Creation vs. Evolution

[UnoMOTO]

You've given numbers (from Wikipedia... ) but no geographics, so you've not done much of a job discrediting the notion that religion-type and location are linked. Post the map up and you'll notice that they are.
[color]

I give you the credit of knowing the obvious but since you love the details here ya go.
Also keep in mind that I would have agreed with you maybe a few hundred years ago when travel was not as accessible. For instance...If I move to india, my kids with still grow up (hopefully) as christians. Only probable but not a given due to free will.



I see from this map that many religions reside in many locations. And even in highly concentrated areas you may still find all religions.

 

[Famine]

I give you the credit of knowing the obvious but since you love the details here ya go.
Also keep in mind that I would have agreed with you maybe a few hundred years ago when travel was not as accessible. For instance...If I move to india, my kids with still grow up (hopefully) as christians. Only probable but not a given due to free will.

View attachment 61177

I see from this map that many religions reside in many locations. And even in highly concentrated areas you may still find all religions.

Yep. There's some Christians in India and Japan, and some Buddhists and Hindus in the USA. But India is mainly Hindu/Islam/Sikh, Japan is mainly Buddhist/Shinto and the USA is mainly Christian denominations.

 

[ledhed]

03R1 aka Brian would like to submit an offical apology to all who read this thread. I got way out of line yesterday. In my passion for the faith I have choosen, I made a few bad decisions. I began to debate things I don't even concider to be true just to reach someones point of view. In doing so it truly did make me look like a moooron. It also may have damaged the credibility of those who have my similar views. In the future I will do my best to defend my side of the fence and not enter into areas not including my expertise. I do respect the intellect of all in here whether we agree or not. I ask for your forgiveness in my inappropriate forum behavior.

Brian

Dude its all good ...its friday wait until I get through a case of Moosehead and start posting...

Ask anyone here..... you have not lived until you have read one of my late friday night post ....

My wife promised to Bring me home a bottle of Stoli....mehehehehee if I can still see ...we will see.... What comes out of my head .


But at any rate you may have ruined your shot at a darwin award by posting that...

 

[Danoff]

It looks like believing in a higher power and having faith of some sort is out numbering strong science.

One of my favorite creationist arguments. As though the number of people behind you is an indication of the validity of your position.

I'd bet if you took a poll in developed countries you'd find that more people agreed with evolution than disagreed.

 

[ledhed]

Ask a farmer anywhere in the world .

 

[UnoMOTO]

One of my favorite creationist arguments. As though the number of people behind you is an indication of the validity of your position.

I was in no way trying to validate creation with those numbers. Creation can't be validated by anything scientific which I will agree with you. I am just spreading information as it is.

I'd bet if you took a poll in developed countries you'd find that more people agreed with evolution than disagreed.

Great question...here is your answer! If you consider the US to be a developed country that is? The future is not so bright for my religion but I will not eliminate that from this unbiased poll.

Polling data from the 2001 ARIS study, described below, indicate that:

81% of American adults identify themselves with a specific religion: 76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian. This is a major slide from 86.2% in 1990. Identification with Christianity has suffered a loss of 9.7 percentage points in 11 years -- about 0.9 percentage points per year. This decline is identical to that observed in Canada between 1981 and 2001. If this trend continues, then by about the year 2042, non-Christians will outnumber the Christians in the U.S. 52% of Americans identified themselves as Protestant.
24.5% are Roman Catholic.

1.3% are Jewish.
0.5% are Muslim, followers of Islam.
The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca -- a Neopagan religion that is sometimes referred to as Witchcraft. Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months. 4,5 Wiccans in Australia have a very similar growth pattern, from fewer than 2,000 in 1996 to 9,000 in 2001. 10 In Canada, Wiccans and other Neopagans showed the greatest percentage growth of any faith group. They totaled 21,080 members in 1991, an increase of 281% when compared with 1990.

14.1% do not follow any organized religion. This is an unusually rapid increase -- almost a doubling -- from only 8% in 1990. There are more Americans who say they are not affiliated with any organized religion than there are Episcopalians, Methodists, and Lutherans taken together. 6
The unaffiliated vary from a low of 3% in North Dakota to 25% in Washington State. "The six states with the highest percentage of people saying they have no religion are all Western states, with the exception of Vermont at 22%." 6

 

[Danoff]

Great question...here is your answer!

I don't see any statistics about evolution in there.

 

[UnoMOTO]

I don't see any statistics about evolution in there.

Do I really have to point out to you that if you check yes under christian for example that creation would likely be a given or at least probable?

 

[ledhed]

Hey I hate to break this to you but I know many people of faith who believe in evolution.

They believe God designed it that way .

Not everyone blindly accepts the Bible and as individuals with free will they do decide often to interpret it using logic and reason along with faith in God .

They are all going the same place only they choose a different path.

I study history and have for years. Religion is a huge part of history . It is often a huge necessity to learn and understand all types of religions to understand how they impact social and economic conditions and development, during any given time period .

The study of religion is becoming a fun hobby for me.


I dont belong to any organized religion so I get to look at things without too much bias.

 

[UnoMOTO]

Hey I hate to break this to you but I know many people of faith who believe in evolution.

How many? I came up with pretty numbers, lets see yours?

 

[Danoff]

Do I really have to point out to you that if you check yes under christian for example that creation would likely be a given or at least probable?

I'm afriad I'm going to have to ask you to validate this claim.

 

[ledhed]

Brian I am talking of PERSONAL friends or people I know or interact with..one BTW is a Methodist minister and a therapist.

I dont think the issue carries enough importance for a poll to have been done.

Although in PA. When they tried to introduce ID into schools , the people involved in that decision were run out of office ..in a VERY conservative and relgiouse part of PA.

Whats the difference its not like you get to vote on whats a fact .


But here have fun with this .

Poll: Majority Reject Evolution
51 Percent Believe God Created Humans

(Page 1 of 2)NEW YORK, Oct. 23, 2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(CBS/AP)



(CBS) Most Americans do not accept the theory of evolution. Instead, 51 percent of Americans say God created humans in their present form, and another three in 10 say that while humans evolved, God guided the process. Just 15 percent say humans evolved, and that God was not involved.

These views are similar to what they were in November 2004 shortly after the presidential election.

VIEWS ON EVOLUTION/CREATIONISM

Now
God created humans in present form
51%
Humans evolved, God guided the process
30%
Humans evolved, God did not guide process
15%

Nov. 2004
God created humans in present form
55%
Humans evolved, God guided the process
27%
Humans evolved, God did not guide process
13%

This question on the origin of human beings, asked both this month and in November 2004, offered the public three alternatives: 1. Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, and God did not directly guide this process; 2. Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, but God guided this process; or 3. God created human beings in their present form.

The results were not much different between the answers to that question and those given when a specific timeline was included in the final alternative: God created human beings in their present form within the last 10,000 years.

Americans most likely to believe in only evolution are liberals (36 percent), those who rarely or never attend religious services (25 percent), and those with a college degree or higher (24 percent).

White evangelicals (77 percent), weekly churchgoers (74 percent) and conservatives (64 percent), are mostly likely to say God created humans in their present form.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/22/opinion/polls/main965223.shtml

 

[UnoMOTO]

Brian I am talking of PERSONAL friends or people I know or interact with..one BTW is a Methodist minister and a therapist.

I dont think the issue carries enough importance for a poll to have been done.

Although in PA. When they tried to introduce ID into schools , the people involved in that decision were run out of office ..in a VERY conservative and relgiouse part of PA.

Whats the difference its not like you get to vote on whats a fact .


But here have fun with this .




http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/22/opinion/polls/main965223.shtml

Well this shows how much polls are worth then. Someone isn't being totally honest or the poll makers just might be looking for a specific trend to create a story out of nothing. I even gave my numbers more credit due to the spin of the story being that christianity is in decline.

EDIT: wait a minute...that artical still only shows 13% of americans believe evoluton directly as science shows. Thanks for backing me up!

 

[wfooshee]

Do I really have to point out to you that if you check yes under christian for example that creation would likely be a given or at least probable?

I would like to point out (again) that the Creation story is not a Christian doctrine. It's Old Testament, the same Old Testament used by Judaism. (Although interestingly, with slightly different wording in many verses. Perhaps a perspective difference on the part of the translators?)

Anyway, claiming Christianity as your religion in no way professes a belief in Creationism over the science of Evolution. Christian != Creationist (or the notation I was taught so many years ago: Christian <> Creationist.)

I would like to ask our European friends if this debate occurs with the same depth in your countries as it does here, or is it more of an American phenomenon? Just curious.

And (also again) majority rule does not make scientific fact.

 

[UnoMOTO]

I would like to point out (again) that the Creation story is not a Christian doctrine. It's Old Testament, the same Old Testament used by Judaism. (Although interestingly, with slightly different wording in many verses. Perhaps a perspective difference on the part of the translators?)

I don't get your point. Old or new testiment we still refer to genesis. Most Christian's and Jews believe in Creation. Wording, Phrasing or perspective still reverts to the original principal. Maybe ledhed could help me understand what your point is.

Anyway, claiming Christianity as your religion in no way professes a belief in Creationism over the science of Evolution. Christian != Creationist (or the notation I was taught so many years ago: Christian <> Creationist.)

It could for anyone that decides thats their choosen path.

And (also again) majority rule does not make scientific fact.

I wasn't stating scientific fact, I stated a statistical fact. Huge difference

 

[ledhed]

Well this shows how much polls are worth then. Someone isn't being totally honest or the poll makers just might be looking for a specific trend to create a story out of nothing. I even gave my numbers more credit due to the spin of the story being that christianity is in decline.

EDIT: wait a minute...that artical still only shows 13% of americans believe evoluton directly as science shows. Thanks for backing me up!

Like I said have fun with it.

 

[wfooshee]

I don't get your point. Old or new testiment we still refer to genesis. Most Christian's and Jews believe in Creation.

My point is that you are arguing Creationism because you're Christian, and claiming that all Christians (and now Jews) are Creationists. That just isn't so.

Strangely enough, I've never had a Jewish man come to me and tell me I was going to Hell because I thought we were descended from apes. I've had more than one Baptist preacher tell me I was in such danger.

I don't think we are descended from apes. I know that we ARE apes. Homo Sapiens is the top primate on Earth at the moment. There were other species of primates before us that no longer exist, some of which we may have displaced in the ecology. We were more successful, they lost their place in the world.

 

[UnoMOTO]

My point is that you are arguing Creationism because you're Christian, and claiming that all Christians (and now Jews) are Creationists. That just isn't so.

I NEVER said that ALL Christians believe in creation. I even used the words likely and probable, but thanks for paying attention. I am arguing creation because I don't believe what you do. Me and the other 85% of americans don't believe what you believe. Its much bigger then just christians and you should come to grips with that.

Strangely enough, I've never had a Jewish man come to me and tell me I was going to Hell because I thought we were descended from apes. I've had more than one Baptist preacher tell me I was in such danger

.

And your point is what? It appears you have a personal gripe with Christians in general and I am sorry for some of us leaving a bad taste in your mouth. I wish you had been treated better.

I don't think we are descended from apes. I know that we ARE apes. Homo Sapiens is the top primate on Earth at the moment. There were other species of primates before us that no longer exist, some of which we may have displaced in the ecology. We were more successful, they lost their place in the world.

Sorry but you can't possibly KNOW this. To you it should be likely or probable or that it is what you believe. I don't claim to KNOW that god created everything but I do believe that it happened that way. You see the evidence in front of you and you have decided to accept that as fact. But in the end It is not 100% fact, it is a conclusion to your theory.

 

[wfooshee]

And your point is what? It appears you have a personal gripe with Christians in general and I am sorry for some of us leaving a bad taste in your mouth. I wish you had been treated better.

I have no gripe with Christians or Christianity. I can think of no place better to teach my children how they should live their lives in a moral and just manner. The morality generally taught by most Christian churches I've been involved with is a morality I'd like my children to adhere to, mostly in the awareness of the consequences of one's actions on others. In other words, an awareness of how your actions will be seen by others, and how they see you as a result. It's what I try to teach at home, and it's what I like to see in their choices of friends. All too often they are told that whatever goes is OK as long as you don't get caught, and if you DO get caught, make it somebody else's fault.

I have a gripe with ignorance, and especially with ignorance by choice. I also have a gripe with claiming that Creationism is a Christian tenet, i.e. "because I believe in Jesus as Savior I believe in Creationism." There is no connection. "Ignorance by choice" is what I'm talking about when I compare the modern Creation Vs. Evolution debate with the church vs. Copernicus, and the church vs. Galileo. The church held steadfastly to its ignorant position for years and years and years. It's a position we hold up to ridicule nowadays. The church and its leaders were presented with good evidence that the positions held by Copernicus, then Galileo, were true facts, yet they insisted it could not be. They chose to remain ignorant.

Sorry but you can't possibly KNOW this. To you it should be likely or probable or that it is what you believe. I don't claim to KNOW that god created everything but I do believe that it happened that way. You see the evidence in front of you and you have decided to accept that as fact. But in the end It is not 100% fact, it is a conclusion to your theory.

I DO know this as fact. If you want to call it an acceptance of a high probability on my part, fine, but the probability is 100%, which becomes knowledge. I know that 1+1=2 with the same level of absoluteness that I know I am a primate. And even without the knowledge of humanity's place in the family tree of primates, it is readily apparent to even the most casual observer that we are not equine, bovine, canine, feline, or any other type of animal but primate.

Perhaps your objection to being a primate is the fact that primates are animals, and we are people. That is something that a lot of people do, place themselves above the rest of the animal world by claiming to be human, not animal. To say we can't be a primate because we are not an animal is again, ignorance of the highest order. The only thing we are missing compared to other primates is a tail, and we have the vestigial skeletal structure for that.

 

[Danoff]

I DO know this as fact. If you want to call it an acceptance of a high probability on my part, fine, but the probability is 100%, which becomes knowledge. I know that 1+1=2 with the same level of absoluteness that I know I am a primate.

Not to detract from the point you were making, but I don't agree with the above. You don't know evolution with 100% certainty. You don't even know 1+1=2 with 100% certainty. And you don't know them both with the SAME certainty.

Just putting in my two cents. Carry on.

 

[UnoMOTO]

I have no gripe with Christians or Christianity. I can think of no place better to teach my children how they should live their lives in a moral and just manner. The morality generally taught by most Christian churches I've been involved with is a morality I'd like my children to adhere to, mostly in the awareness of the consequences of one's actions on others. In other words, an awareness of how your actions will be seen by others, and how they see you as a result. It's what I try to teach at home, and it's what I like to see in their choices of friends. All too often they are told that whatever goes is OK as long as you don't get caught, and if you DO get caught, make it somebody else's fault.

In the end if I am wrong and religion was created just for moral purposes, I think that it was still worth all my wasted time.

"because I believe in Jesus as Savior I believe in Creationism."

I don't personally know a single christian who has said such a thing or believes this the way you worded it. Jesus died for our sins, and thats it. Creation is gods word and must be seperated from what you think of Jesus.

"Ignorance by choice" is what I'm talking about when I compare the modern Creation Vs. Evolution debate with the church vs. Copernicus, and the church vs. Galileo. The church held steadfastly to its ignorant position for years and years and years. It's a position we hold up to ridicule nowadays. The church and its leaders were presented with good evidence that the positions held by Copernicus, then Galileo, were true facts, yet they insisted it could not be. They chose to remain ignorant.

ah...and yet there is no real punishment for being ignorant. God still loves us all.

I DO know this as fact. If you want to call it an acceptance of a high probability on my part, fine, but the probability is 100%, which becomes knowledge. I know that 1+1=2 with the same level of absoluteness that I know I am a primate. And even without the knowledge of humanity's place in the family tree of primates, it is readily apparent to even the most casual observer that we are not equine, bovine, canine, feline, or any other type of animal but primate.

Perhaps your objection to being a primate is the fact that primates are animals, and we are people. That is something that a lot of people do, place themselves above the rest of the animal world by claiming to be human, not animal. To say we can't be a primate because we are not an animal is again, ignorance of the highest order. The only thing we are missing compared to other primates is a tail, and we have the vestigial skeletal structure for that.

My counter to this as I have said before is that god didn't start from scratch with each species. He had building blocks that he modified. Just my theory...no scientific back round to support that.

 

[Danoff]

Creation is gods word and must be seperated from what you think of Jesus.

The bible also says that you should go out and kill all non-believers (and everyone in a city largly populated by non-believers). Should I expect you at my door with a gun anytime soon?

If the answer to the above is no, what makes you think that part of the bible is any less correct than any other part? If the bible is God's word, and you truly believe that, you need to buy a gun (or a suicide jacket).

Here's an example

&#8220;He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed&#8221; (Exodus 22:20). &#8220;If thou shalt hear say . . . Certain men . . . saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword&#8221; (Deuteronomy 13:12-15). &#8220;That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman&#8221; (2 Chronicles 15:13).

&#8220;But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me&#8221; (Luke 19:27).

I've got more.

 

[UnoMOTO]

The bible also says that you should go out and kill all non-believers (and everyone in a city largly populated by non-believers). Should I expect you at my door with a gun anytime soon?

All that I was saying is that the birth, the life and the death of Jesus does not = creation as wfooshee is suggesting. The STORIES are not referencing each other.

If the answer to the above is no, what makes you think that part of the bible is any less correct than any other part? If the bible is God's word, and you truly believe that, you need to buy a gun (or a suicide jacket).

As for your quotes I will not even try to explain gods word. I couldn't begin to question what he did or didn't say. I could only tell you that since he sent his son to us things have changed. You could blow many holes in that line of thinking! It is very obvious that we don't follow each and every idea from the old testimant. Busted!

 

[Danoff]

As for your quotes I will not even try to explain gods word. I couldn't begin to question what he did or didn't say. I could only tell you that since he sent his son to us things have changed. You could blow many holes in that line of thinking! It is very obvious that we don't follow each and every idea from the old testimant. Busted!

Why not? It is God's literal word.

 

[FoolKiller]

Here's an example

I'm not letting the New Testament example (Luke 19:27) slide as you took it out of context. It is the final verse in a parable about a man who goes off to become king and leaves money behind with his servants. The servants who work hard and make more money are granted cities to rule over in the new kingdom but the man who did nothing and hid his money had it taken away from him and was rewarded with nothing. Everyone who earns more through their work gains more and those who earn nothing are given nothing (Sounds like your kind of story).

This final verse refers to the subjects who sent a delegation to prevent him from becoming king, traitors if you will. It was not Jesus commanding his disciples to bring non-believers in front of him and kill him.



Just keeping things in context.

 

[Danoff]

It's a general statement, even if it's contained within a particular story. I doesn't say bring Bob before me and slay him. It says bring "those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them".

Bring them all, not just this particular one.

 

[FoolKiller]

It's a general statement, even if it's contained within a particular story. I doesn't say bring Bob before me and slay him. It says bring "those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them".

Bring them all, not just this particular one.

It's a parabel being symbolic of God's kingdom. It is referring to spiritual death and not physically slaying non-Christians.

 

[Swift]

Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto [any] god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

You didn't qoute the rest of the chapter because? It talks about forgiveness and grace.

Deu 13:12 If thou shalt hear [say] in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

Deu 13:13 [Certain] men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

Deu 13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, [if it be] truth, [and] the thing certain, [that] such abomination is wrought among you;

Deu 13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that [is] therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

In other words, if you find people in your land that are rebelling against God, get rid of them. Do we not do that now? With peole that rebel against the government? I'm talking in the form of crimes and treason not free speech.

2Ch 15:13 That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

This was simply a time for unification of the two tribes of Israel(at the time) Judah and Benjamin.

Danoff, I have zero problem with you bringing scripture into this discussion, but you CAN'T take it out of context, as Foolkiller has said.

 

[UnoMOTO]

Why not? It is God's literal word.

If you reject Jesus and his impact on the bible you will have lots of trouble with gods word. I do understand the principal you are presenting and knowing where you stand I see why this is so confusing to you.

 

[Danoff]

Ok FK. I don't necessarily know when the death is supposed to be symbolic or literal. That's a big problem with me and the bible actually.

How about this:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Is that symbolic or literal?

(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed: they have forfeited their lives.

Kill the queers.

(2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with their hearts and souls; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

(Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

Human rights?