seem to only grab the rows directly next to the person as well. And of course, the airlines seem to be taking it very seriously. I caught wind of this story the other day of a plane turning around because of 2 people refusing to wear masks.
https://www.travelpulse.com/news/ai...multiple-passengers-refuse-to-wear-masks.html
 
I hope this results in good publicity for the airline. They're doing the right thing.
Delta seems to be handling 2020 with the right approach.
Delta CEO: "Airline's Pandemic Strategy Is 'Putting People Over Profits'"
https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...demic-strategy-is-putting-people-over-profits

Back in Jan., Delta split $1.6 billion resulting in a 2-months pay bonus for their employees. It's the 6th year in a row they've done this.
https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending...s-employees-bonus/3TMSV6KKHVALPPIBZQSB5Z3XFY/
 
Colorado is indicated on that list, but Colorado only requires a mask in public spaces indoors. That's not the same as requiring you to wear a mask on all private property, or your own private property.
semantics Danoff. That wasn't the gist of the conversation. The conversation went something along the lines of "face masks infringe on ma freedoms!" And the reply being something like "you have the freedom to not wear a face mask into a business, and they have the freedom to kick you out." The latter being quite true, a shop has the right to refuse business. However, as I was pointing out, the former in all of those states is not true. In those listed states, wearing a mask in public spaces or where crowds of a certain size gather is now required by law, thus one no longer has the freedom to not wear a mask into a business.

Just to be clear here, I am not saying it's right or wrong. I think its what people should expect though. A highly infectious disease is floating around and people of a certain ilk are being snowflake bitches about it. If those people would exercise good sense rather than the typical contrarian bull****ery, well, we likely would have lower covid stats (without needing to hide the data) and likely not have mask laws forced on us. So bravo you "right wingers". Keep thinking its some masterminded liberal plot, and keep having stupid laws placed on us to protect us from your stubborn stupidity.
 
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