Creation vs. Evolution

[Pako]

It's not a legitimate justification - but it's better than what I'm used to getting from creationists. The bottom line is that you feel something. You THINK that you feel god, but you can't know for sure. You THINK that you feel the Christian God and that this feeling indicates that you should believe in the Christian holy book, but you can't know that for sure either. Basically all you have is a feeling. It could be a lot of things - it could mean that you're crazy (though I don't think that's it). It could mean that you ate some bad shelfish, or that you have an active imagination. It could be something that the rest of us feel every day and don't see as being God.

That's not a legitimate justification to believe in Christianity - but at least it isn't completely blind faith.

Feels pretty damn real to me. If reality is how we perceive it, then my God is a reality, for example.

I have given several posts prior in this thread why it is more than what you have minimized it as being. How can you possibly be bold enough to interpret my personal relationship with God as a stomach ache from too much sea food?

Anyways, please re-read posts 128 thru 4229 and call me in the morning....

 

[UnoMOTO]

Why believe if you have no basis for justifying that belief? It's about like believing in the flying spaghetti monster. Sure it might be true that the FSM is the one true monster, but you have no justification for that belief - so there is no reason to take the leap of faith.

I am soooo glad we have come to a point that you just can't understand what faith is or what it means to someone. We were in your shoes when you told us the only thing you believe is that you exist. We couldn't understand that and now you can't wrap your hands around our faith.

edit: I will give you a reason. The possibilty of living eternally. Thats a good start for me!

 

[ledhed]

Faith is based on belief . Something need not be true to be believed nor need something be proven for someone to have faith.

Science is not faith based .

Faith and science do not mix. They are and should be kept seperate . There are many faiths but only one truth .

" faith " gives individuals the ability to " choose " a truth.
Science attempts to validate a truth .

This is the lesson that " creationist " have never learned .

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I think the hypocrisy of which you spoke is non-existent.

Not entirely.

I think you're trying very hard to convince all of us that we believe in science as you believe in God.

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that led you to assume that. It is clear from your posts and my perspective that you don't.
It does explain why you run from every readily comprehendible point I make.
I am trying very hard to understand your "belief system" and how you form your beliefs as compared to the way I understand and do it.
It may come across at times as though I'm doing otherwise, but I have to challenge to test the arguments, and in the process I submit mine to the same.

But it isn't so. That's why you're unable to quote me to prove it.

 

[Famine]

I am soooo glad we have come to a point that you just can't understand what faith is or what it means to someone. We were in your shoes when you told us the only thing you believe is that you exist. We couldn't understand that and now you can't wrap your hands around our faith.

You're quite right - but it's not because you don't understand it. If that was the case I'd try and explain it, at increasing levels of inaccuracy, until I found a level at which you did understand it. The issue is that you can't understand it - as SCJ is now demonstrating - any more than I can understand the concept of God speaking directly to me. It's no indictment of your intelligence, just that you are set up to require something to believe in and I am not.

edit: I will give you a reason. The possibilty of living eternally. Thats a good start for me!

Oooh. Bribery. Belief based on unfounded promises - though I'll happily admit to it being a possibility.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I stated this a few pages back, but I think it bears repeating.
This is what God says faith is:

"The substance of something hoped for, the evidence of which is not seen"

If you will notice, God says there is evidence in faith but you can't see it.

 

[Pako]

Oooh. Bribery. Belief based on unfounded promises - though I'll happily admit to it being a possibility.

Bribery, reward, result. Depends how you look at it I guess. Not sure how it can be bribery because if this God does not exist, what benefits to this non-existent god would there be?

To be bribery, this god would have to be getting something it wants at your expense. How is this bribery?

 

[Pako]

I stated this a few pages back, but I think it bears repeating.
This is what God says faith is:

"The substance of something hoped for, the evidence of which is not seen"

If you will notice, God says there is evidence in faith but you can't see it.

👍

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Oooh. Bribery. Belief based on unfounded promises - though I'll happily admit to it being a possibility.

It is a little more critical than that.
You are going to live forever, at least your soul. The question is where?

 

[wfooshee]

"The substance of something hoped for, the evidence of which is not seen"

That does not state that there is unseen evidence for hope, it states a hope without evidence. There's a difference.

Translating to colloquial American English:

"Something you really really really really want, but no one in the Universe can show you."


Kind of like a royal flush, a B-12 for a 4-corners Bingo, a winning lottery ticket, 3 cherries, whatever. Everybody really really wants it, they just KNOW it's coming their way sooner or later, all they have to do is keep at it and (pardon me) believe.

 

[Danoff]

Hoping for something is not a reason to believe it. I might hope to win the lottery tomorrow, but that doesn't justify a belief that I will.

I touched on this in the "religion is contrived" thread, but religion does offer incentives to believers. It is a system of bribery. Believe and you will be rewarded. Disbelieve and you will be punished.

It reeks of a man-made system. It dangles the carrot of eternal life, reunion with loved ones, ultimate justice for all, and all you have to do is go to church on sunday and put a few bucks in the hat (oh, and bend over for the man in the big hat).

 

[SuperCobraJet]

That does not state that there is unseen evidence for hope, it states a hope without evidence. There's a difference.

Translating to colloquial American English:

"Something you really really really really want, but no one in the Universe can show you."


Kind of like a royal flush, a B-12 for a 4-corners Bingo, a winning lottery ticket, 3 cherries, whatever. Everybody really really wants it, they just KNOW it's coming their way sooner or later, all they have to do is keep at it and (pardon me) believe.

Your missing it, read the last line.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Hoping for something is not a reason to believe it. I might hope to win the lottery tomorrow, but that doesn't justify a belief that I will.

I touched on this in the "religion is contrived" thread, but religion does offer incentives to believers. It is a system of bribery. Believe and you will be rewarded. Disbelieve and you will be punished.

It reeks of a man-made system. It dangles the carrot of eternal life, reunion with loved ones, ultimate justice for all, and all you have to do is go to church on sunday and put a few bucks in the hat (oh, and bend over for the man in the big hat).

Danoff your a hoss, but you got it wrong.
We are guilty of sin and rebellion.
But no biggie, we get the same choice Adam and Eve did albeit in reverse.
Jesus paid the price so we can choose back into the good graces again.
Voila, your back in the clear. Its beautyful.
That may be an over simplfication, but basically thats it.

 

[ledhed]

I stated this a few pages back, but I think it bears repeating.
This is what God says faith is:

"The substance of something hoped for, the evidence of which is not seen"

If you will notice, God says there is evidence in faith but you can't see it.

Actually some guys translated some text that may or may not have said that God said something.

Just as you translated the above sentence to mean

God says there is evidence in faith but you can't see it.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Actually some guys translated some text that may or may not have said that God said something.

Just as you translated the above sentence to mean

Hebrews 11:1
Read it for yourself.

BTW just for the record I agree with Galileo.

 

[wfooshee]

Your missing it, read the last line.

No, I'm not, I'm disagreeing with the last line; I would even go so far as to say I'm correcting the statement you make in the last line. That's something you read into it (hoping that's what it meant.)

 

[SuperCobraJet]

No, I'm not, I'm disagreeing with the last line; I would even go so far as to say I'm correcting the statement you make in the last line. That's something you read into it (hoping that's what it meant.)

Read it again, thats exactly what it says.
Hebrews 11:1 (Amplified Bible)
Now faith is the assurance(the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things and the conviction of their reality[faith percieving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].

This says it even more forcefully

 

[Danoff]

Danoff your a hoss, but you got it wrong.
We are guilty of sin and rebellion.
But no biggie, we get the same choice Adam and Eve did albeit in reverse.
Jesus paid the price so we can choose back into the good graces again.
Voila, your back in the clear. Its beautyful.
That may be an over simplfication, but basically thats it.

...and that refutes my carrot analogy how??

 

[SuperCobraJet]

...and that refutes my carrot analogy how??

Well, maybe I should have said partially wrong.
Anything with religion involved, I'll have to admit, can and often does reek of man's contrivances.
I believe Christianity has been religionized by many to a great extent.
However in its original pure form, in my estimation it was not a religion.
As I have said before, I believe it is more of and intented to be a relationship.

Then again God did set the whole thing up on believing and that part is a inescapable.
I can only tell you that he has chosen you and that is the way he has structured the plan for you to choose
him.

Oh, one more thing. I felt much the same way you do about attending a church (organized religion as I perceived it), so for a long time after I was saved I did not attend one. Quite a few years later someone told me about the one I actually go to now, so I attended off and on for a while but I still had some skepticism about it along with some other factors so I stopped going. Later, after sometime had passed is when the Lord told me I should go back and I did. I realized this time that I needed to and it was part of the relationship he intented for you to have. (I will note that it is: independant, very contemporary, non denominational, faith, and Holy Spirit oriented).

 

[wfooshee]

Read it again, thats exactly what it says.
Hebrews 11:1 (Amplified Bible)
Now faith is the assurance(the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things and the conviction of their reality[faith percieving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].

This says it even more forcefully

All it says more forcefully is, "believe this, because I said so."

"..not revealed to the senses" may imply to you that something is there to be seen, but which cannot be seen. To me, it means, "No, really. Trust me on this. {wink wink}"

 

[Famine]

Hebrews 11:1
Read it for yourself.

In which Version, and in which language?

 

[ledhed]

In which Version, and in which language?

I still want to know why God just did not write his own book , instead of relying on all these different fellows to interpret what God is saying.

For that matter what right does a man have to interpret Gods words.

And why did he have to use so many publishers ?

And why did he make so many different versions ?

And why do they all say different things ?

And how do you know who's selling the right book ?

Its not like God signed it to authenticate it. Any of the " Books"

Nor did I see any specific religion being " endorsed by God ".

But they ALL claim to be endorsed by God .

God should clear this up ...maybe even collect all the royalties due.

[2.109] Many of the followers of the Book wish that they could turn you back into unbelievers after your faith, out of envy from themselves, (even) after the truth has become manifest to them; but pardon and forgive, so that Allah should bring about His command; surely Allah has power over all things.

Is this guys " Faith " wrong or different ?


How about this bunch ? After all Moses was one of God main dudes right ?

This is a far more difficult question than you might expect. Judaism has no dogma, no formal set of beliefs that one must hold to be a Jew. In Judaism, actions are far more important than beliefs, although there is certainly a place for belief within Judaism.

The closest that anyone has ever come to creating a widely-accepted list of Jewish beliefs is Rambam's thirteen principles of faith. Rambam's thirteen principles of faith, which he thought were the minimum requirements of Jewish belief, are:

G-d exists
G-d is one and unique
G-d is incorporeal
G-d is eternal
Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
The words of the prophets are true
Moses's prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
There will be no other Torah
G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
The Messiah will come
The dead will be resurrected

Abstract: The three religions of the Book trace their origins back to the same Abrahamic experience, but only one, Christianity, developed a metaphysical framework consistent with that of modern science. Both Judaism and Islam during their formative years, and continuously up to modern times, consideredGreek philosophy and science alien wisdom, jeopardizing their sacredscriptures. The different path followed by Christianity is due to the influence ofHellenistic thought during Christianity's early formative period. Both Judaism and Islam were spared the direct mediation of Greek culture and ideas because both Judaism and Islam developed geographically and linguistically isolatedfrom the Greek influences during the reception of their scriptures

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cach...eligions+of+the+book&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=7


So who gets to referee ?


here pick one.


Islam Judaism Buddhism Animism Christianity Hinduism



http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/religion/


Then if you choose "Christian " we have 300 variety's for you to choose from....we do aim to please.

List of Christian denominations (or Denominations self-identified as Christian) ordered by historical and doctrinal relationships. (See also: Christianity; Christian denominations).

Some denominations are large (e.g. Roman Catholic, Lutherans, Anglicans or Baptists) while others are just a few small churches, and in most cases the relative size is not evident in this list. Also, modern movements such as Fundamentalist Christianity, Pietism, Evangelicalism, Pentecostalism and the Holiness movement sometimes cross denominational lines, or in some cases create new denominations out of two or more continuing groups (as is the case for many United and uniting churches, for example). Such subtleties and complexities are not clearly depicted here. Additionally, some groups viewed by non-adherents as denominational actively resist being called a "denomination" and do not have any formal denominational structure, authority, or record-keeping beyond the local congregation; several groups within Restorationism fall into this category.

This is not a complete list, but aims to provide a comprehensible overview of the diversity that exists among denominations of Christianity. Some links may point to non-existent articles. There are approximately 300 branches listed here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations


Islam only gives you 73 choices.

73 Divisions in Islam and One True Jama'at

http://www.real-islam.org/73_8.htm


The Jews seem to offer the least amount of choices.

Many denominations exist within Judaism; the Jewish community is divided into a number of religious denominations as well as "branches" or "movements." Each denomination accepts the certain Jewish principles of faith but differ in their various views on issues such as level of religious observance (adherence to Jewish law), methodology of Halakhic interpretation and understanding of specific Halakhic issues, biblical authorship, textual criticism, the nature of Moshiach and the Messianic age, and Jewish services (especially the languages in which services are conducted). Relationships between Jewish religious movements are varied, but are generally marked with more interdenominational cooperation than in the other Abrahamic religions. Jewish religious denominations are distinct from but often linked to Jewish ethnic divisions and Jewish political movements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_denominations

 

[SuperCobraJet]

In which Version, and in which language?

Take your pick.

I still want to know why God just did not write his own book , instead of relying on all these different fellows to interpret what God is saying.

He did.

 

[Famine]

Take your pick.

I still want to know why God just did not write his own book , instead of relying on all these different fellows to interpret what God is saying.

He did.

Here's the nub though - with all of the different Versions, all of which are based on which individual commissioned them depending on what translation they liked the most, and in all of the different translations changing contexts, which Bible is the correct one when there are differences? And there are differences.

Of course it's all God's fault in the first place for destroying the Tower of Babel.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Here's the nub though - with all of the different Versions, all of which are based on which individual commissioned them depending on what translation they liked the most, and in all of the different translations changing contexts, which Bible is the correct one when there are differences? And there are differences.

For a person that examines things the way you do, I think you may have to go back and look at original hebrew and greek texts to determine validity. There are resources to help you do this. Thats one reason I primarily read the Amplified Bible since it expands upon the translation, although mainly the Greek.
Also, if you have trouble read James 1:5-7
This is pretty much where I started.
BTW it is no insult on your intelligence, just that after all you are attempting to understand the things of God.

Of course it's all God's fault in the first place for destroying the Tower of Babel.

You may have a point there.

 

[Small_Fryz]

.........many different religions.........

We need a religion broker, this way we can find the one that best suits our needs. Some people might not like reincarnation so they will take that off their list. Most probably want eternal life so chuck out all the ones that cant give you that.


Like i said earlier i pretty much belive that the only reason you guys belive in god "christian, bible" etc is because of WHERE you live. If you lived in india or asia, i highly doubt youd belive in the bible, but one of their religions. Then youd be argueing its the truth and all the rest are wrong. At least with science scientist from all over the world can agree on it and this is what makes it so strong. Its open to EVERYONE to test and provide feedback.

 

[UnoMOTO]

03R1 aka Brian would like to submit an offical apology to all who read this thread. I got way out of line yesterday. In my passion for the faith I have choosen, I made a few bad decisions. I began to debate things I don't even concider to be true just to reach someones point of view. In doing so it truly did make me look like a moooron. It also may have damaged the credibility of those who have my similar views. In the future I will do my best to defend my side of the fence and not enter into areas not including my expertise. I do respect the intellect of all in here whether we agree or not. I ask for your forgiveness in my inappropriate forum behavior.

Brian

 

[SuperCobraJet]

03R1 aka Brian would like to submit an offical apology to all who read this thread. I got way out of line yesterday. In my passion for the faith I have choosen, I made a few bad decisions. I began to debate things I don't even concider to be true just to reach someones point of view. In doing so it truly did make me look like a moooron. It also may have damaged the credibility of those who have my similar views. In the future I will do my best to defend my side of the fence and not enter into areas not including my expertise. I do respect the intellect of all in here whether we agree or not. I ask for your forgiveness in my inappropriate forum behavior.

Brian

As has been demonstrated in this thread, we all make mistakes.
Forget about it.
Remember this: If your not making any mistakes, you aren't doing anything.
This also is one of the reasons, there is an "Edit" button on the post page.

 

[UnoMOTO]

Like i said earlier i pretty much belive that the only reason you guys belive in god "christian, bible" etc is because of WHERE you live. If you lived in india or asia, i highly doubt youd belive in the bible, but one of their religions. Then youd be argueing its the truth and all the rest are wrong. At least with science scientist from all over the world can agree on it and this is what makes it so strong. Its open to EVERYONE to test and provide feedback.

Thats an interesting statement here are some facts for you

Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
Buddhism: 376 million
primal-indigenous: 300 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 15 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 7 million
Jainism: 4.2 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 4 million
Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
Tenrikyo: 2 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
Scientology: 500 thousand

Religion has ZERO to do with your location. God gave all these people the ability to choose what they believe. It is a higher probability that your religion is based on your ancestry. It is nice to know that I have 2.1 billion other believers backing me up. By these numbers you also have more then the bible to discredit. It looks like believing in a higher power and having faith of some sort is out numbering strong science.

 

[Famine]

Thats an interesting statement here are some facts for you

Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
Buddhism: 376 million
primal-indigenous: 300 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 15 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 7 million
Jainism: 4.2 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 4 million
Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
Tenrikyo: 2 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
Scientology: 500 thousand

Religion has ZERO to do with your location.

You've given numbers (from Wikipedia... ) but no geographics, so you've not done much of a job discrediting the notion that religion-type and location are linked. Post the map up and you'll notice that they are.

Christianity is big in Europe (major population centre) and anywhere it colonised before the 19th Century (the Americas, West Africa, Australia) thanks in large part to British Colonialism and Dutch, French, Spanish and Portuguese settlers - and the Romans.

Anywhere we didn't reach successfully or had its own ingrained religion that we couldn't shift (the Middle and Far East, East Africa and the Asian subcontinent) finds Christianity as being not quite so big.