Creation vs. Evolution

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Hermaphroditism is a viable survival mechanism. When a population becomes borderline unviable, it helps ensure genetic diversity if some members of the population can switch sexes and mix genes more.

Well... it's viable for fish and amphibians, anyway... I'm not aware of any actual viable human hermaphrodites (there are those with both sets, but since this is a genetic disorder, usually only one set works... if at all... the more pronounced the hermaphroditism, the less likely either sets of gonads will work), though since my grandfather was an OB-GYN, I saw a lot of creepy slides on the subject while fixing his slideshows in high school.

I think those two week of work (computerized... pre-Powerpoint! Oh the clunky, user-unfriendly, slow-loading goodness!) left me scarred for life. :lol:

And... that's my last disturbing post for the day.
 
You've also got to remember that not everyone is going to reproduce. If we did our population would be unsustainable. It already is, because our medical advancements have helped births, extended lives, and gotten rid of many diseases which should have spread like wild fire.

Some people get hit by trains, some people get eaten by bears, some people get shot. And some are hermaphrodites. No offense to anyone personally, but it's probably one of those things that factors into "population control". Not that that's the reason for it. The reason is just a random genetic mutation. So more like a side effect of it.
 
You've also got to remember that not everyone is going to reproduce. If we did our population would be unsustainable. It already is, because our medical advancements have helped births, extended lives, and gotten rid of many diseases which should have spread like wild fire.

Some people get hit by trains, some people get eaten by bears, some people get shot. And some are hermaphrodites. No offense to anyone personally, but it's probably one of those things that factors into "population control". Not that that's the reason for it. The reason is just a random genetic mutation. So more like a side effect of it.

I agree, the more people we allow to live on this planet, the more deaths we will have. I just read something that Obama said, he said that in order to keep up with population growth, naturally we have to create 150,000 a month nation wide. That just blew me away and it scares me.
 
You've also got to remember that not everyone is going to reproduce. If we did our population would be unsustainable. It already is, because our medical advancements have helped births, extended lives, and gotten rid of many diseases which should have spread like wild fire.

Except for the following:

a) our population is sustainable
b) developed countries (like the ones that have the medical advancements you're talking about) tend to have very slow population growth. Some are actually shrinking. Rapid population growth seems to happen in countries where medical advancements are few.
c) if everyone did reproduce and had exactly two kids, guess what would happen to the population.
 
I agree, the more people we allow to live on this planet, the more deaths we will have. I just read something that Obama said, he said that in order to keep up with population growth, naturally we have to create 150,000 a month nation wide. That just blew me away and it scares me.

You do realize that everyone who is born will eventually die, right? So if more people are born, more people will die.
 
b) developed countries (like the ones that have the medical advancements you're talking about) tend to have very slow population growth. Some are actually shrinking. Rapid population growth seems to happen in countries where medical advancements are few.

I think it's less to do with medical advancements and more quality of living / employment. The more work you have to do, the less time you spend screwing around. People in developed countries are just too damn busy to have babies. :lol:
 
I think it's less to do with medical advancements and more quality of living / employment. The more work you have to do, the less time you spend screwing around. People in developed countries are just too damn busy to have babies. :lol:

And more ways to entertain themselves...
 
And more ways to entertain themselves...

Wait, sex isn't entertaining enough? How jaded can you get? :lol:

Maybe an air-drop of X-Boxes will cure the overpopulation issue in some areas of Africa?

That's if they can find someplace to plug them in.
 
Richard Dawkins: The Greatest Show On Earth (The Evidence For Evolution)

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Returning to more familiar and considerably more comfortable territory, Dawkins' new book is both a clear and simple explanation of the evidence for evolution, and a comprehensive, full-frontal assault on the logical fallacies, misrepresentations and glaring errors of creationism. Dawkins has rarely been so explicit in his criticism of Creationists in his books on evolution before, preferring to ignore them in favour of simply presenting the compelling evidence for evolution. However, in this book, he is at times scathing in his criticism of the opponents of science. Not content with merely rebuking his opponents, he goes into exhaustive detail to explain why they are wrong. Dawkins broadsides are tempered by the fact that what he has to say is fascinating, even to someone who has read some of Dawkins' books before. Dawkins also includes alot of new research, from Lenski's experimental evolution research, to bang up to date discoveries of new fossil evidence.

Dawkins also broaches subjects relevant to the broader philosophical debate about evolution, e.g the significance of the fossil record, how fossils are dated, and how other subjects give credence to evolution theory, such as plate tectonics, geology and even atomic theory. As usual, Dawkins explains things in such a way as to leave you thinking "why didn't I realise that before?". An example is his comment on "gaps" in the fossil record. Long a favourite topic of Creationists, Dawkins notes with some irony that, if it were not for these gaps in the fossil record, the whole business of species classification would be extremely difficult. The fossil record, invaluable and information rich as it is, creates the illusion of discontinuity between ancestors and present day species, and explains why it is fallacious to think of "the first human", when in reality there was no "first" human, or indeed no first of any species.

A key difference of this book and some of his previous work is the target audience: "History-deniers [Creationists] are among those who I am trying to reach with this book, but perhaps more importantly, I aspire to arm those who are not history-deniers, but know some - perhaps members of their own family or church - and find themselves inadequately prepared to argue the case (for evolution)."; and he begins the book with a hopeful appeal: "Evolution is a fact, beyond reasonable doubt, beyond serious doubt, beyond sane, informed, intelligent doubt. Beyond doubt, evolution is a fact." and "no unbiased listener will reach the end of the book doubting it".
 
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Have you read it, and if so, would you care to give us a review from your point of view?

I would like to read a book like this simply for comparison, but I'm grudged to part with my cash when I suspect it to be of a nefarious motive. Unfortunately, the description doesn't do that book any favours at all, by beginning with the line "Evolution has been dogma for so long, now many people consider it a foregone conclusion that life arose by random processes." Anyone who describes or even alludes to evolution as being a "random process" is completely wrong, and any book that leaves its readers with that impression is also wrong.
 
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Unfortunately, the description doesn't do that book any favours at all, by beginning with the line "Evolution has been dogma for so long, now many people consider it a foregone conclusion that life arose by random processes." Anyone who describes or even alludes to evolution as being a "random process" is completely wrong, and any book that leaves its readers with that impression is also wrong.

That sentence caught my eye when I read the info on the link too. I'm hoping the book was simply referring to the presumption by many (non-scientific) people that evolution is random, rather than that actually being the general consensus within the book...
 
Of course, personally, I'm trying to figure out what a "former evolutionist" is... considering there's no such philosophical movement as "evolutionism"... :lol:
 
That sentence caught my eye when I read the info on the link too. I'm hoping the book was simply referring to the presumption by many (non-scientific) people that evolution is random, rather than that actually being the general consensus within the book...

Alas no.

Thanks to Google Books, I've been able to read a bit of the book and the accompanying 'Teacher's Guide', and I'm not impressed at all (wow, what a surprise!). According to the 'Teacher's Guide', a purpose of Chapter 4 ("Natural Selection and Chance Mutation") is to:

"explain to the students that the modern theory of evolution proposes that complex animals, such as whales and bats, evolved from land mammals as a result of pure chance/blind/undirected/random/accidental mutations.".​

Note the mixture of accurate ("blind" and "undirected") with the inaccurate ("pure chance") and the ambiguous, depending on context ("random" and "accidental"). This textbook would have you believe that these terms are equivalent, but they most certainly are not. While it is fair to point out that randomness does play a role in evolution, both books fail to subsequently make it clear that natural selection is a non-random, undirected process by which random mutations which confer a survival advantage are preserved, and become part of the genome of a species. But if the 'Teacher's Guide' can fail to convey this most basic of concepts accurately, then what chance do you think new students to the subject will have of understanding the process correctly?

From what I've seen of it so far, Werner's book is obscenely biased and woefully inaccurate - consistently downplaying, ignoring or failing to properly represent the weight of evidence in favour of evolution theory, and consistently conveying evolution as ridiculous, improbable, or even impossible. Frankly, it is shocking that this kind of book can be considered suitable for high school education. Indeed, Google Books have it listed under "Religion", which should tell you everything you need to know about its scientific value (the Norman D Jones Science Award notwithstanding). Besides which, any "science" textbook that contains a quote from Duane Gish in a supporting context is a total non-starter. Learning your science from Duane Gish is like learning your history from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad... an exceptionally poor idea.
 
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With any luck, no-one.

Given that there is a Teacher's Guide, with exercises and questions for Students, the book is clearly intended for a high school or early university audience. However, in my opinion anyway, it is clearly designed to misrepresent the facts about evolution, foment doubt and perpetuate some incredibly basic misunderstandings.

For example, in the section entitled "What Should The Fossil Record Show If Evolution Is True?", we are given a 'hypothetical' example of what we "should" see in the fossil record, but it's a very poor example because it is an example of something that we shouldn't see. Taking two "dissimilar animals" (bats and mice), Werner states that, if evolution is true, we should find 'intermediate forms' between the two animals in the fossil record. This is completely false. Being sympathetic, his example is poorly chosen and uninformative. Being critical, his example is downright misleading and designed to support his erroneous view that evolution is false.

It deeply saddens me to see stuff like this, presented as it is to appeal to a "general audience", especially new students who are looking forward to learning new things, or perhaps thinking about a career in medicine or scientific research etc. Having had first-hand experience of teaching undergraduate students, it disgusts me to know that there are people in the education business who are prepared to peddle such distorted garbage. Not content with ruining the education of millions of people, these charlatans have the audacity to claim that they are doing it for 'good' reasons, championing such lofty ideals as "critical thinking" and "academic freedom". It makes me sick. Thank goodness for people like Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, Steve Jones, Eugenie Scott, Daniel Dennett and many more of their calibre who have the balls, the intelligence, the patience and the determination to challenge them, and not let them get away with their intellectual fraud.
 
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Just to let you know, I bought it as an audiobook on iTunes, and have already listened to the whole book. It is narrated by Dawkins himself, and his wife, Lalla Ward. I've missed a few bits as I was listening to it in my bed a couple of nights, but since I have it on my iPod, I can listen to it wherever (including while I'm at work :) ).

Indeed, if you search for Dawkins on iTunes (or indeed the subject of evolution generally), you will find a few free files that are also worth a listen, and there are also a few other of his books (and related books) available as audiobooks.
 
I do like audiobooks more than books (I'm lazy :D) but iTunes only sells iPhone apps over here, .mp3s and other stuff are blocked. Same for Amazon .mp3s. I saw this one on Audible.com, not sure if it sells to Brazil though, and I don't have U$ 20 to spend on it right now anyway.
 
With any luck, no-one.

Given that there is a Teacher's Guide, with exercises and questions for Students, the book is clearly intended for a high school or early university audience. However, in my opinion anyway, it is clearly designed to misrepresent the facts about evolution, foment doubt and perpetuate some incredibly basic misunderstandings.

The same can be said of the books on origin that you tout as being so authoritative.

Furthermore, there are no facts about evolution. Its pure opininated, conjectural theory.

As you say "In your opinion". Is your opinion so weakly based that it cannot withstand a legitimate challenge to it?

BTW what does luck have to do with it.

For example, in the section entitled "What Should The Fossil Record Show If Evolution Is True?", we are given a 'hypothetical' example of what we "should" see in the fossil record, but it's a very poor example because it is an example of something that we shouldn't see. Taking two "dissimilar animals" (bats and mice), Werner states that, if evolution is true, we should find 'intermediate forms' between the two animals in the fossil record. This is completely false. Being sympathetic, his example is poorly chosen and uninformative. Being critical, his example is downright misleading and designed to support his erroneous view that evolution is false.

Amazing.

Since the fossil record is a logical place to find evidence of the transitional "claimed evolving", why is that not a legitimate question?
His example might be a poor, again subject to opinion, but the overriding principle, still asks a logical question which the answer if anything goes against evolution.

His view, to the contrary, may not be any more "erroneous than yours".
Particularly since there is no definitive, bonifide proof that anything has ever evolved.
Again to the contrary, there is proof that: "everything reproduces after its own kind", 'Always has, and always will". It is not alterable even with intervention, much less without it.


It deeply saddens me to see stuff like this, presented as it is to appeal to a "general audience", especially new students who are looking forward to learning new things, or perhaps thinking about a career in medicine or scientific research etc. Having had first-hand experience of teaching undergraduate students, it disgusts me to know that there are people in the education business who are prepared to peddle such distorted garbage. Not content with ruining the education of millions of people, these charlatans have the audacity to claim that they are doing it for 'good' reasons, championing such lofty ideals as "critical thinking" and "academic freedom". It makes me sick. Thank goodness for people like Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, Steve Jones, Eugenie Scott, Daniel Dennett and many more of their calibre who have the balls, the intelligence, the patience and the determination to challenge them, and not let them get away with their intellectual fraud.

It deeply saddens me to see people who are so blindly ensconced in a theoritical fantasy that has no basis in fact, that they are void of any objectivity to the contrary, deluded to the point of acceptance that it is factual.
History has shown repeatedly it is unwise to proceed in that fashion.

It is no more intellectual fraud than the representation of a totally unprovable theory as fact.
 
Amazing.

Since the fossil record is a logical place to find evidence of the transitional "claimed evolving", why is that not a legitimate question?
His example might be a poor, again subject to opinion, but the overriding principle, still asks a logical question which the answer if anything goes against evolution.
Bats did not evolve from mice, nor did mice evolve from bats. Thus there would be no intermediate species. How does such a lack disprove evolution?

there is proof that: "everything reproduces after its own kind", 'Always has, and always will". It is not alterable even with intervention, much less without it.
You've never seen a kid born with no hands, or one arm missing, or eyes not present? Yes, these are defects, as is any mutation. Once in a while, however, and we're talking a GREAT while, some mutation creates an advantage rather than a disadvantage, and gets passed on. That deformed paw with the first large digit facing the others, for example.



It deeply saddens me to see people who are so blindly ensconced in a theoritical fantasy that has no basis in fact, that they are void of any objectivity to the contrary, deluded to the point of acceptance that it is factual.

Look up irony in the dictionary, this quote will be there.
 
there are no facts about evolution. Its pure opininated, conjectural theory.
Rubbish. On the contrary, there is a veritable mountain of facts that support the theory of common descent. It is neither a matter of opinion nor conjecture that humans and chimpanzees are genetically related, and very closely at that - it is a plain fact. It is also a plain fact that the human genome shares a high degree of sequence homology with all other mammals, and (to differing extents) all other lifeforms. Given that the "coincidence" concept is refuted by creationists and evolutionists alike, there remains only two possible explanations for the degree of homology between the human genome and those of other species - common descent and special creation. The fact is that the evidence (fossil, anatomical and genetic) supports the common descent hypothesis completely. Whether it also supports the special creation hypothesis too is a moot point, not least because there is no way to falsify the special creation hypothesis. Conversely, the common descent hypothesis is easily falsifiable - so easy infact that it would only take one individual of one single species to do it, and yet, guess what, we're still waiting. Indeed, evolutionary biology and comparative genomics reveals the fundamental and irrefutable fact that all lifeforms yet discovered share common characteristics - cells, genomes, gene sequences, proteins etc. This is in total agreement with the common descent hypothesis. The factual evidence available in the form of the fossil record, comparative anatomy, and now also comparative genomics, has confirmed the common descent hypothesis at every turn. It is merely your opinion that this amounts to "pure opininated, conjectural theory", so pardon me for disagreeing.

As you say "In your opinion". Is your opinion so weakly based that it cannot withstand a legitimate challenge to it?

-

Since the fossil record is a logical place to find evidence of the transitional "claimed evolving", why is that not a legitimate question?
His example might be a poor, again subject to opinion, but the overriding principle, still asks a logical question which the answer if anything goes against evolution.

While it is perfectly legitimate to ask the question, it is not legitimate to then answer your own question with stuff you just pull out of thin air, and pretend that it is a legitimate answer when it is infact not. It is a plain fact that the book you mention is misleading - it is my opinion that this is being done on purpose.

there is no definitive, bonifide proof that anything has ever evolved.

There is definitive proof of common descent - it is written in the genome of every living creature. The genetic similarities observed across the living world prove beyond doubt that the mechanism of common descent is a valid one. On the contrary, there is not a single living creature whose genome is not consistent with the theory of common descent. As I said before, it would only take one individual of one species to do so, and yet....

There is also ample proof that two genetically distinct populations of animal can arise from the same common ancestral population - not only is the evidence all around us, this has actually been tested and observed in a single human lifetime. Furthermore, it has been shown - beyond doubt - that new characteristics and abilities can arise in a descendant population from an ancestral population that did not have them before. This has been observed many, many times.

As for 'natural selection', once again this is a case of a hypothesis that has yet to be disproven. The biological machinery that every living thing is endowed with specifically allows it to happen - but yet, that needn't be the case. You have to ask, if all living things were 'specially created', why have they been created in such a way as to make them look like they evolved?? Why are they endowed with the ability to create new individuals that are genetically distinct from their direct ancestors i.e. through sexual reproduction, like we are, and not simply asexually reproduced clones of each other (which, of course, also happens in nature)? This ability to create new mixtures of genes i.e. to create new genomes, coupled with the proven ability of DNA sequences to mutate (this has been proven beyond all doubt, and yes it can be done artificially too), may not "prove" that natural selection occurs - but it does prove that natural selection can occur. Again, why would a creator design a system with the ability to do this, but intend for it not to happen??

SCJ
to the contrary, there is proof that: "everything reproduces after its own kind", 'Always has, and always will". It is not alterable even with intervention, much less without it.

As I mention above, "not alterable even with intervention" is simply not true - indeed, "descent with modification" is a natural fact, and can be observed in the genes of every newborn baby. Given that evolution - or "descent with modification" - occurs over many, many generations, it is perhaps easy to understand how the illusion of the immutability of species comes about. But it is a bit like saying that a city has been exactly the way it is now since time began, simply because you have never seen it any differently - and you are not able (because of the absence of time machines) to go back in time and see how different the city was long ago. Simply put, we haven't been watching for anywhere near long enough to be able to claim that we have witnessed macroevolution (or speciation) first-hand in most cases, but that does not mean to say that it cannot be (or indeed, has not been) observed in principle, nor does it detract from the vast amount of evidence all around us that allows us to infer, beyond all reasonable doubt, that we do indeed have a long and complex ancestry that betrays the myth that humans have 'always been' the way we are today.

It deeply saddens me to see people who are so blindly ensconced in a theoritical fantasy that has no basis in fact, that they are void of any objectivity to the contrary, deluded to the point of acceptance that it is factual.
History has shown repeatedly it is unwise to proceed in that fashion.

It is no more intellectual fraud than the representation of a totally unprovable theory as fact.
If you chose to look at the facts - the real facts, and not the distorted garbage that you present as facts - then you would know that evolution theory is very far from "theoretical fantasy", but the plain and simple, elegant and beautiful truth.
 
*big wall of text not necessary on quote*

If you chose to look at the facts - the real facts, and not the distorted garbage that you present as facts - then you would know that evolution theory is very far from "theoretical fantasy", but the plain and simple, elegant and beautiful truth.


That's what you get when you let TM get angry...you get OWNED. Sorry, but I don't know how to say it nicer.
 
If you chose to look at the facts - the real facts, and not the distorted garbage that you present as facts - then you would know that evolution theory is very far from "theoretical fantasy", but the plain and simple, elegant and beautiful truth.

Its days like this that I miss the rep system (rest its much abused soul), but I think I may have found my nomination for post of the year when the awards come around at the end of the year.

Excellent stuff TM, a well written and to the point post.


Scaff
 
Thanks :)

There is plenty more where that came from, too - if it wasn't for the fact that the Man U game started at 7.45, I could have been here all night :lol: That said, Duke has managed to brilliantly sum up the whole issue in a single sentence...
 
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