Creation vs. Evolution

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The most vocal and ferocious proponents of Creationism do not countenance any disagreement with their viewpoint, and no amount of evidence can change that viewpoint (a key difference between creationists and scientists).

My fascism metaphor. "What I say is true, and there is no other Truth. You will accept it and believe it!" The result if this "argument" to me is a complete and total loss of credibility.

A couple of weeks ago the Florida education folks "clarified" the meaning of the word "theory." It was hailed far and wide as a Creationist victory, because the state clearly defined a theory as, well, basically "not a law."

Duh.

The local paper quoted 2, maybe 3 of our school board members along the lines of "I believe God created Man, not that Man just happened. This is a good ruling from the state."

Now, whether that's a political position or an actual item of faith is difficult to say. . .
 
A couple of weeks ago the Florida education folks "clarified" the meaning of the word "theory." It was hailed far and wide as a Creationist victory, because the state clearly defined a theory as, well, basically "not a law."
Duh.


Ok, I'm sending out a public service message here. Are any of the creationists or even just religious folks here on this website still unclear about the terms theory and law? Why the "theory" of evolution could hardly be more iron-clad in terms of science?
 
A lot of interesting ideas have been banged around since I last checked in here, it seems!

On the historical evolution of religions (if there was ever a more ironic phrase ...), and some context as to why many still allow religion to dictate their understanding of scientific concepts:

Religious ideas, before the Roman Empire, tended to metamorphosize as scientific understanding advanced. This is how things should be. As someone pointed out a few posts back, we used to have sun gods, moon gods, animal gods, etc. As we began to understand more about our world, the need for these gods vanished. So, for the most part, did these concepts. The reason this process derailed so violently is traceable mostly to the pragmatic mindest of Roman rulers in the Empire's declining years. The last of the "pagan" religions (based on physical objects, i.e. the sun) were beginning to die out just as the two Abrahamic religions which existed at the time (Judaism and Christianity) began to rise in popularity. Pagan religions became observably false as understanding of cosmic phenomena expanded, and Abrahamic religions offered a more "introspective" outlook - they dealt with much more intangible concepts like morality, redemption, life and "life beyond", and as such, were essentially impossible to dismiss through scientific and philosophical methods of the time.

The Roman emperors noticed the dramatic surge in the popularity of these religions, and very swiftly moved to incorporate them in an official sense into the fabric of Roman (and hence most all of Western) society. This is why Christmas falls when it does - it coincides with a major Pagan holiday, which it replaced - the populace was used to a major holiday at the end of the year. Most historians believe Jesus was actually born sometime in the Spring, if I remember correctly.

Gibbon, author of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, believes that the incorporation of Christianity into the social framework played a large role in its eventual downfall. I don't necessarily agree as the reasons for the Empire's fall are obviously multitudinous. Nonetheless, the reach of the Roman Empire extended to the whole of the Western world. Its fall and the subsequent dark ages left Christianity the mysticism-of-choice to fall back on in the West, and a newcomer to the word stage, Islam, the mysticism-of-choice in the East.

The Enlightenment began to change all that. Once again, science took its place at the mantle of thoughtful society and, despite what modern religious leaders suggest, atheism became widespread and wasn't NEARLY so stigmatized as it is today. Man once again began the forward march of progress towards relegating religion to a proper role - the "explanation" of things science as yet could not address. We'd have continued down this road had it not been for that pesky pair of continents we call North and South America.

Those who longed for a return to "simpler", "more moral" times took advantage of this new unexplored and mostly unsettled land to found a multiplicity of nations mostly based on orthodox and puritan ideals. This coincided with a puritan revolution in Europe.

Geopolitically, right at this time, the world reached a point of relative stasis. There are no more lands to be explored, and the types of wars and conflicts that destroy entire nations, and as such, their religions, simply don't happen anymore. Historically, one religion became untenable scientifically, and would eventually, through war or politics, become obsolete. Now, three major religions have consolidated influence over the entire Western world, and much of the Eastern world. There is no more juxtaposition of ideas to mutate them, nor, unfortunately, is there evidence that this will happen anytime soon.

This all results in an uneasy balance between religion and science. With science reaching the point now where it's addressing concepts that obviate the need for the diminished capacity of religion, religion has no realm left to which it can retreat, and as such, must go on the attack. It's done so with distressing success since the puritan movement. Hopefully things will change, and concepts like Evolution will cease to be assaulted by those who see it as an attack on the crutch that supports their worldview. If not, I don't think I want to see the results.
 
Yet another brilliant post!

Your addition to this debate has certainly been an interesting one, and ive learnt even more from your posts.

👍
 
A couple of weeks ago the Florida education folks "clarified" the meaning of the word "theory." It was hailed far and wide as a Creationist victory, because the state clearly defined a theory as, well, basically "not a law."

Duh.
Duh indeed. However what they have effectively achieved is pretty far from a victory for Creationists if you ask me. Apparently they have succeeded in changing all references to "Evolution" in the proposed curriculum to "the scientific theory of Evolution", inadvertently emphasizing the fact that using that term requires the word theory to be defined. Ironic that a term specifically devised to foment doubt may actually help to make the term Evolution Theory less misunderstood! Similarly, in the interest of balance (so cherished by the ID movement), any references to "Intelligent Design" should be amended to read "the non-scientific theory of Intelligent Design", or perhaps even "the religious doctrine of Intelligent Design". Unfortunately the former has no place in science class and the latter is prohibited by the US Constitution!

wfooshee
The local paper quoted 2, maybe 3 of our school board members along the lines of "I believe God created Man, not that Man just happened. This is a good ruling from the state."

Now, whether that's a political position or an actual item of faith is difficult to say. . .

There's no question that the ID movement is a religiously-motivated political movement, and a fundamentally anti-scientific one to boot. It is truly worrying what lengths the ID lobby will go to to get their message across. In the excellent lecture by Ken Miller (in my sig, well worth a watch), he explains clearly that the ID lobby want no less than to change the definition of science itself so that ID theory can be rightly called science and therefore can rightly be taught in schools. Unfortunately, such an expansion of the definition of science - to include supernatural 'phenomena' - would also sanction the teaching of astrology, mysticism, witchcraft etc. - but that is apparently a price they are willing to pay.

I think people must be warned about just what it is that the ID lobby are really trying to do - to change the US Constitution to remove the parts of it that specifically prohibit the teaching of a particular religious doctrine in schools. Evolution theory is, in reality, small beer ("the thin end of the wedge" in ID-speak). The very fact that proponents of ID do not want us to know what their agenda really is - by going about their business in an underhand and nefarious manner - is a warning in itself.

Hopefully things will change, and concepts like Evolution will cease to be assaulted by those who see it as an attack on the crutch that supports their worldview. If not, I don't think I want to see the results.
👍 I totally agree, and I think the bolded phrase is of key importance here... the battle between Evolution and ID theory is but a proxy for a much larger war - Religious fundamentalists of all persuasions challenging those who will not allow them to indoctrinate people with their religious views via the nation's academic institutions...
 
Another subject I think we should touch upon is that of Holy Water. I'd love to know if someone knows the ins and outs of it, but I assume that it's just normal water that has been 'blessed'?
 
How do you know God is a HE? hmm ??? :sly:


Interesting question. Indeed, how does God do anything? We hear alot about what He (allegedly) does (or has (allegedly) done in the past...) We've heard a bit about what He is (allegedly) going to do in the future as well... We've even heard plenty about why He (allegedly) does what He (allegedly) does, but strangely we hear very little about how He's actually doing it. In the context of the Creation v Evolution debate (or more specifically, the origin of mankind debate), it is exactly these "how" questions that ID theory has a major problem with. Evolution theory addresses these "How" questions a lot more convincingly than the only answer ID theory ever produces - "God did it". Therefore, to answer your question in a way consistent with Intelligent Design theory, this is how God measures time - "He just does".


Pretty much. Given that human civilizations have always tracked the passage of time in terms of the relative movement of the Sun and Earth, I think we can safely say that a day on Earth today is pretty much the same length as a day on Earth has always been.
 
Another subject I think we should touch upon is that of Holy Water. I'd love to know if someone knows the ins and outs of it, but I assume that it's just normal water that has been 'blessed'?

AFAIK, yes.

Most of my biblical background comes from growing up in a Baptist household, and some limited academic study so I'm not too well versed in doctrine specific to Catholicism, but from what I know, it's simply water that's been blessed for the purpose of baptism and other sacred rites (including exorcism... <insert spooky ghost noises here>). I think it applies to exorcism mainly in Eastern Orthodox belief though, and is only used for that by splinter factions of the western Catholic Church. There's probably a Catholic following the thread who can explain it better than I can.

I do know one interesting "fact" about it though. Supposedly, if water has been blessed, you can add any amount of water up to the amount that was originally there, and all of the water will stay blessed. It's only when you add more water than was originally there that it needs to be re-blessed.

So basically, the Holy Spirit dilutes, to a point. I believe it's time for a study to explain the sudden inability of Spirit to dilute beyond a 50% solution :sly:
 
How do you know God is a HE? hmm ??? :sly:
Because he's never been referred to as anything else, and the Bible speaks of God as a he, and isn't the Bible basically the closest thing to "truth" you'll find withiin the Christian religion?


FAIL Basically.
 
How do you know God is a HE? hmm ??? :sly:

Because Christianity has been extremely oppressive towards women. I mean think about it, the Bible basically blames the problems of the world on Eve be she ate from the forbidden tree. Why would the leading figure in the Bible be a women?
 
Because he's never been referred to as anything else, and the Bible speaks of God as a he, and isn't the Bible basically the closest thing to "truth" you'll find withiin the Christian religion?


FAIL Basically.
Because Christianity has been extremely oppressive towards women. I mean think about it, the Bible basically blames the problems of the world on Eve be she ate from the forbidden tree. Why would the leading figure in the Bible be a women?
Both of you are killing me.

The closest reference you can find to God self-identifying with a gender is in the New Testament when Jesus refers to him as God the father. All references before then were men in a male controlled society making the assumption that if God had a gender it would be male because that was what made sense to them, as women were considered property.

By the time tales of powerful women came to surface the idea of God as male was ingrained in society.

And no the Bible does not blame Eve alone. It blames humans. Sin is the fault of all humans, not just women. If that were the case then only women would have been punished with suffering, but instead all humans are. Adam is just as guilty as eating the fruit after Eve told him to try it as Eve is for eating it after the snake told her to try it.

Many Old Testament stories are from times when women were considered property, yet others focus on women as having power. Then in the New Testament Jesus had women with him all the time, he treated women as equals.

The problem of gender inequality in Christianity is not in the Bible or the religion, it is in the men who lead the churches. You know, the same place most issues with the church come from.
 
Then in the New Testament Jesus had women with him all the time.

Was he some kind of pimp?

Back to seriousness.

If a snake was in the garden of eden, then Science must be wrong about them being legless lizards then? As I understand that's what Science says Snakes are.
 
I found an interesting article from a few years ago discussing one reason why Intelligent Design doesn't do a very good job of explaining the nature of living organisms from a philosophical point of view... It would be interesting to see what some non-evolutionists thought of it and whether they think today's Intelligent Design theory does any better a job of addressing this simple observation.

Lastly, there is still another general consideration, and one which appeals to my mind as of immense weight. The question, it will be remembered, lies between beneficent design and natural selection, and I think that the consideration about to be adduced is in itself alone sufficient to decide the question.

This consideration is that amid all the millions of mechanisms and instincts in the animal kingdom, there is no one instance of a mechanism or instinct occurring in one species for the exclusive benefit of another species, although there are a few cases in which a mechanism or instinct that is of benefit to its possessor has come also to be utilised by other species. Now, on the beneficent design theory it is impossible to explain why, when all the mechanisms in the same species are invariably correlated for the benefit of that species, there should never be any such correlation between mechanisms in different species, or why the same remark should apply to instincts. For how magnificent a display of divine beneficence would organic nature have afforded, if all, or even some, species had been so inter-related as to minister to each other's necessities. Organic species might then have been likened to a countless multitude of voices all singing in one harmonious psalm of praise. But, as it is, we see no vestige of such co-ordination; every species is for itself, and for itself alone - an outcome of the always and everywhere fiercely raging struggle for life.
 
It's an interesting question, TM. I'd be interested in a justification on that point as well from some ID advocates.

There's a noticeable trend in most religious doctrine, especially Christian, towards advocating self-sacrifice.

That said, one would assume if one believed in God that he meant his teachings to apply to beings with souls, since that's really what Christianity deals in - the salvation of the soul. In religious terms, animals do not posess souls, so far as I know, so would thereby have no need to be based on a design that promoted self sacrifice. What I've gathered from most religious individuals is that animals were all put on earth to serve man's needs, not to serve each others'.

Keep in mind this is a limited perspective from an atheist - I don't agree with the above statement, nor do I know that it's really how an ID proponent would think. Basically... just a guess.
 
Because he's never been referred to as anything else, and the Bible speaks of God as a he, and isn't the Bible basically the closest thing to "truth" you'll find withiin the Christian religion?


FAIL Basically.

Because Christianity has been extremely oppressive towards women. I mean think about it, the Bible basically blames the problems of the world on Eve be she ate from the forbidden tree. Why would the leading figure in the Bible be a women?

Bible was written by men, not God, so it's a skewed viewpoint.
 
Bible was written by men, not God, so it's a skewed viewpoint.

Or it was written by God through men.

I found an interesting article from a few years ago discussing one reason why Intelligent Design doesn't do a very good job of explaining the nature of living organisms from a philosophical point of view... It would be interesting to see what some non-evolutionists thought of it and whether they think today's Intelligent Design theory does any better a job of addressing this simple observation.

Before sin entered this world, there was a "countless multitude of voices all singing in one harmonious psalm of praise", but Adam and Eve disobeyed God and screwed it up for the rest of us.
 
My understanding of what Pako is saying is that all life was created sin-free but sin entered the world during the Fall of Man and life has been corrupted by sin ever since... although it's unclear if all life is corrupted by sin or just that which is corruptable... (as CLS suggests, only those with a soul may be susceptible, but who knows??)

Either way, I have a great deal of trouble accepting that cyanobacteria, plankton, starfish, pampas grass, giant sequoias and dolphins are even capable of being corrupted by sin, let alone that they actually are... yet they seem to be sharing our collective punishment regardless.
 
Either way, I have a great deal of trouble accepting that cyanobacteria, plankton, starfish, pampas grass, giant sequoias and dolphins are even capable of being corrupted by sin
Dolphins are masters of extramarital intercourse. And starfish...do you really think anything that can regrow limbs is not possessed by Satan?
 
A bit of fun to be had: Spot The Species!

These images were all pulled from public domain sites on the web, but I think it is only fair (and sensible) to credit the author(s) and source of the images (no, it's not advertising), although I do intend to buy the book myself. The images are from "Evolution [In Action]: Natural History Through Spectacular Skeletons" by Jean-Baptiste De Panafieu (Author) and Patrick Gries (Photographer). I had a long look at this book at the weekend, trying desperately not to get my greasy paw prints all over the beautiful black pages of the book... After a quick tour of the interweb, a bit of rescaling on Photoshop, and a little help from my GIF animator software, I came up with this:

evolution6001md3.gif

Answers:
1. Gorillas; 2. Wooly Monkey; 3. Gibbon; 4. Flying Fox; 5. Lemur; 6. Heron; 7. Wallaby; 8. Cheetah; 9. Giraffe; 10. Rhino Hornbill; 11. African Elephant (skull only); 12. African Elephant; 13. Hippo (+ Mouse); 14. Sea Lion; 15. Striped Dolphin; 16. Rattlesnake; 17. Giant Salamander; 18. Albatross; 19. Turtle;
 
Um, while I agree with the latter part of your statement, it&#8217;s impossible for a man and woman to be genetically identical&#8230;
 
Fig leaves are a cover-up! Fig leaves are a cover-up!

Not to hide parts and pieces, but to hide the fact that parts and pieces are the same!!!!


Oh, you meant genetically? Well, as pointed out, they couldn't be, could they? They'd be identical in every respect, including gender, and that makes for lousy "be fruitful."

OTOH, it depends on what you allow your margin of difference to be. If you say 4 or 5 percent is close enough, then we're all identical to chimpanzees.
 
God made Eve from Adam's rib cage .... so Adam and Eve are the same person genetically! It's in book of Genesis ... but I don't remember where though.



Um, while I agree with the latter part of your statement, it&#8217;s impossible for a man and woman to be genetically identical&#8230;

If Adam and Eve were genitally the same, God made a horrible, horrible mistake.

Fig leaves are a cover-up! Fig leaves are a cover-up!

Not to hide parts and pieces, but to hide the fact that parts and pieces are the same!!!!


Oh, you meant genetically? Well, as pointed out, they couldn't be, could they? They'd be identical in every respect, including gender, and that makes for lousy "be fruitful."

OTOH, it depends on what you allow your margin of difference to be. If you say 4 or 5 percent is close enough, then we're all identical to chimpanzees.

Please don't make me break out my Bible ... I wonder where it is? hmm
 
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