Creation vs. Evolution

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What gives teachers the right to TEACH their personal thoughts upon our children ? NOTHING
AT ALL !!!!

I agree, in fact I don't see anyone disagreeing with you.

Teachers shouldn't teach their personal opinions about religion on anyone. No science teacher has ever told me that god doesn't exist. Ever. In fact one of my biology teachers was a fairly big christian. I don't see what the issue is here.

If a teacher is imposing their beliefs on children they should be reported, simple.

Likewise a teacher shouldn't teach you god exists.
 
A particular child raised his hand in class and inquired about where mankind started from ( I am going to say that this kid obviously had no bringing up on this matter at home ). He was being inquisitive of this. The said teacher then began to teach Darwins theory of Evolution , and denying God in front of the class stating that God does not exist.The kids were sent home and told to write an essay about Darwins theory of Evolution,thats what got this whole thing rolling.
 
Historians value evidence. From the point of view of an historian, there is no valid primary evidence of the existence of any deity, but lots of valid primary evidence of evolutionary theory. His answer to the question would naturally lie with one and not the other and he was answering a question posed to him by a student to the best of his ability and strengths.

However, the question about the origins of mankind would be best served by a biologist.
 
This could be , not going to deny your statement , but the point at hand (IMO) is the fact of how this teacher handled this, by saying God does not exist and children should not adhere to the God and Creation theory and telling the kids to go home a write an essay on Darwin's theory of Evolution on how it's correct.

If the teacher did not know how to answer this , she should have sent the child home at the end of the school day and told the kid, " maybe you should talk to your parents on this " , AGREE ? or DISAGREE ?
 
Since we don't know the full circumstances and you are only giving us one side of the story then I don't think we can make an accurate call on if the teacher did the right or wrong thing.
 
If the teacher did not know how to answer this

The teacher clearly did know how to answer it, just not necessarily with a point of view shared by everybody. You can't balance out everything in everyday life with it's opposing point of view. If the teacher believes in evolution, then they're unlikely to get through with describing evolution and then say "or, this could all be wrong and God might have done it". If anything, that approach would be less educational and kids who are young enough to have to ask where people came from originally are likely to be completely perplexed by being given not one but two theories of existence.

If one of the kids had raised the "but mommy told me God created life" point, then maybe the teacher could have expanded. As Joey says above, we know too little to make an accurate assumption of the situation.
 
A particular child raised his hand in class and inquired about where mankind started from ( I am going to say that this kid obviously had no bringing up on this matter at home ). He was being inquisitive of this. The said teacher then began to teach Darwins theory of Evolution , and denying God in front of the class stating that God does not exist.The kids were sent home and told to write an essay about Darwins theory of Evolution,thats what got this whole thing rolling.

Well, the teacher should not have said God does not exist, just like no teacher should say god does exist. (so neither should a teacher participate in any prayer during school hours.)

This could be , not going to deny your statement , but the point at hand (IMO) is the fact of how this teacher handled this, by saying God does not exist and children should not adhere to the God and Creation theory and telling the kids to go home a write an essay on Darwin's theory of Evolution on how it's correct.

If the teacher did not know how to answer this , she should have sent the child home at the end of the school day and told the kid, " maybe you should talk to your parents on this " , AGREE ? or DISAGREE ?

DISAGREE,

First, 'creation' is not a theory in any scientific sense of the word, it's a creation hypothesis at best, but imo 'creation story' covers the meaning better.

If a kid asks why a pen falls to the ground, you don't want the teacher to tell the kid 'go home and ask you parents' , you want the teacher to tell about this great guy called Newton and his theory (and when they are old enough about how Einstein was correcting Newton with his Theory of Relativity.)
At least, i hope that is what you want, the children are in school to learn about reality. there is a place and a time for the creation hypothesis.

When a kid is sent to write an essay about the Theory of Evolution, did the teacher say what the content had to be? or was there room for a critical essay?

There is a reason why many christians accept evolution but hardly any non-christians accept biblical creation, that reason is called: Mountains of evidence for evolution with no evidence to the contrary.
 
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mindwise
If a kid asks why a pen falls to the ground, you don't want the teacher to tell the kid 'go home and ask you parents' , you want the teacher to tell about this great guy called Newton and his theory (and when they are old enough about how Einstein was correcting Newton with his Theory of Relativity.)
At least, i hope that is what you want, the children are in school to learn about reality.

👍

As someone who has taught biology at university, I'd ask parents who object to teaching (or even mentioning) evolution what they expect us to do... lie? I'm fundamentally opposed to deliberately misleading students, and morally obliged to teach the truth.

However, I think a teacher who uses evolution to push atheism is overstepping their remit and would be well advised to avoid doing so - but unfortunately, a logical consequence of learning the truth about the origin of species is to conclude that the Biblical version of events is dubious (to say the least). Teachers need not point that out, the facts do a pretty good job on their own.

Blaming the teacher, however, is a tad unfair - a classic case of shooting the messenger. Teachers have to tread a fine line between their moral obligation to educate, whilst avoiding offending the sensibilities of children and their parents who can be extremely unforgiving. The crux of the problem for biology teachers is that you simply cannot explain the diversity of life on Earth honestly without referring to evolution. For many teachers (and students), forcing creationism upon them is akin to asking them to intentionally lie and revoke their integrity.

Did you see the set of programmes (or maybe it was only one) on Channel 4 about Darwin? They were good, especially relating to his wife's strength of religious belief.

Also, currently there is a series called "Catastrophe" hosted by Baldrick. Really good. Also, there was a programme (again on C4) documenting the transition between wolf and dog and the story of the Russian physicist (I think he was a physicist), and how he created a whole new species of dog from a wild wolf in just SIX generations.
Catastrophe (by Baldrick :lol:) is great! I recently bought the Dawkins boxset with his three-part doc on Darwin for my cousin's birthday present - was tempted to keep it for myself :P
 
Care to take a trip over here to the states,over to my kids school district and approach the teacher that denies God and is trying to imply creation on MY kids mind by saying God does not exist. Oh yeah,this is a true story my friend. Gee , I wonder why that teachers class has had a major decline in it ( parents pulling kids from this class) and it is being fought as we speak at the district level !!!!! Lets be honest here , what would you call this ? I call it B******T.

I live in Delaware.

There is a difference between a teacher flatly stating that God does not exist and a teacher denying Creationism as a valid scientific theory. It also depends quite a bit on what the subject matter of the class is - God has no place in a science classroom. History, social studies, literature, fine: but not science.

But is there a difference between a teacher flatly denying that God exists (which you find completely unacceptable) and the numerous teachers I had as a child (and others my children have had) insisting that God does exist? I find the latter completely unacceptable in a public school setting as well. But of course, that doesn't go against what you are teaching your kids - it only goes against what I'm teaching mine.
 
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I live in Delaware.

There is a difference between a teacher flatly stating that God does not exist and a teacher denying Creationism as a valid scientific theory. It also depends quite a bit on what the subject matter of the class is - God has no place in a science classroom. History, social studies, literature, fine: but not science.

But is there a difference between a teacher flatly denying that God exists (which you find completely unacceptable) and the numerous teachers I had as a child (and others my children have had) insisting that God does exist? I find the latter completely unacceptable in a public school setting as well. But of course, that doesn't go against what you are teaching your kids - it only goes against what I'm teaching mine.

Yeah, now see this here I could certainly deal with. Keep God in the history or socialogy courses. When talking science there is no need to talk about God as you are exploring scientific possibilities that you can actually apply in the physical realm.

Teachers shouldn't advocate one belief system over another. But they shouldn't let someone's get trounced either.

BTW, at 295 pages are we still talking about this? :D
 
My Biology teacher did a perfect job. He taught evolution, but also showed us a movie about the whole trial about teaching creationism in science class. The one with cdesign proponentsists and Of Pandas and People. It was very interesting and didn't deny god's existence, just showed why he wasn't going to teach it to us.
 
My Biology teacher did a perfect job. He taught evolution, but also showed us a movie about the whole trial about teaching creationism in science class. The one with cdesign proponentsists and Of Pandas and People. It was very interesting and didn't deny god's existence, just showed why he wasn't going to teach it to us.

That sounds like a happy medium to me.
 
This is part one of Millers lecture for the summe rcamp lectures of the Howard Hughes Medical Institute.
An entertaining and informing lecture.
For the ones interested, Miller is a (christian) cell biologist and was a prime witness in the Dover trial and the Kansas trial. on evolution vs intelligent design
A link to the second part is posted underneath, that one will take you to the other parts.


part 2 of Millers lecture

Enjoy.

(part 6 is where Behe's 'irreducable complexity' gets schooled by reality )
 
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"Irreducible complexity" is fairly easy to demolish. I did it earlier in this thread, off the top of my head, in about 5 minutes with zero research.
 
Actually it looks to me like Miller does too thorough a job with the irreducible complexity argument.

On the one hand he claims that the natural complexity is reducible (therefore, not all designed together). On the other hand, he claims the the moustrap is reducible (therefore, complexity is reducible).

Suddenly the first argument doesn't hold water. He's refuted the irreducible complexity argument, but he's knocked the pillar out from under himself when trying to prove that reducible complexity implies a lack of design.
 
Danoff
Actually it looks to me like Miller does too thorough a job with the irreducible complexity argument.

On the one hand he claims that the natural complexity is reducible (therefore, not all designed together). On the other hand, he claims the the moustrap is reducible (therefore, complexity is reducible).

Suddenly the first argument doesn't hold water. He's refuted the irreducible complexity argument, but he's knocked the pillar out from under himself when trying to prove that reducible complexity implies a lack of design.

Excellent point, and I see what you mean - however I don't think that he shoots himself in the foot too badly...

The fact that designed things can be reducibly complex is not Miller's fault, so he's not wrong to (perhaps inadvertently) bring attention to this fact. But the quality of being reducibly complex is not proof of design, since non-designed things can also be reducibly complex! The presence of reducible complexity in living systems strongly supports the idea of a gradual, multistep formation process such as that proposed by evolution theory considerably more than it supports the instant, single-step process as described in "Special Creation".

The idea that living systems are reducibly complex at all is enough to make strident creationists very unhappy indeed. The fact that reducible complexity leaves room for atleast some level of design i.e. at any level lower than an entire living creature, is no good... that whole point of Special Creation is that we aren't cobbled together with common bits and bobs in a piecemeal fashion. What's the point in claiming that our cells might have been designed, but that the whole organism that they combine to form wasn't?

The whole idea behind the irreducible complexity concept is not so much to prove the design hypothesis (which arguably is a very difficult task) but to discredit the notion that reducible complexity exists in nature, thus leaving the possibility of gradual, stepwise evolution open. The fact that even the most complex living systems are demonstrably reducibly complex means that they could have evolved, thus destroying the idea that they must have been designed.
 
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To take a quote from Michael Behe...

An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly (that is, by continuously improving the initial function, which continues to work by the same mechanism) by slight, successive modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional.

The last bit contradicts the evolutionary model, doesn't it? As the evolutionary model predicts/suggests a gradual slight-by-slight change, rather than the adding of parts from previous systems.
 
To take a quote from Michael Behe...



The last bit contradicts the evolutionary model, doesn't it? As the evolutionary model predicts/suggests a gradual slight-by-slight change, rather than the adding of parts from previous systems.

That's what Behe and other Creationists are trying to do: set up an argument that evolution can't win. They state something is "irreducibly complex", then use their own definition to 'prove' that the item in question (eyeball, brain, whatever) could not possibly have functioned in any other form than its current state. If it could not have functioned in a less-complex state, then it is 'impossible' for it to have evolved - it must have been created/designed.

However, they use false syllogisms when defining things as irreducible, which invalidates their proofs.
 
I may be mistaken, but haven't other "stages" of eyes, brains, etc been shown in other animals on the planet?
 
It's funny, if everything was designed, then why not go all out? I mean why just see only a certain range of the wave spectrum, why not let humans see everything! I want night vision, x-ray vision, and thermal imaging! Another thing is how scientists say that humans only use so much of their brain (various aliens in the movies also say this). Why not design humans so they can utilize all the brain has to offer? Oh well, I guess I'm stuck with my crappy normal vision and my C-average in school! :lol:
 
I may be mistaken, but haven't other "stages" of eyes, brains, etc been shown in other animals on the planet?

Of course they have.

A Creationist on another forum
And like that blow hole moving around, was there an almost working thymus for a billion years and then the last pop came along and the thing started working? I don't think so, and that doesn't fit with your religion's teachings either. That's one of those "magic" things you are just expected to accept on "faith."

My reply
You're making the logical error of "irreducible complexity" here. Why is it inconceivable that a proto-thymus might work a little bit, then work a little bit better every million years or so until it finally is working as it does now? And why assume that the way it works now is not still changing? Remember that one-thousandth of one percent of geological time thing. You state that the thymus does its job early in life, and then shrivels up and dies. Perhaps in another hundred million years the thymus will be something that grows, functions, and disappears in utero during fetal development. Kind of like our tails do.

Creationists/IDers (they're the same thing; no one is fooling anyone) often point to the human eyeball as a function of irreducible complexity that "proves" life is designed. They claim (as you are with the thymus) that an eyeball is too complicated to simply appear as a mutation. Again, they're right, given their assumptions, but again, the assumptions are wrong.

Say you have a proto-animal with skin cells (permit me to start here, please) that begin to sense touch and temperature. That's clearly an advantage that is likely to get selected for and passed on to offspring. So after a few million years, certain of those cells mutate to have a rudimentary sensitivity to light and dark. Is it a complete eye? No. But it is an advantage. Eventually, selection shows that these light-patches work best when they're bunched up near the brain for quick input. Then, millions of years later, it is clear that if the patch of light-sensitive cells are dished into the skin a bit, the animal can tell if the light is to its left or right. Again, a definite advantage. NOW it is a rudimentary eye, even though it doesn't have an iris or a lens. And if it's taken ten million years to get this far, who cares?! We've got about 990 million years left in ONE billion... and life has been on Earth for about THREE billion years. Plenty of time to add a clear covering (to protect the eye cells) that then slowly becomes able to focus the light onto the sensitive cells at the back. And time after that to develop a tiny flap of muscle that opens and closes to regulate the amount of light coming in. That should take what, the rest of out first billion years? Great! That leaves us about two billion more years to play with (assuming that we spent half a billion just getting to the skin cells stage, and another half a billion developing our lensed eye). I bet we could cover eyelids and lashes in that time, don't you think?

So CLEARLY our proto-eye was a definite advantage to our proto-animal, miraculously, even though it was not yet a complete and fully functional, color-sensitive, irised, binocular orb.

Amazing how that works when you don't define it as an impossibility from the outset.
 
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Another thing is how scientists say that humans only use so much of their brain (various aliens in the movies also say this).

That's actually an urban myth, we use all of our brain.
Though admittedly, i have my doubts with some people :D (not referring to creationists btw).

The Intelligent Design notion, compelling at first glance i admit, of course falls apart when one scratches beneath the surface like you did.

To pile one another example, the gene that produces the enzymes enabling vitamin c production in cats and k9's (in most animals in fact) is found in humans and other apes too, but just broken. (a pseudogene).
 
Thanks for the link. I decided to watch all of the 9 slots on youtube, it was very interesting indeed.

Thanks for the effort Stevisiov :)


(edit, sorry for this doublepost, i wanted to incorporate this quote into my previous post, but clearly failed ;))
 
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It's funny, when you think of it... if we're pointing at things that "couldn't work" in other evolutionary stages, as creationists are wont to do, why not point at things that don't work in humans, at the moment? Like that Vitamin C gene... or, structurally, the appendix, functionally, goosebumps... seriously,, why do we need to puff up our fur if we don't have any? It's pathetic... :lol:
 
I dare say that some folk are hairy enough for goose bumps to actually do what they are ment to do.
 
But our hair isn't stiff or straight enough for that to work. Unfortunately.

Those two are the ones I know, plus a little here and there from Anatomy 101 and the study of reflexes... we actually have a plantar (toe curling) grasp reflex as babies... along with our palmar (finger curling) grasp reflex... this would allow babies to grip their mothers' fur and hold on to them as the mothers walked around... but we don't have fur to grip, and human babies are too weak to hold themselves up in the air with their hands... not to mention the fact that our toes are too ridiculously short to do any grasping at all.

Creationism views the human as perfect. The study of the human body, medically, reveals so many things that could be better if it were purposefully designed, instead of the way it is now. And it's not difficult to do so... the facts are all there for people to study or ignore as they please.

A little research online makes for fascinating reading... did you know that that little bump on the inside corner of our eyes is a vestigial remnant of a nictitating membrane? Incredible.
 
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Creationism views the human as perfect. The study of the human body, medically, reveals so many things that could be better if it were purposefully designed, instead of the way it is now. And it's not difficult to do so... the facts are all there for people to study or ignore as they please.
This is the ultimate irony of the design argument - it assumes that everything was originally designed as we see it now and for all time. No prospect for improvement, and no ability to adapt to changing needs. Evolution, on the other hand, means that adaptation is possible, and that all present-day species are optimally tuned (notice I don't say 'perfectly') to their present environments. Whether one accepts evolution or not, it is easy to see which option is the better long-term strategy...
 
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