Creation vs. Evolution

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*sigh* No it isn't.

I'm sure we have done this before, but please explain how it is not and while your at it, why everything else is not as well.

Main Entry: belief system
Part of Speech: n
Definition: faith based on a series of beliefs but not formalized into a religion; also, a fixed coherent set of beliefs prevalent in a community or society



Edit: Evolution is the theory, based upon scientific claims, as explanation for origins and developement of all life forms.
 
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Evolution is not based on faith but rather observations and data.

First, its someone's interpretation and speculation of observations and data.

Second, upon the percieved credibility of this does one engage "belief' in it, as with any other entity.

Hence its a "belief" system, just as any other.

It may be credible, and on the other hand it may not be.
 
I'm sure we have done this before, but please explain how it is not and while your at it, why everything else is not as well.

Main Entry: belief system
Part of Speech: n
Definition: faith based on a series of beliefs but not formalized into a religion; also, a fixed coherent set of beliefs prevalent in a community or society



Edit: Evolution is the theory, based upon scientific claims, as explanation for origins and developement of all life forms.

A Theory is not a "belief system".

A Theory is a statement that describes the means by which natural or observed phenomenon occur.

The Theory of Gravity is not a belief. It is a theory that describes that "everything that comes up falls down." And it describes in mathematical detail the manner in which said object comes back down.

Likewise, the Theory of Evolution is a theory that states that organisms change over time. This is something that has been shown true by evidence gathered and is something that has been and can be replicated in a laboratory setting with breeding populations of various short-lived organisms.

EDIT: Credible evidence? I think the fact that we have an estimated 200,000,000 fossils sitting in museum collections around the world (this doesn't include fossilized insects preserved in amber or fossil imprints of shellfish and other small animals sitting in various private collections and homes) says that we probably have enough evidence to say something about the history of life on Earth, don't you think?

There is no "faith" in science. There is simply observation, theory, experimentation and conclusion. If a statement doesn't match observations and the results of experiments, then it's not a theory, it's merely a hypothesis.

"Faith" requires belief without proof... And belief without proof is not science.

-

C'mon.... we're way over the 6th millenium mark in this thread, and that's the best you can come up with? The "science is a religion" attack against Evolution was killed over a hundred pages ago!
 
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Its a big deal now for the folks who are upset about the seperation of church and state , to now try to introduce creation into schools by saying that a " benevolent force ' created the universe . What do you think about creation ? Is it a valid enough premise to be taught in school ?

Here's the question that started all this off. So it is about the creation of the universe, the original creation of life.

Without reading all the 311 preceding pages, I'm going to assume the argument is now devolved to one of creation versus evolution of the universe and all its life, without regard to "benevolence" of any kind. Is this right?

There is no "faith" in science. There is simply observation, theory, experimentation and conclusion. If a statement doesn't match observations and the results of experiments, then it's not a theory, it's merely a hypothesis.

"Faith" requires belief without proof... And belief without proof is not science.

Since the creation the universe cannot be duplicated in the lab, actual proof will always be lacking. So this argument can never be resolved entirely in the favor of evolution. On the other hand, science has been able to create artificial life in the lab, and possibly create new dimensions, or micro-universes, however briefly, as in the CERN experiments, etc. So if is possible for us rock apes to artificially create new life forms and open new dimensions, it may be possible that the story behind us is one of evolution plus a little something extra along the way. But in neither case do I think it is entirely benevolent.
 
A Theory is not a "belief system".

Again it most assuredly is by those who believe it to be true. It was just explained, "why" it is.

However, as with evolution, if you choose not to believe it, thats up to you.

A Theory is a statement that describes the means by which natural or observed phenomenon occur.

I'll quote it for you again.

First, its someone's interpretation and speculation of observations and data.

Second, upon the percieved credibility of this does one engage "belief' in it, as with any other entity.

The Theory of Gravity is not a belief. It is a theory that describes that "everything that comes up falls down." And it describes in mathematical detail the manner in which said object comes back down.

You are confusing a "theory" about an exsisting, observable and readily demonstrative force or phenomenon with another(evolution) that is anything but.

First you must find a "theory" that is correlatable, demonstratively if you intend to compare.

"Evolution" is not "exsisting, observable or readily demonstrable". They are not even in the same hemisphere.

Demonstratively, even with intervention much less without, every species reproduces after its own kind. Always has, and "odds on" always will.

In reality, "evolution" is actually a "theory" to attempt to explain another "theory". Niether of which exsist or are demonstrable.

Likewise, the Theory of Evolution is a theory that states that organisms change over time. This is something that has been shown true by evidence gathered and is something that has been and can be replicated in a laboratory setting with breeding populations of various short-lived organisms.

Changes might occur, with or without intervention, however evolution claims it occurred naturally without intervention so you have already left proof of the concept with any intervention.

Furthermore changes within a species do not remotely indicate, much less prove evolutional transition from one species to another. One must employ a Chasmic leap in interpretative judgement to declare such as exsisting, demonstrable, or observable.

Give me a call when you can do that.

There is no "faith" in science. There is simply observation, theory, experimentation and conclusion. If a statement doesn't match observations and the results of experiments, then it's not a theory, it's merely a hypothesis.

"Faith" requires belief without proof... And belief without proof is not science!

It appears you have oxymoroned here.
Since as demonstrated, a theory about a theory or even hypothesis are not proof, unless again individually believed to be, my question is on what do you base your belief in such as "matter of fact".

C'mon.... we're way over the millenium mark in this thread, and that's the best you can come up with? The "science is a religion" attack against Evolution was killed over a hundred pages ago!

In conclusion I can only assume you haven't read much of it since these facts have been pointed out several times.

I guess I have to ask you the same question.

BTW I never said "science is a religion". I said evolution is a "belief system".
Athough, now that you mention it, I think in some respects it is.
Additionally, your comments help reinforce that.
 
"Evolution" is not "exsisting, observable or readily demonstrable". They are not even in the same hemisphere.

Bacteria gaining resistance to medicine?

Not limiting your outlook to the smallest time scales of the universe (human lifespan)?
 
Bacteria gaining resistance to medicine?

Not limiting your outlook to the smallest time scales of the universe (human lifespan)?

Obviously we live in a dynamic enviroment.

However taking that to the totally unsubstantiated extreme to declare in fact, that all life was a result of evolutional theory is yes "not even in the same hemisphere".

Thats not limiting your outlook to a lifetime, but to the span of life as far back as reasonably determinable.
 
Obviously we live in a dynamic enviroment.

However taking that to the totally unsubstantiated extreme to declare in fact, that all life was a result of evolutional theory is yes "not even in the same hemisphere".

Thats not limiting your outlook to a lifetime, but to the span of life as far back as reasonably determinable.
Have you heard of natural selection? Survival of the fittest?


People seem to think that evolution means there are animals out there morphing into other creatures as we speak.
 
"Evolution" is not "exsisting, observable or readily demonstrable".

Yes, it is.

Microevolution has been observed in several instances as it's observable over a couple of generations rather than thousands of years. If I were to pick a really basic one out of the air, how about the subject of viruses that become immune to antidotes? Some strains of a virus might be killed when attacked with an antivirus, but others will survive and when they duplicate, all subsequent strains will be immune to the same antivirus. Fair enough, that's referring to asexual reproduction but the same concept applies to mammals, fish, insects, plants and all other creatures.

To pick another for you - how about that of domesticated cats, who have been observed over only a couple of generations to become completely feral and self-sufficient when forced to live in the wild? Their instinctive nature as hunters that developed hundreds of thousands of years ago and is still observable in the wild completely replaces their good natures which have been developed by thousands of years of domestication. Again, this quick evolutionary revertion is observable - and if it weren't possible, a domesticated cat left in the wild would likely struggle to survive if it weren't presented with options like foraging in urban areas.

Hell, how about fossilised human remains, which show human beings to be much shorter than they are now? How is that not observable evidence?
 
Yes, it is.

Microevolution has been observed in several instances as it's observable over a couple of generations rather than thousands of years. If I were to pick a really basic one out of the air, how about the subject of viruses that become immune to antidotes? Some strains of a virus might be killed when attacked with an antivirus, but others will survive and when they duplicate, all subsequent strains will be immune to the same antivirus. Fair enough, that's referring to asexual reproduction but the same concept applies to mammals, fish, insects, plants and all other creatures.

To pick another for you - how about that of domesticated cats, who have been observed over only a couple of generations to become completely feral and self-sufficient when forced to live in the wild? Their instinctive nature as hunters that developed hundreds of thousands of years ago and is still observable in the wild completely replaces their good natures which have been developed by thousands of years of domestication. Again, this quick evolutionary revertion is observable - and if it weren't possible, a domesticated cat left in the wild would likely struggle to survive if it weren't presented with options like foraging in urban areas.

Hell, how about fossilised human remains, which show human beings to be much shorter than they are now? How is that not observable evidence?

As mentioned, thats all changes, but they don't come close to substantiating the theory of evolution.

Cats have been that way for as far back as reasonably determinable.

At the very least there should be a gross proliferation of transitional species everywhere, observable to all. But as said, it doesn't exsist.
 
As the story goes, why wouldn't they be?

Because real life ain't Pokémon. What happens, AFAIK, is this:

*group of animals (for example, frogs) lives in place A*
*frogs reproduce*
*cold wave/heat wave/tornado/etc. suddenly hits place A*
*frogs with the best ability to adapt to environment (as result of a slight genetic mutation) survive, the others die*
*survivor frogs reproduce*
*kids of survivor frogs have the slight genetic mutation*
*kids of survivor frogs reproduce*
*grandkids of survivor frogs have another slight genetic mutation*
*repeat process*

This happened all over the world, with a lot of species of animals involved, during HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of years. Of course, the grandkids of survivor frogs look exactly like the "original" frogs, but the great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchild may be slight different.


At the very least there should be a gross proliferation of transitional species everywhere, observable to all. But as said, it doesn't exsist.

Just because it isn't found doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are (or should be) fossils of transitional (and common ancestors) species, but there's a catch:

There are in places we can't reach, like VERY DEEP into the Earth's surface.

I think Famine can explain much better than me.
 
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That's your problem, not ours.

Here's the thing. There's lots of fossil - and genetic - evidence for everything we've said. Lots of it. I mean loooooooots.

We do not have a representative fossil of every animal that has ever lived - which seems to be your prerequisite for accepting any part of the evolutionary process to be true - because there's quite a lot of animals and an awful lot of the planet for them to inhabit. But we have enough representatives of a number of different species and intermediate species to observe trends. We don't throw out all of this evidence because there might be a gap here or there - the gaps don't prove that God did it - because all of the other evidence tells us what we'd expect to be there.

Take Mendeleev. When he came up with the Periodic Table, he didn't have a completely contiguous line of elements - there were gaps. Did he chuck it all away and say "God did it"? Nope. He left gaps and even predicted the properties of the elements that would fill those gaps (melting and boiling points, colour, density, atomic mass and so on). Over the following century, elements were discovered, in nature, that filled those gaps and, shock of shocks, they had very similar properties to those that Mendeleev posited a hundred years earlier.


There's also lots of the planet. Lots of it. I mean loooooooooots. The planet is huge, and archeaologists don't get to all of it. In fact there's quite a great deal of it they've got no chance of getting to - 70% of it is underwater. 65 million years ago, right around the time the dinosaurs bit the big one, the continents were in different places because not only is the surface big, it's not very stable. It moves, erupts, drives down into the mantle, becomes a mountain unexpectedly - it's quite a bizarre place.

You don't accept that - fine. Tell me where earthquakes, volcanoes and mountain ranges come from then.


This is what I mean.
 
Because this ain't Pokémon. What happens, AFAIK, is this:

*group of animals (for example, frogs) lives in place A*
*frogs reproduce*
*cold wave/heat wave/tornado/etc. suddenly hits place A*
*frogs with the best ability to adapt to environment (as result of a slight genetic mutation) survive, the others die*
*survivor frogs reproduce*
*kids of survivor frogs have the slight genetic mutation*
*kids of survivor frogs reproduce*
*grandkids of survivor frogs have another slight genetic mutation*
*repeat process*

This happened all over the world, with a lot of species of animals involved, during HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of years. Of course, the grandkids of survivor frogs look exactly like the "original" frogs, but the great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchild may be slight different.

Sorry in advance for the pun, but slightly different doesn't equate to transforming into a handsome prince.

If it does, tell me why this is not the case then:

"At the very least there should be a gross proliferation of transitional species everywhere, observable to all. But as said, it doesn't exsist".


EDIT: I'm not talking about fossils from however long ago. I mean in the here and now. Live living and breathing.
 
I'm sure we have done this before, but please explain how it is not and while your at it, why everything else is not as well.

This thread is 6,200 posts long because we keep having to do things again. Look. It. Up.

Main Entry: belief system
Part of Speech: n
Definition: faith based on a series of beliefs but not formalized into a religion; also, a fixed coherent set of beliefs prevalent in a community or society

Great. Nothing to do with science. Still

"At the very least there should be a gross proliferation of transitional species everywhere, observable to all. But as said, it doesn't exsist".

Every species that has ever existed, even today, is a transitional species. Can you see all the trees and plants and animals? Gross proliferation of transitional species, observable to all.
 
This thread is 6,200 posts long because we keep having to do things again. Look. It. Up.

Trying to take the easy out huh.

It can't be explained as anything else, because in fact thats what it is.

Great. Nothing to do with science. Still

Funny you should say that. By the definition that is exactly what it is.

Every species that has ever existed, even today, is a transitional species. Can you see all the trees and plants and animals? Gross proliferation of transitional species, observable to all.

To the contrary there are no transitional species to species of anything. Much less a proliferation. You know part one species, and parts of others.

They do not exsist.
 
I hesitate to jump into such a "mature" discussion, & this may have been discussed previously (I didn't check all 312 pages!) but what strikes me is a couple of rather obvious points:

1) Darwin did NOT start with a theory & then seek to prove it with empirical evidence. He started with empirical evidence collected during his voyages as a naturalist/geologist that eventually, over a long period of gestation, suggested the idea of transmutation of species. It took him another 20 years before he took the step of actually publishing On the Origins of Species.

2) Darwin's ideas, although of profound importance & influence on scientific thinking & intellectual life in general, did not find immediate & unquestioning acceptance from other scientist & the general public. The idea that every single scientist since Darwin simply accepted his "theory" as "gospel" & then set out methodically to prove it empirically is not correct. In fact, any scientist able to conclusively discredit evolution would achieve great fame from doing so, & therefore would have a powerful motivation to question evolutionary theory. In contrast, those trying to promote the biblical view of creation, start out with the premise that the biblical story IS "gospel" & then cast about for empirical evidence that might challenge evolution & support the biblical view. There is a fundamental imbalance in these two approaches.
 
Trying to take the easy out huh.

No, pointing out that the information you're demanding has already been presented. You want it, you go get it. Try the "search this thread" option and put in "belief".

It can't be explained as anything else, because in fact thats what it is.

[...]

Funny you should say that. By the definition that is exactly what it is.

And yet no part of the definition you quoted refers to science. Science is not a "set of beliefs". Belief doesn't enter into it. This has been covered at length in this thread.

To the contrary there are no transitional species to species of anything. Much less a proliferation. You know part one species, and parts of others.

Then it's your lack of understanding that is at fault. There are no animals which are parts of different species combined. There never have been and evolutionary theory does not predict, model, require or involve them in any way. In fact that's exactly what it doesn't involve - evolutionary theory considers every species that has ever lived including all those alive today as "transitional species" because all life is evolving from what came before it towards what will come after it.

There is no half-monkey, half-man transitional species. There was a common monkey/man ancestor, just as man is a common future species/future species ancestor.
 
And yet no part of the definition you quoted refers to science. Science is not a "set of beliefs". Belief doesn't enter into it. This has been covered at length in this thread.

Nice try, but nothing could be further from the truth. There is no magic excemption for "science". It is all based in belief.

The definition of belief system: faith based on a series of beliefs but not formalized into a religion; also, a fixed coherent set of beliefs prevalent in a community or society

You have heard the term, "Scientific Community" ?

That being the case, I'll quote it for you again.

Science concerning theory is: First, someone's interpretation and speculation of observations and data.

Second, upon the percieved credibility of this does one engage "belief" in it, as with any other entity.

Hence its a "belief system", just as any other.

Criteria for the belief may vary but is ultimately irrelevant.

Then it's your lack of understanding that is at fault. There are no animals which are parts of different species combined. There never have been and evolutionary theory does not predict, model, require or involve them in any way. In fact that's exactly what it doesn't involve - evolutionary theory considers every species that has ever lived including all those alive today as "transitional species" because all life is evolving from what came before it towards what will come after it.

According to my understanding, the original evolutional theory claimed just that. Later it was modified.
Be that as it may, then what does it declare as their origin?

There is no half-monkey, half-man transitional species. There was a common monkey/man ancestor, just as man is a common future species/future species ancestor.

So he started as a monkey and became a man?

Again where did the monkey/man come from?
 
Perfect Balance
People seem to think that evolution means there are animals out there morphing into other creatures as we speak.

SuperCobraJet
As the story goes, why wouldn't they be?

Oh my...

Seriously pal, do some research on evolution, so you actually get an understanding of this scientific phenomenom.

Platypus anyone?

Though I don't know why I'm bothering...

According to my understanding, the original evolutional theory claimed just that. Later it was modified.

Are you thinking of Lamarck's theory of evolution? It wasn't modified in the slightest. It never evolved (sic) in to anything.
 
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To the contrary there are no transitional species to species of anything.
Is this a hypothesis? Would you like to attempt to prove that claim?

Much less a proliferation. You know part one species, and parts of others.

They do not exist.


Evolution is not a combination of species. That's intra-species breeding, and quite often those animals are produced sterile and die off. Perhaps that is why you don't see hybrids proliferating everywhere?

Despite that caveat, I can see where you're going with this and I'll try to interpolate the meanings behind your grossly misguided perception of what we're saying.

Everything is a transitional species because there is no "final" species. Similarly, a hole in the Earth 10 feet deep is no more or less of a hole than one that is 2,000 feet deep: a hole is a hole. A species is a species because it exists, not because it has reached a qualifying stage of sorts in the annals of genetics or layman observations.

All species are transitionary species because there is a 99.999% chance that within a given number of reproductions, there will be such significant genetic variation that the species will have A) branched off into one that is unique, leaving the "parent" species to continue reproducing at will, perhaps due to localised environmental factors which have affected the outcome of the creatures. Or, B) the species branches off (genetically mutates or adapts* and retains advantageous qualities), and due to similarly different or changing environmental factors, the "parent" species dies off.

This brings into question "transition" species. Since the one that branched off has become a different species, what do you expect it to transition to? Regardless of its' direction, it's always going to be either its' own species (which it very much is) or one that is in transition (which is also highly likely, providing it doesn't become extinct or environmental factors don't conspire against it.); it will always be both.

*Adapt: Used here as a placeholder verb for an unintendedly beneficial change in the creatures' abilities at birth: they don't will themselves to adapt—evolution isn't a conscious effort on the part of birds or cats and dogs who want to become more competitive in their environments. Their biology changes from generation to generation based the stresses of living conditions.

So, providing your definition of "transition" species isn't the same as it was before (was this really that futile, or are you just looking to condescend to us?), do you see now the prolific amount of creatures "in transition"?

(If you would like a resource of species which have recently been shown to have "adapted" to their environments over the course of generations—not single lifetimes, since a creature that is already born can no longer "adapt"—I would be happy to provide you with one.)

You are confusing a "theory" about an exsisting, observable and readily demonstrative force or phenomenon with another (evolution) that is anything but.

Actually, you are confusing the layman's use and interpretation of the word theory with its' use within the fields of science. They are not interchangeable.

Just as Newton's theories of gravity were validated by observation (heavy ball falls at same speed of less heavy ball), so too are Einstein's theories on Relativity, which themselves are even an extension of the theory of Gravity.

A theory is not an idea—that is a hypothesis—it's a theory because it can't be said to perform exactly the same way ad infinitum, because we can't logically account for the infinite variations of conditions to affect it: hence it's left as a theory to accommodate for the off-chance that, if say A cat in heat with four heads howls loudly enough, then gravity is reversed, the theory can be re-worked to appreciate that caveat.

(Einstein's path to fame was similarly marred with caveats—it took him another 10 years to complete the second theory of General Relativity, as distinct from Special Relativity, both of which have been experimentally verified.) In short, it leaves room for the unforeseen.

To make it a law, despite nontillion-and-two real-life observations, would still be jumping the gun: In science, a theory only becomes theory once its' actually passed rigorous scrutiny—do you think it was easy for Relativity to come acceptance? It had to compete with the conveniently simple explanation that light floated through a mysterious substance called "ether" (which wasn't actually a substance at all), that none of us could see or feel.

Changes might occur, with or without intervention, however evolution claims it occurred naturally without intervention so you have already left proof of the concept with any intervention.

No, there is no necessity of it occurring naturally. New genetic material is new genetic material—a lab result or not, it's still evolution. You are conflating this with Darwin's Victorian proposal of Natural Selection—one which claims that a species better suited to its' environment will prevail over the inferior. (Thusly, their dominance results in the proliferation of those genes, and so it occurs that the better suited species flourishes.) These are closely linked, and though Natural Selection is more appropriately observed in situ, it also is not a requirement as defined to occur outside of a laboratory setting.

If, for instance, one creature being tested in a laboratory spawns offspring which are better suited to the environs present, and the previous generations are still struggling to survive long enough to reproduce, then it has still evolved, and prevailed in a form of Natural Selection (assuming the newer, more fit organism can survive to pass on its' "good" genes); setting (lab) has nothing and everything (struggle to pass on genes) to do with Evolution.

Since as demonstrated, a theory about a theory or even hypothesis are not proof, unless again individually believed to be, my question is on what do you base your belief in such as "matter of fact".
Since we're no longer operating under the previous definition of "theory", the one mostly commonly known as an "idea" (rather than the correct one that is a scientifically derived series of observations explaining an event), would you agree then that this argument is moot?

It does go without saying, however, that dogma will be found within all circles of appreciation, be it religion, videogames, scientific endeavors—animé, even. Unfortunately, where the very nature of that appreciation often rests on forming logically coherent arguments, the reputations thus can oft suffer. In the case of Creation Vs. Evolution, I can only implore our contributors to take a breath and consider the methods of argument they're going to use.

Additionally, your comments help reinforce that.

And hopefully I've helped dispel it.

Sureboss
Oh my...

Seriously pal, do some research on evolution, so you actually get an understanding of this scientific phenomenom.

Platypus anyone?

Though I don't know why I'm bothering..
.
Sureboss, he's clearly here because he hopes to A) shake our own assurances, or B) learn more about it. If in the case of A, he's failing terribly and needs to step up his game, as his arguments don't comprise of anything logically compelling. If in the case of B, you're not helping anybody by telling someone to go look it up themselves (even if many who are/were genuinely interested had), and are suffering from the same pitfalls of not making a compelling (or logically valid) argument.
 
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I always thought the fact that the Platypus is the only egg laying mammal is fairly important? As for the other bit, as Famine has said, all his questions have been answered earlier in the thread. (and by people more knowledgeable than I am)
 
I always thought the fact that the Platypus is the only egg laying mammal is fairly important? As for the other bit, as Famine has said, all his questions have been answered earlier in the thread. (and by people more knowledgeable than I am)

Then don't put yourself in a position when you're unwilling to commit to the subject at hand; if you'd like, you could explain to him how the platypus is relevant and maybe then you'd have yourself a case. (Go on, get started!)

On a sidenote, everyone take a moment to peruse over this list of logical fallacies and see what you are and aren't allowed to say to make a compelling and reasonable argument:

argumentum ad verecundiam - quoting someone smart does not make them—or you—right.

The Bible works fundamentally on this Logical Fallacy. And this one, too.


Majority belief does not = validity.



You can't use a person's past transgressions, affiliations, or mix-ups against them in an argument (even though American Conservatives love to do this to Liberals and vise versa).
Our very own example.

A causal relationship fallacy.

Another one. (Quite often seen with our man-made global warming arguments.)

Crazy don't make you wrong.

Yelling louder doesn't make you right.

Not being perfect doesn't make it wrong.


Do this, and you get this, therefore it's right! Wrong.

History does not make it right.

An issue of contention is not always negated just because misguided ancients also subscribed to it. (Probably the most common method of writing off arguments made for Jesus and his followers.)


...and this is one we should probably all recognize.
 
I always thought the fact that the Platypus is the only egg laying mammal is fairly important? As for the other bit, as Famine has said, all his questions have been answered earlier in the thread. (and by people more knowledgeable than I am)

Platypus isn't the only egg laying mammal, there is also the Echidna.
 
As mentioned, thats all changes, but they don't come close to substantiating the theory of evolution.

Cats have been that way for as far back as reasonably determinable.

At the very least there should be a gross proliferation of transitional species everywhere, observable to all. But as said, it doesn't exsist.

Of course
those examples come close to substantiating the theory of evolution.

They are all observable evolutionary processes.

Every example I mentioned shows organisms not just adapting to their life conditions, but doing so in such a way that they physically change in order to do so. The cats we have as pets are the result of several thousand years of domestication, and yet they can revert back to completely independant creatures in a matter of a few generations. The length of claws in feral cats grows in only a few generations in order that they can grab prey and climb better. Viruses and bacteria that survive a particular type of cure then reproduce to create descendants that are immune to these cures, and stronger examples of these may be immune to other cures, and when they reproduce... you see where this is going.

This requires no "belief". It's observable. Many, many scientists have done research that has proven that evolution takes place, on a micro level at the very least. On a macro level? There is substantial evidence to suggest so. This doesn't require belief no matter which way you try and convolute it - all evidence is observable and measurable and therefore no unsubstantiated belief is required.

Again where did the monkey/man come from?

I can't believe you're even trying to argue that point again. Every creature has evolved from something else. Primates evolved from other primates, evolved from other primates, evolved from other primates etc. The chain goes back thousands of millenia. The big, ignorant assumption of creationists is that there had to be a "first something" somewhere, failing to recognise that everything is a development of something else.

Has an eye always been an eye? No, of course not. In very early creatures it was likely just a simple light/dark receptor. The creatures who could more accurately make out light and dark survived over those that couldn't. Then the ones that could discern shapes outwit those that could only tell light from dark. Those that could see depth outwit those that could only sense shapes. Those that could focus outwit those that could only see depth.

Every single thing in our bodies will have had an evolutionary past. An organ doesn't necessarily have to be a whole organ in order to work.
 
Is this a hypothesis? Would you like to attempt to prove that claim?

There is no need to prove it since as already stated, it proves itself by virtue of being exsisting, demonstrable, and observable. Everything reproduces after its own kind and has repeatedly done so from the present to as far back in time as reasonably determinable. This indicates it will continue the same in the future.
That part could be considered a hypothesis and with substantial basis.
Since evolutional theory claims this is not the case, in spite of clear exsisting, demonstrable, and observable proof to the contrary, the burden of proof is on evolution, of which it cannot conclusively bare. Hence it remains a "theory" based solely in "interpretive speculation", scientific as it may claim to be.


Evolution is not a combination of species. That's intra-species breeding, and quite often those animals are produced sterile and die off. Perhaps that is why you don't see hybrids proliferating everywhere?

As quoted elsewhere in this thread, this is another indication evolution is not probable.

Despite that caveat, I can see where you're going with this and I'll try to interpolate the meanings behind your grossly misguided perception of what we're saying.

Misguided according to who, what, why, where. What proof there is rests with my misguidedness. But by all means, knock yourself out.

Everything is a transitional species because there is no "final" species. Similarly, a hole in the Earth 10 feet deep is no more or less of a hole than one that is 2,000 feet deep: a hole is a hole. A species is a species because it exists, not because it has reached a qualifying stage of sorts in the annals of genetics or layman observations.

All species are transitionary species because there is a 99.999% chance that within a given number of reproductions, there will be such significant genetic variation that the species will have A) branched off into one that is unique, leaving the "parent" species to continue reproducing at will, perhaps due to localised environmental factors which have affected the outcome of the creatures. Or, B) the species branches off (genetically mutates or adapts* and retains advantageous qualities), and due to similarly different or changing environmental factors, the "parent" species dies off.

This brings into question "transition" species. Since the one that branched off has become a different species, what do you expect it to transition to? Regardless of its' direction, it's always going to be either its' own species (which it very much is) or one that is in transition (which is also highly likely, providing it doesn't become extinct or environmental factors don't conspire against it.); it will always be both.

*Adapt: Used here as a placeholder verb for an unintendedly beneficial change in the creatures' abilities at birth: they don't will themselves to adapt—evolution isn't a conscious effort on the part of birds or cats and dogs who want to become more competitive in their environments. Their biology changes from generation to generation based the stresses of living conditions.

So, providing your definition of "transition" species isn't the same as it was before (was this really that futile, or are you just looking to condescend to us?), do you see now the prolific amount of creatures "in transition"?

(If you would like a resource of species which have recently been shown to have "adapted" to their environments over the course of generations—not single lifetimes, since a creature that is already born can no longer "adapt"—I would be happy to provide you with one.)


Actually, you are confusing the layman's use and interpretation of the word theory with its' use within the fields of science. They are not interchangeable.

Just as Newton's theories of gravity were validated by observation (heavy ball falls at same speed of less heavy ball), so too are Einstein's theories on Relativity, which themselves are even an extension of the theory of Gravity.

A theory is not an idea—that is a hypothesis—it's a theory because it can't be said to perform exactly the same way ad infinitum, because we can't logically account for the infinite variations of conditions to affect it: hence it's left as a theory to accommodate for the off-chance that, if say A cat in heat with four heads howls loudly enough, then gravity is reversed, the theory can be re-worked to appreciate that caveat.

(Einstein's path to fame was similarly marred with caveats—it took him another 10 years to complete the second theory of General Relativity, as distinct from Special Relativity, both of which have been experimentally verified.) In short, it leaves room for the unforeseen.

To make it a law, despite nontillion-and-two real-life observations, would still be jumping the gun: In science, a theory only becomes theory once its' actually passed rigorous scrutiny—do you think it was easy for Relativity to come acceptance? It had to compete with the conveniently simple explanation that light floated through a mysterious substance called "ether" (which wasn't actually a substance at all), that none of us could see or feel.


No, there is no necessity of it occurring naturally. New genetic material is new genetic material—a lab result or not, it's still evolution. You are conflating this with Darwin's Victorian proposal of Natural Selection—one which claims that a species better suited to its' environment will prevail over the inferior. (Thusly, their dominance results in the proliferation of those genes, and so it occurs that the better suited species flourishes.) These are closely linked, and though Natural Selection is more appropriately observed in situ, it also is not a requirement as defined to occur outside of a laboratory setting.

If, for instance, one creature being tested in a laboratory spawns offspring which are better suited to the environs present, and the previous generations are still struggling to survive long enough to reproduce, then it has still evolved, and prevailed in a form of Natural Selection (assuming the newer, more fit organism can survive to pass on its' "good" genes); setting (lab) has nothing and everything (struggle to pass on genes) to do with Evolution.

Since we're no longer operating under the previous definition of "theory", the one mostly commonly known as an "idea" (rather than the correct one that is a scientifically derived series of observations explaining an event), would you agree then that this argument is moot?

Everything with reguard to evolution you go to great lengths here to claim as "probable" or "factual" is niether. Its assumptive basis is again in "interpretive speculation", or opinionated belief. Again one must employ a Chasmic leap in interpretative judgement to declare such speculative possibilities as probable, much less predictably conclusive.


It does go without saying, however, that dogma will be found within all circles of appreciation, be it religion, videogames, scientific endeavors—animé, even. Unfortunately, where the very nature of that appreciation often rests on forming logically coherent arguments, the reputations thus can oft suffer. In the case of Creation Vs. Evolution, I can only implore our contributors to take a breath and consider the methods of argument they're going to use.

I think you should heed your own advice here.

Your assumptions as to what is probable or factual with regaurd to evolution are certainly not ones I choose to make.

And hopefully I've helped dispel it.

Not hardly.

Sureboss, he's clearly here because he hopes to A) shake our own assurances, or B) learn more about it.

While either statement may result, your assumption as to intent, like those on evolution fall woefully short of fact. I am merely pointing out why evolution is not, in my estimation, to be considered factual or even probable since it is based in assumptive speculation.

If in the case of A, he's failing terribly and needs to step up his game, as his arguments don't comprise of anything logically compelling. If in the case of B, you're not helping anybody by telling someone to go look it up themselves (even if many who are/were genuinely interested had), and are suffering from the same pitfalls of not making a compelling (or logically valid) argument.

After your explanation, I could claim the samething.
 
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