Creation vs. Evolution

  • Thread starter ledhed
  • 9,687 comments
  • 432,202 views
I'll second Duke's suggestion above since a lot of ground has been covered (multiple times) in this thread - including the scientific basis for evolution. But I should respond to this:

ir⋅ra⋅tion⋅al
   /ɪˈræʃənl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [i-rash-uh-nl]
–adjective
1. without the faculty of reason; deprived of reason.
2. without or deprived of normal mental clarity or sound judgment.
3. not in accordance with reason; utterly illogical: irrational arguments.
4. not endowed with the faculty of reason: irrational animals.

The issue is how you couch the term, because irrational has the connotation of "crazy" or "insane."

I'm not using the term "irrational" lightly here. I'm not using to mean crazy or insane. I'm using it literally as meaning "not rational". Irrespective of whether anyone in the scientific community ever believes anything that isn't rational, faith describes an emotional/spiritual understanding as opposed to an understanding based on rationality.

Quite simply, the rational school of thought is a polar opposite to faith. So the term "irrational" is actually quite accurate - regardless of how it might get thrown about by people who mean something else.
 
I suggest you retake your high school chemistry and biology classes, Tanacious D, because...

...constant accidental genetic improvements...
...two parts of Hydrogen and one part of Oxygen don't "accidentally" make water. As a matter of fact, no chemical reaction ever has been or ever will be "accidental"--analysis of chemical reactions is based on simple math, which you know never lies.
 
Not to mention that there's nothing accidental about genetic improvements and evolution. It's very non-accidental in fact. That's why it's called "survival of the fittest", not "survival of the luckiest"...
 
Well luck plays a very large factor when we look at short time spans, fortunately when we look at vast time scales probability wins out.

Its a bit like tossing a coin. Toss the coin 4 times and its not implausible that you get heads 75% of the time, thanks to luck. Toss it 10 million times and luck doesn't stand a chance of overcoming probability.

Your absolutely right, while helpful mutations are spontaneous and luck of the draw, probability and the large time scales involved make these mutations almost certain and predictable.

I know you are fully aware of this, I just thought I would expand on your comment. 👍
 
If you breed a fast racehorse with another fast horse, is it luck if the offspring is even faster? Or is it the result of genetic selection?
 
Well luck plays a very large factor when we look at short time spans, fortunately when we look at vast time scales probability wins out.

Its a bit like tossing a coin. Toss the coin 4 times and its not implausible that you get heads 75% of the time, thanks to luck. Toss it 10 million times and luck doesn't stand a chance of overcoming probability.

Your absolutely right, while helpful mutations are spontaneous and luck of the draw, probability and the large time scales involved make these mutations almost certain and predictable.

I know you are fully aware of this, I just thought I would expand on your comment. 👍

Thanks :)

It's not just the luck of mutations and the like I'm referring to though, it's more the effect any mutations have on actions (for example, the development of cognitive ability increasing intelligence and allowing a species to think it's way through a previously unworkable puzzle), and these actions then allowing a species to advance ahead of another, thus increasing the likelihood of even more positive mutations.

Stronger, more intelligent, quicker etc survive, the weaker don't. And because the stronger etc survive, they advance and the stronger of those advance again, with the weaker being left behind. Luck becomes less and less important, especially over a large timespan like you mentioned.

Obviously, luck can play a small part - if a whole species was washed away in a flood and drowned, the evolutionary process would be curtailed. Short-term events can have long-term outcomes.

If you breed a fast racehorse with another fast horse, is it luck if the offspring is even faster? Or is it the result of genetic selection?

I guess when a species such as the human being gets to a certain level, they have the ability to "improve" natural selection, such as the breeding of racehorses you describe.

Can also have bad effects though - such as pedigree animals, that are essentially inbred, lacking the strong immune systems of cross-bred animals. Their species survive thanks to the human input in breeding, but their evolution suffers.
 
If you breed a fast racehorse with another fast horse, is it luck if the offspring is even faster? Or is it the result of genetic selection?
I don't like the word luck. I like the word chance. There's a chance that you could have a three legged mentally retarded horse that can only hobble backwards. But we can use our known history of horses to see that that's not very probable at all, and we'll just assume that yes, it'll probably perform at least as well as its parents.

But breed those horses constantly for the next thousand years...and hell it might be quicker to hop on Momma's Money and ride 'er to the grocery store than hopping in your Camaro. :lol: But we've already done it so much that it's obvious that the combination of good genes tend to create good, and sometimes even better, genes.
 
It seems the first winner of the first round of the first ever "youtube PwnOlympics" is good to insert into the discussion here...

This particular video addresses 'increase of information in the gnome', with science :D

Enjoy:

 
If you breed a fast racehorse with another fast horse, is it luck if the offspring is even faster? Or is it the result of genetic selection?

I think you missed my point, which is understandable given I often lack ability to explain myself particularly well.

I will try again.

Not to mention that there's nothing accidental about genetic improvements and evolution. It's very non-accidental in fact. That's why it's called "survival of the fittest", not "survival of the luckiest"...

I agree with this quote but I felt the need to clarify where I stand on it. I think with a large reference frame, this quote seems perfectly legitimate. However with a smaller reference frame (say 1 generation), survival of the luckiest may be just as applicable.

Say a mouse has a small genetic advantage over a weaker competitor, this helps squat all, if the 'stronger' mouse finds itself in the wrong place at the wrong time. On the same token the weaker competitor might pass on its 'inferior' genes, simply by 'getting lucky'.

In this instance, 'survival of the luckiest' has played a large factor, against the odds it has beaten 'survival of the fittest'.

Take a bigger sample however (say 1 million stronger mice Vs. 1 millions weaker mice), the luck factor of these individual cases cancels out. The results being higher survival rates of those mice with the small genetic advantage. Quite rightly stated, there is nothing lucky or accidental about that.

So why did I feel the need to expand Homeforsummers statement?

Well it doesn't necessarily hold validity on these small reference frames. I believe this is where most people go wrong when assessing the plausibility of evolution, or more specifically the process of natural selection, in this sort of situation.

They would look at a statement like homeforsummers and think "well that's not right", because it may initially seem contrary to their everyday experience. I think it has a lot to do with them simply looking at their own and their parents and grand parents as references for validity, when in reality you have to look much further back in terms of generations before the pattern becomes obviously apparent. Understandably, many people can't really visualise the scale of time and numbers involved, which can also taint their perception of the plausibility of natural selection.

Homeforsummers statement is bang on about natural selection, but I feel many people who don't fully understand it, would apply the wrong context to his statement and getting the wrong outcome as a result.

I think an important part of helping people understand the process of evolution, is by helping them understand exactly how large of time scale we are looking at and help them visualise the huge sample sizes involved. Only then can the begin to appreciate how plausible the step by step process is, and how plausible the mechanics of natural selection really are.

As for you question. I would say its probability to thank for getting a fast horse from two fast parents. Of course by the same token, the possibility of getting a slow horse is still there, so by chance it is not inconceivable that we do get slow horse.
 
I would also add that 'fittest' doesn't mean 'physically fitter' i.e. "stronger, faster, smarter", but "better adapted" (i.e. "a better fit for the environment an organism finds itself in"). It's a subtle but important point, not least because Creationists make a big deal out of the misplaced notion that evolution somehow justifies mistreating "the weak". Sure, there are plenty of occasions where "stronger, faster, smarter" will improve an organism's chances of surviving, but it isn't the prerequisite for evolution... mere survival is what determines the path that evolution takes. Whereas man may select for "desirable" traits in domesticated animals such as sheep, dairy cows, race horses etc., natural selection has no pre-determined ideas about what it wants... selection is automatic, based purely on the basis of what "fits" best. Things like camouflage and mimicry are good examples of ways in which "weaker, slower, dumber" creatures can easily survive despite being in an environment chock full of things "stronger, faster and smarter" than they are, and that would quite like them for breakfast.

As such, I would argue that viewing evolution as a continual path of "improvement" is slightly incorrect - "change" definitely, but improvement? Not necessarily...

homeforsummer
Stronger, more intelligent, quicker etc survive, the weaker don't. And because the stronger etc survive, they advance and the stronger of those advance again, with the weaker being left behind

The problem with this is that it implies that modern lifeforms are, by the logic of this argument, superior to their ancestors at all levels - that lifeforms are in a constant arms race and that "improvement" is the goal of evolution, but I don't think that it is. "Improvement" may well be one possible consequence of evolution, but it is not the only one. There is a common belief that humans represent the "pinnacle of evolution", not merely due to pride or bias, but because of the fact that we really are the cleverest animals ever to have existed - but this doesn't mean that we represent the pinnacle of what evolution is capable of, or even the pinnacle of what evolution has achieved thus far... it only means that our own evolutionary path is unique - but you can say the same for everything that has ever lived!

But the idea that "more intelligent" will out-survive "less intelligent" is not certain... we already know that our intelligence is a curse as well as a blessing. We are the first species to have lived on this planet with the ability to wipe itself off the face of that planet in a matter of months - not only that, but we also know that there is a good chance that we might just do it too. Given that our species, remarkable and unique as it is, has existed in its present form for only a couple of million years at the very most, I would say that the argument that humans are the "pinnacle of evolution" was pretty far off the mark.

The key point is that evolution, although capable of improvement, or capable of producing complexity from simplicity, is not uniquely concerned with "progress" or "improvement", but is merely the method by which adaptation allows species to fit into the myriad environmental niches that come and go over time. "Better adapted" is better for the current time and place, but not necessarily "better" full stop... our human mental ability may give us a uniquely time-independent advantage, but we are the exception rather than the rule. Put modern day lions in the Savannahs of the late Cretaceous and see how much evolution has improved their survival chances!

Perhaps the true pinnacle of evolution was the first free-living bacterium from which all life today evolved...?
 
Perhaps the true pinnacle of evolution was the first free-living bacterium from which all life today evolved...?

I guess that you could argue there is no such thing as a 'pinnacle' of evolution since there is no goal of evolution, evolution is simply a biomechanical process which follows a set of physical laws. Its a cycle determined laws by the laws of physics/chemistry, rather than an engineered process.

If there was no objective to begin with, then pinning a pinnacle tag on it seems fruitless.

Not to detract from your post. I fully agree with it infact, I simply used the term stronger as a simpler way of making my point. I used the term genetic advantage initially (which I perhaps should have used the whole way through my post), however I put 'stronger' in, to help illustrate my point, as a potential advantage. I made sure it was in inverted comma's to help show that 'stronger' was a very broad definition, of any potential advantageous attributes (be it stronger character, stronger will :D) I should have been clearer though. 👍
 
Perhaps the true pinnacle of evolution was the first free-living bacterium from which all life today evolved...?

Nice post TM,

And your last remark is spot on, it inspired me to what i consider the pinnacle of evolution, and i'm pretty close to your idea.

I think the pinnacle of evolution is the first event of heredity, unless that should be considered the Achilles Heel, and the pinnacle is the diversity of life.

Darn, need to think more about this because, obviosly from my human perspective, intelligence is high on the "ladder" (sorry for using that word :P)
 
Thanks 👍 It wasn't intended as a criticism of the preceding posts, though, but I did think a bit of clarification was justified - although I couldn't help putting in a bit of my own opinion/feelings in there too...

The video you posted was hilarious, even though the guy is just a bit annoying - but obviously that is part of the fun!

Just seeing your sig reminds me of an incident at work earlier today, during our morning coffee break... I mentioned that I had put some YouTube vids on my iPod, including some Carl Sagan clips. To my surprise, a younger workmate of mine, also interested in evolution, asked "Who's Carl Sagan?", to which another workmate replied, "Oh, he's a cosmologist who dabbles in science fiction writing". It was as much I could do to hide my horror, not just at what he said, but also the way he said it, blithely dismissing the life and work of Carl Sagan in one casual sentence, as if to say "meh, who cares?" and clearly intended to stiffle further inquiry. It was a bit like saying "Oh Darwin? Yeh. He's a botanist who dabbles in sailing" or "Elvis? Yeh. He's a singer who also enjoys eating hamburgers".... all arguably true, but missing the point just a smudge.

By the way, the quote in my signature is also (sort of) a Carl Sagan quote, albeit paraphrased by Brian Cox, and taken from his talk at TED about the Large Hadron Collider...
 
Last edited:
I'm gonna put in a vote for humans being the pinnacle of evolution. The fact that no species has ever before been capable of wiping itself out in a short period of time is a testament to our mental prowess. For eons mother nature ruled over every living being. Now suddenly we are the masters. Yes, we may end up being short lived. We may end up wiping ourselves out or dying off from some disease. But no creature ever before on this planet can say they understood the universe to the degree that we do.

We are unparalleled in our understanding and exploration of reality. And for that reason I have to say we're not just the pinnacle of evolution, but that the margins aren't particularly close.
 
Fantastic post by TM at the top of the page, but I'd just like to clarify what I meant, and with regard to this post also:

However with a smaller reference frame (say 1 generation), survival of the luckiest may be just as applicable.

I entirely agree - which is why in my own post I did actually say:

Obviously, luck can play a small part - if a whole species was washed away in a flood and drowned, the evolutionary process would be curtailed. Short-term events can have long-term outcomes.

I wasn't ruling out luck as a factor at all - with the flood example being an instance where a species that was further evolved yet lived in a flood plain would be at a disadvantage from a species that was maybe behind in several factors, but lived up on a hill instead.

And again, I suppose I didn't make myself particularly clear, but I am aware that the term "survival of the fittest" doesn't just refer to a physically stronger species. It can also refer to ability to overcome illnesses, all cognitive abilities... as TM said, it's fittest as in "fit for purpose", rather than fit in the literal sense of the word.

This being a car forum, think of it as a Fiat Panda versus a Ferrari Enzo around a very tight, 1/4 mile go-kart circuit - the Enzo may be the "fitter" of the cars, but it's "evolutionary advantages" mean little when it's completely out of it's element and strangled compared to it's natural environment (i.e, fast, flowing race circuits). Despite it's evolutionary disadvantages, the Panda may well have the upper hand in that environment.
 
Humanity could be considered the "pinnacle" if we've reached a stage at which we cannot, will not, and do not need to evolve anymore. Of course, there's some suggestions that micro-evolution is still occuring amongst humans... but then, we'd have to consider sharks, cockroaches and various other unchanging species the pinnacles of their respective family trees... at a stage beyond which further evolution is not required.

Great post, TM...

I'd like to point out, as a very, very worrying example of survival of the "fittest"... mass extinctions.

When we have an extinction-level-event (to borrow a phrase from "Deep Impact"), organisms above a certain weight threshold are more vulnerable to extinction than smaller organisms. These events helped spur evolution on the path that has lead to us. I guess "luck" might be seen as a factor in these events, but it's more of the inherent adaptability and low-energy requirements small organisms have that lead to their survival in these events.

Cars are an excellent example of micro-evolution. Fitness, amongst cars, is decided by their ability to survive. In other words, they have to meet safety and pollution requirements in their chosen habitats, and they have to be able to convince customers that they are worth buying.

Every time you have an extinction-level-event in the car kingdom (i.e.: an oil crisis), the bigger, powerful and more expensive cars, though arguably fitter than their more common brethren, die off. I've long said that the 350Z was the harbringer of the next "oil crisis". It may have come a few years late... but it still came... :lol:

Thus, come the next big one, the only things left on this planet will be rats and Corollas.

Evolution in action, baby. :lol:
 
Last edited:
natural selection has no pre-determined ideas about what it wants... selection is automatic, based purely on the basis of what "fits" best. Things like camouflage and mimicry are good examples of ways in which "weaker, slower, dumber" creatures can easily survive despite being in an environment chock full of things "stronger, faster and smarter" than they are, and that would quite like them for breakfast.

As such, I would argue that viewing evolution as a continual path of "improvement" is slightly incorrect - "change" definitely, but improvement? Not necessarily...

You've hit the nail on the head, improvement would suggest some kind of thinking behind the science. Change works because there is no one set environment, how many different environments are there on the planet? Millions, probably. How many creatures which shared a common ancestor, recent would be better for this point, live in completely different environments, yet are closely related? Many.

Nice post, TM. :)
 
I tend to liken evolution to sandblasting.

Each grain of sand in a sandblaster is not smart or guided by some intelligent designer. It is a simple random spray of abrasive material, yet the grains that strike poor, rusty metal remove that bit of sub-standard weakness, while the grains that strike strong, solid material simply bounce off.

So what's left is the solid material while the degenerate stuff is cleaned away.
 
If you truly believe in evolution than Humans will evolve into another --" better" species..
It can be due to climate change or a natural disaster ---or just mutation as the enviroment we created changes and forces us to adapt --we can even accelerate it on our own with Genome study and cloning --stem cell research --
" Pinacle " ?

I think not .
I think we are just a blip on the radar .
 
Oh, I am so relieved.... I have [preacher voice] found The Answer!!! [/preacher voice]

I got a brochure in the snail mail yesterday from these fine folks which explains the whole problem with Creationism overcoming things like the size of the Universe and the 6000-year age limit of scripture.

Science has been wrong these last 400 years about the shape of the cosmos! The Earth is the center of the Universe, and all the things we observe in the sky move about the stationary Earth. Geocentrism apparently allows a smaller Universe than heliocentrism, which keeps the outer sphere of the heavens within the 6000-light-year boundary. The clincher for me was the discussion on that page of the expansion of the Universe:

... that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Isaiah 40:22). Curtains stretch but tents do not. These verses do not indicate continuous expansion as secular science teaches us.

Well, there you have it. Doesn't get any more fundamentally sound than that, does it?

(I think what I've actually found is another contribution to the third line in my sig.)
 
Evidence of "God's hand"...


b1509.jpg



[/Thread]

;)
 
Oh, I am so relieved.... I have [preacher voice] found The Answer!!! [/preacher voice]

I got a brochure in the snail mail yesterday from these fine folks which explains the whole problem with Creationism overcoming things like the size of the Universe and the 6000-year age limit of scripture.

Science has been wrong these last 400 years about the shape of the cosmos! The Earth is the center of the Universe, and all the things we observe in the sky move about the stationary Earth. Geocentrism apparently allows a smaller Universe than heliocentrism, which keeps the outer sphere of the heavens within the 6000-light-year boundary. The clincher for me was the discussion on that page of the expansion of the Universe:

Well, there you have it. Doesn't get any more fundamentally sound than that, does it?

(I think what I've actually found is another contribution to the third line in my sig.)

Oh my giddy aunt. That website is not only cataclysmically difficult to read (seriously as if the writing style wasn't bad enough, at least half of the text is quotes from the Bible dotted about at random) but also the biggest load of tosh I've read in quite a while.

It appears they want to seem more open-minded than fundamentalist creationists, but then they're attempting to use words found in scriptures to qualify scientific theories, and then attempt to back this up by effectively saying "well if you read here, it says that God was telling the truth, so it must be true!" Example:

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also” (Genesis 1:16, 17). By including “the stars,” the moon is the lesser light for the entire universe; the distance to “the uttermost part of the heaven” (Nehemiah 1: 9). This is basic foundational truth to the understanding of scripture and I emphasize again, before sin entered the world. “For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure” (Job 11:4). We cannot ignore or bypass any of these words.

Right, hang on, so because sin apparently didn't exist at this point, someone can make up any old drivel and it becomes fact? Or am I misinterpreting their interpretations?...

Another paragraph that made me laugh:

How far is the Voyager 1 rocket from the earth? The secular scientists write that it is 9.5 billion miles from the earth. It started out on a certain date at a known speed which equals a certain distance. How accurate is this? How far out does the Lord say the rocket is in scripture? “I will instruct thee…I will guide thee with mine eye (Psalms 32:8). Let's look through scripture instead of a telescope for final authority. Perhaps the Voyager rocket is no further out than 1 billion miles or less. How could this be? Wheels on a car turn at a certain speed on a highway and the car maintains a steady speed, but if the car drives into “quicksand” (Acts 27:17), the wheels spin at the same rate yet the car slows down.

"Let's look through scripture..." Yes, lets. I mean, that's going to tell us far more about something we can actually observe than looking through a telescope :odd: It gets better though. The bit about the car? Here's what the metaphor relates to:

After traveling a certain distance, the rocket encounters “the hoary frost of heaven” (Job 38:29). Frost is in the cirrus clouds of the atmosphere, but also further into outer space. Let's remember, God can do anything he wants to. The farther the rocket goes into the `frost' the thicker and slicker it gets, thereby also decreasing the speed of the rocket. According to the calculator, the rocket has traveled, perhaps 100,000 miles in 10 days; when the truth is that it has traveled perhaps only 2-300 miles. The same is true also of radio signals even though radio signals travel much faster than rockets. Their speed also decreases the farther out in space they travel. God has set up the heavens to react differently to terrestrial objects, rockets and radio signals, than to celestial objects. The hoary frost does not affect the movement of celestial objects; the sun, moon stars and planets

:lol: You what? So now we're expected to believe that the Voyager 1 rocket is getting slower because it's slowly getting covered in frost. Now maybe there's a gap in my knowledge somewhere, but in which universe does increasing weight affect the speed of something when there's no gravity? Cetainly not this universe. Voyager 1 can gain all the weight it likes but unless it's physically hit by something or succums to the gravitational pull of something, it's going to continue at the same speed it's been doing for years.

Their theories are seriously flawed, and when they attempt to use science there are fundamental problems with that too. Gah.
 
Just wondering, isn't it possible that both theories could be right. I personally don't believe in god, but I am open minded. Anyways isn't it possible that he made Earth, put a couple bacteria on it and just figured he would see where it goes.
 
Just wondering, isn't it possible that both theories could be right. I personally don't believe in god, but I am open minded. Anyways isn't it possible that he made Earth, put a couple bacteria on it and just figured he would see where it goes.

I think that's more or less the jist of intelligent design.
 
Just wondering, isn't it possible that both theories could be right. I personally don't believe in god, but I am open minded. Anyways isn't it possible that he made Earth, put a couple bacteria on it and just figured he would see where it goes.
It’s also possible that a tiny green unicorn flew to Earth from a planet circling Alpha Centari, spit on the ground, and in its saliva were prokaryotic bacteria and neucleotides. That theory happens to have the exact same amount of scientific proof as Intelligent Design, yet I don’t see anybody saying that we should teach the Tiny Green Unicorn theory.
 
Just wondering, isn't it possible that both theories could be right. I personally don't believe in god, but I am open minded. Anyways isn't it possible that he made Earth, put a couple bacteria on it and just figured he would see where it goes.

In addition to what Joey and Sage have already said, my main issue with that site, highlighted in what I posted, is the dubious use of science to try and prove religious theory. Things like trying to prove that Voyager 1 is slowing down due to accumulated "frost" is just plain tosh, as it's trying to take a scientific theory that applies on Earth (such as icing on aircraft) into an outer-space environment, where it doesn't apply.

Or by pretty much guessing how far away the starts are based on what God has said, rather than actually observing them scientifically. I like to think I'm pretty open minded too, but I also like to think that unsubstantiated rubbish like that website isn't part of my repetoir.
 
Hey at least they know (believe?) the Earth is round. . . . :sly:

I saw that about the frost, too, but my favorite is still the one I quoted, tents don't stretch. Awesome!
 
The farther the rocket goes into the `frost' the thicker and slicker it gets, thereby also decreasing the speed of the rocket. According to the calculator, the rocket has traveled, perhaps 100,000 miles in 10 days; when the truth is that it has traveled perhaps only 2-300 miles

It's why they keep an ice scraper in the glove box.
 
Back