Creation vs. Evolution

[Pyle_PMG]

I never really believed in Creation. Now with the knowledge I gained, Evolution sounds more like fact. Not the fiction many people consider it to be. Thanks for simplifying it into a way I understand.

 

[GT5Junkie]

So are we lucky to have shed our penis spines?

Speak for yourself.

 

[Joel]

I'm by no means an expert on evolution, but I think a common problem is when people say "we evolved from monkeys" and then people get the wrong idea and think that's true. It's not that we evolved from monkeys, it's that humans and monkeys have a common ancestor. Both humans and monkeys are at an equal evolutionary stage, but to suggest modern humans came from modern monkeys is a lie.

 

[blaaah]

Speak for yourself.

I'm sorry I didn't realise your partner was widely used by other males and that they deposited ejaculatory gums into her vagina causing a plug with which to deter further male member entry. Thus the reason said to be why the spines were also required so as to knock through the vaginal plug.

Fair play to you.

 

[Pyle_PMG]

I have to say it...OH SNAP!

 

[Touring Mars]

Evolution doesn't say modern humans evolved from apes, it says we evolved from a common ancestor.

Or as Richard Dawkins said, "We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realize that we are apes."

I'm by no means an expert on evolution, but I think a common problem is when people say "we evolved from monkeys" and then people get the wrong idea and think that's true. It's not that we evolved from monkeys, it's that humans and monkeys have a common ancestor. Both humans and monkeys are at an equal evolutionary stage, but to suggest modern humans came from modern monkeys is a lie.

Often it's a lie - but sometimes it is simply a mistake. It's most often (mis)used by creationists to discredit evolution, because alot of people take great umbrage to being compared to a monkey or an ape, or to being described as an 'animal' (even though we are animals). The notion that our 'God-like' species is even like an animal is anathema (or even blasphemous) to many, so the fact that we are not merely like animals, but that we are animals, and we are infact distant familial relatives of all living things, is bordering on horrific for some. This is an unfortunate fact that creationists often exploit in order to gain support... "are you calling my family animals?!?" for example. The word 'animal' has unfortunate derogatory connotations in human society, which often trumps its literal meaning - just as 'ape' and 'neanderthal' are (unfairly) considered by some to equate to 'stupid'. While I firmly believe that human intelligence ought to be recognised for what it is, I don't believe that we are even close to a proper understanding of intelligence in other animals, even the most highly studied ones like bonobos and other higher primates. What is clear, even from the small amount of work that has been done, is that these 'animals' are far more intelligent than they have been credited for in the past. It's a great pity that some of these creatures face extinction before we've even had a chance to properly understand them - and hence, to properly understand ourselves.

 

[Sureboss]

👍👍👍

 

[Minty]

I can see why people consider evolution a part of the realm of belief systems.

Yeah, kind of like Gravitism.....oh, wait.

Because the Evolution theory, like Creation theory both have flaws. For one thing, part of the Evolution theory believes we evolved from apes. That is absurd, have you ever seen apes? Maybe people could have gotten their stupidity from them, but that is about it.

Also, there is nothing in any credible book or writing of any kind that says we evolved directly from apes, and saying so just proves how little you actually know about the subject.

 

[r2nyGT5]

Evolution has always made more sense to me. In fact, its so deep rooted into my brain I don't think I can see it any other way.
Evolution is also pretty beautiful once you understand it.

I have nothing against Creationists, If you find enlightenment that way and your happy, then believe in it.

 

[TheDrummingKING]

Soo.. I'm not searching through 334 pages to see if this is posted, but it explains my view of this.
[YOUTUBEHD]gCfemmxqaRg[/YOUTUBEHD]

I like this because it explain how I feel about religion without actually being offensive. It's quite nice.

One of the comments was : "It might not be entirely appropriate to say, and could perhaps be a little insulting, but watching these Sagan Series videos leaves me with the impression that Carl Sagan is like an? atheist version of Jesus Christ - a wise, humble, charismatic 'prophet' of science, who's very words inspire in many a spiritual, and almost religious awe for the world and humanity.

And as an atheist...I find that idea strangely appealing."

I agree with it.

Well that's all.

 

[sk0pe]

This is all that needs to be said on Creation.
Minor Language warning.



0 - 1min10sec is gold.

 

[Katahu]

Well, I'm gonna jump into the conversation regardless of me being new to the forums. After all, I have experience life as it is, read the bible, etc. to draw my own conclusion.

First, let me start off by saying that I use to be Catholic, but now I am Gnostic. This is to avoid being mislabeled by some as an Atheist (although there is nothing wrong with being atheist).

Second, Thomas Jefferson (our founding father of the US) stressed heavily the importance of separating church from state. After all, a free country won't feel free if our citizens are forced to adhere to a strict doctrine based on silly dogma and questionable scriptures. Besides, the founding fathers hated the British for many reasons including how the church of England use to be cracking down on its citizens for not practicing their "official" faith.

Third, are we talking about creationism vs. evolution in a private school or in a public school? If it's in a private school, then that particular school can do whatever the heck they want. In a public school, no one in such schools should be forced to read up on a belief that was created by one or two religions due to the fact that America is the cultural melting pot of the world. What if the student was an atheist or an Agnostic? What if the student is Gnostic, or perhaps a Scientologist or a Pagan worshiper?

 

[orimarc]

What's the difference between Gnostic and Agnostic?

PD: I'm totally using Gnostic as my "fake lame rapper" name. G-nostic is in da house!

 

[buggs1a]

Hi. I'm a Christian. I've made Jesus my lord and saviour. I love him and he loves me and everyone in fact. He created the universe. I don't know how in the details and no one knows. I don't know what evolution or creationism is to be honest. I just would like to share my opinion and myself in a loving friendly way in hopes no one will get on my case. I don't want anyone to mock me or put me down or anything bad. I'm being friendly here and not pushing on anyone.

You have to come to God by faith and only faith. Then God will show you things and make things clear to you. Jesus took all the sins of the world on himself and paid the price. He loves us so much he was born of the holy spirit and lived a perfect life. He is God as man. So Jesus took the sins of everyone. God placed all sin of past present and future and put them on his son Jesus as if Jesus sinned. Jesus was beaten, whipped and Hung on the cross for all of is. He did and 3 days later God raised him up. He had to do this because he knows we can't be perfect. So Jesus had to be perfect, die and be raised. Now all he wants from us is just believe. Just believe in him and confess we are a sinner and ask Jesus to come in our heart. That's all he wants. Then we who do that by faith are saved and will have eternal life with him. Then God shows us stuff. He will reveal himself to us. Why not before? Because we are separated from god because of our sin. God is perfect and put and he is love. He can't be around sin. So we must come to god in faith and then Jesus brings us to God.

I know god is hard to believe in without proof. There is proof though and you will surely know the truth once you make him your lord and savior by faith. Without faith we can't please god. God can be proven based on history books and even science can help us in some ways to understand how complex the universe really is.

God has always been there. He's god. He just is. How? What created god? God has just always been. We can't know because then he wouldn't be god if we could figure everything out. He's so big we can't even know. Everything has to have been created by something. Nothing can just appear from no where. Everything has been created by someone except the creator himself. God would not be god if we could prove everything.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I know god is hard to believe in without proof.

👍

 

[Keef]

How? What created god? God has just always been.

I'm not being disrespectful here, simply suggesting that you apply some everyday logic and common sense to your belief in God.

For example, read the following statement and consider whether or not it makes any sense to you:

How? What created peanut butter? Peanut butter has just always been.

or...

How? What created the Playstation 3? Playstation 3s have just always been.

You know for a fact that peanut butter and PS3s have not "just always been". The same is true of cars, my computer monitor, your computer monitor, jelly donuts, pillow cases, shoes, jeans, the recliner in my living room, and the water filter on my kitchen sink, among many other things.

For that matter, the tree in my front yard has not always been. About 25 years ago it didn't exist. The seed it grew from wasn't even there.

Because you know that nothing around you has "just always been", you might want to ask yourself why God is the only thing that actually has always been. If everything you know has a reason, ask yourself why God has none.

 

[Public'sTwin]

Hi. I'm a Christian. I've made Jesus my lord and saviour. I love him and he loves me and everyone in fact. He created the universe. I don't know how in the details and no one knows. I don't know what evolution or creationism is to be honest. I just would like to share my opinion and myself in a loving friendly way in hopes no one will get on my case. I don't want anyone to mock me or put me down or anything bad. I'm being friendly here and not pushing on anyone.

You have to come to God by faith and only faith. Then God will show you things and make things clear to you. Jesus took all the sins of the world on himself and paid the price. He loves us so much he was born of the holy spirit and lived a perfect life. He is God as man. So Jesus took the sins of everyone. God placed all sin of past present and future and put them on his son Jesus as if Jesus sinned. Jesus was beaten, whipped and Hung on the cross for all of is. He did and 3 days later God raised him up. He had to do this because he knows we can't be perfect. So Jesus had to be perfect, die and be raised. Now all he wants from us is just believe. Just believe in him and confess we are a sinner and ask Jesus to come in our heart. That's all he wants. Then we who do that by faith are saved and will have eternal life with him. Then God shows us stuff. He will reveal himself to us. Why not before? Because we are separated from god because of our sin. God is perfect and put and he is love. He can't be around sin. So we must come to god in faith and then Jesus brings us to God.

I know god is hard to believe in without proof. There is proof though and you will surely know the truth once you make him your lord and savior by faith. Without faith we can't please god. God can be proven based on history books and even science can help us in some ways to understand how complex the universe really is.

God has always been there. He's god. He just is. How? What created god? God has just always been. We can't know because then he wouldn't be god if we could figure everything out. He's so big we can't even know. Everything has to have been created by something. Nothing can just appear from no where. Everything has been created by someone except the creator himself. God would not be god if we could prove everything.

Don't be deceived—this is plain old evangelism. And, unfortunately for all of us, it is painfully off-topic and doesn't address the issue which you raise and casually dismiss; through a pessimistic lens, it may be viewed as spam. But we digress.

However, there's a flaw (to say the least) in what you relate and it revolves around Why we should listen to you.

The problem is, we don't know who you are, whether just a person, or a prophet or God himself. In any case, if we were to believe you, that God is and always has been &c., simply because you told us to. . . we would believe based on percieved authority: the authority of your word; your authority.

So why should we do that? You've not given a single grain of reason for us to do this. It wouldn't be "faith in God"—it would be faith in you, that your word is correct.

For us to have faith in God, God himself would be required to come [down?] here and declare himself the supreme authority of all that ever was and ever will be, and only then could we have faith in him (that he speaketh the truth).

So now the question becomes: how did you acquire "faith in God"? Did he reveal himself to you personally? Or, more likely, did you take someone else's word, someone else's. . . authority on the matter, and place your faith in that—that they were relating the truth to you? If so, that's misplaced faith.

We are not here debating in this thread because we have faith in Science. Science (as we know it) only rejected Creationism once the likelyhood of other factors became more and more evident, through a process of logical elimination. Evidence is otherwise known as something to be true—the admittance "into Science" (of a scientific-standard) is not based the word or hearsay of some authority, but rather on what can be substantiated as true, in the face of many who refute its legitimacy.

However, we have to admit that much of our belief—those of us not studying the subject of evolution directly—do hold our views on the basis of authority: the authority, though, that the majority of us have vested our views in has only become an authority through the review, critique, scrutiny, and finally, veneration of their study. And, respectfully, if your alternate theory (scientific, not layman) to Evolution doesn't hold to those same standards, it does not belong in this thread.

 

[terminator363]

What do you call those people who don't believe in god but are convinced if there is scientific proof of anything?

 

[Sam48]

For us to have faith in God, God himself would be required to come [down?] here and declare himself the supreme authority of all that ever was and ever will be, and only then could we have faith in him (that he speaketh the truth).

So now the question becomes: how did you acquire "faith in God"? Did he reveal himself to you personally? Or, more likely, did you take someone else's word, someone else's. . . authority on the matter, and place your faith in that—that they were relating the truth to you? If so, that's misplaced faith.

Well, that would not happen. Once God "came down and declared himself supreme authority", it would demean him because now it's as if there's no more belief/faith necessary. Here's a quote of mine from the "Do You Believe in God Thread"

Me
You guys actually stumbled upon an interesting topic. Because anyone can take a jar of peanut butter and claim it's a god by worshipping it. They will then tell you that this jar of peanut butter is physical proof that this peanut butter god exists (which, funny enough, is more evidence then any real religion has ever presented). However, even though the most predominant religions of the world have no "jar of peanut butter", most all their followers are very firm believers. For some reason, evidence lessens religion, because it gives you less to pre knowingly believe in. If a religion is somehow proven to be true, people would suddenly think, ok cool, yah, so what? Presenting evidence would kill the religion, and cause followers to stop caring.

We are not here debating in this thread because we have faith in Science. Science (as we know it) only rejected Creationism once the likelyhood of other factors became more and more evident, through a process of logical elimination. Evidence is otherwise known as something to be true—the admittance "into Science" (of a scientific-standard) is not based the word or hearsay of some authority, but rather on what can be substantiated as true, in the face of many who refute its legitimacy.

Remember, science does not prove anything. We'll just have to wait.

 

[Public'sTwin]

Well, that would not happen.

Irrelevant. My argument stands.

Once God "came down and declared himself supreme authority", it would demean him because now it's as if there's no more belief/faith necessary.

That's my point; however, you and I are thinking of different proofs as well as differences in what one is believing in. Believing God exists and believing God to be onmipotent are not the same. (Also, God allegedly spoke to Adam and Eve, as well as Noah, Moses, Abraham, and a multitude of others in "history"—so it would hardly be precedent if he were to do so today.)

Here's a quote of mine from the "Do You Believe in God Thread"

The argument in this quote is falsely based on the assumption that all religions require an abstraction around which the value and spiritual insight of the religion may be centred and derived from.

Remember, science does not prove anything. We'll just have to wait.

What does this even mean? Science—by being scientific—is proof; it's very hard not to get tautological about this, because what you've said is essentially the same as "cats cannot behave like cats".

 

[buggs1a]

God has come down to earth and has said who he is. This is Jesus.

Faith is given to you by God not by man. Every man a measure of faith is given.

I don't expect anyone to believe in my words.

As I said. If god could be fully understood he wouldn't be god.

I posted to share. Honestly I don't know much about the original thread topic, sorry. However I thought it had to do with god so I posted a bit of how to be saved and other tidbits.

I agree with a non delivers view and opinions on is god real. In some ways I mean. Because I would have the same questions of why and how etc. I agree. So I kinda know where non Christians are coming from. I have faith because God gave me faith.

Some won't because even if God came here in person today and lived like Jesus and did miracles etc some would still not believe. The pharisees in Jesus' time saw him and knew him yet still did not believe. Jesus says that he who does not see yet believe is blessed. Faith is hard.

I have some fear of the unknown and don't walk by faith a lot. I want to know. I am scared sometimes. But when I have done something in faith I came out ok and God always protects me and helps me.

Oyeah. Public twin. When you say for us to have faith then god would have to come and say he is. That's not faith. Faith is believing in something and hoping yet you do not see.


I'm sorry for being off topic. I don't mean to be on purpose. I just thought as I said above, evolution and creationism had something to do with god.

If I'm wrong please forgive me and please let's be friendly to each other.

 

[livemusic]

What do you call those people who don't believe in god but are convinced if there is scientific proof of anything?

Rational people?

 

[Keef]

What does this even mean? Science—by being scientific—is proof...

He argues because he misunderstands what "proof" is. Proof is evidence sufficient enough to establish something as being generally true. But something proven isn't always true. Because most people seem to misunderstand "proven" as meaning 100% factual - and my psychology teacher knows we're all idiots - I like to describe science as not proving anything, but establishing what is most likely to be true. Oxymoron, yes, but when somebody doesn't know what a word means, you have to use a different word.

 

[Joel]

This is how I look at the god debate. Say I were to tell you that I put a magic Shih Tzu in orbit around Jupiter. It's invisible, magic, and can't be seen by our strongest telescopes. So prove to me that it doesn't exist. Prove to me that I don't have a magic Shih Tzu in orbit around Jupiter, watching your every move, deciding if you're a good person or not.

You can't. Just like I can't prove that God doesn't exist. However, you don't really believe that I have a magic Shih Tzu, it doesn't make any sense. It's not logical, likely, or consistent with anything we've found out otherwise. Same thing here with God, I can't prove that there is no God, however, an invisible man living in the sky isn't consistent with what we know about the universe. There are logical, scientific explanations for things that used to be considered unsolvable problems. We used to say that rain was done by God, because we didn't know otherwise. Now, we know about the water cycle, condensation, etc etc.

You scientifically can't prove that something doesn't exist, so the onus is on the believers to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God does exist. It's an impossible task.

 

[Public'sTwin]

God has come down to earth and has said who he is. This is Jesus.

Faith is given to you by God not by man. Every man a measure of faith is given.

I don't expect anyone to believe in my words.

As I said. If god could be fully understood he wouldn't be god.

I posted to share. Honestly I don't know much about the original thread topic, sorry. However I thought it had to do with god so I posted a bit of how to be saved and other tidbits.

I agree with a non believer's view and opinions on "is god real". In some ways I mean. Because I would have the same questions of why and how etc. I agree. So I kinda know where non Christians are coming from. I have faith because God gave me faith.

Some won't because even if God came here in person today and lived like Jesus and did miracles etc some would still not believe. The pharisees in Jesus' time saw him and knew him yet still did not believe. Jesus says that he who does not see yet believe is blessed. Faith is hard.

I have some fear of the unknown and don't walk by faith a lot. I want to know. I am scared sometimes. But when I have done something in faith I came out ok and God always protects me and helps me.

Oyeah. Public twin. When you say for us to have faith then god would have to come and say he is. That's not faith. Faith is believing in something and hoping yet you do not see.


I'm sorry for being off topic. I don't mean to be on purpose. I just thought as I said above, evolution and creationism had something to do with god.

If I'm wrong please forgive me and please let's be friendly to each other.

buggs1a, you should not take censure as "unfriendly"—it is simply disagreement, and if something you say has a formal basis to be refuted on, chances are, it will.

However, your assertion that,

Faith is given to you by God not by man. Every man a measure of faith is given.

cannot be true unless God reveals himself to each person. The extension of communication through another human being places the faith in the message equally in the veracity person who communicated it; surely you must be aware of the difference between the Catholic Church and Protestantism?

Secondly, the notion that God may or may not be reduced in power by our comprehension of Him is largely irrelevant—Christian medieval philosophers even rejected this notion on some grounds—and is also rationally insubstantial.

Because I would have the same questions of why and how etc. I agree. So I kinda know where non Christians are coming from. I have faith because God gave me faith.

This is beside the point—it only addresses the empirical level of proof. God did not give you faith: the authority of the person (pastor, parent, community member &c.) communicating the concept of God to you explained that faith is a core and fundamental element of Christianity, for it were not, Christianity would never spread on the merit of its ethical values alone.

Empiricism aside, the problem with this is a logical one: you can't have faith in a system of belief, incorporating the authority of a single omnipotent being, when that system is in fact being communicated by a fallible human being. Your faith in that system is only secondarily a faith in the authority of God, but primarily—little noticeable though it is—a belief in the authority of the message communicated to you, by a person.

Oyeah. Public twin. When you say for us to have faith then god would have to come and say he is. That's not faith. Faith is believing in something and hoping yet you do not see.

Unfortunately, this is a very facile and wobbly concept of faith. Hope, by definition, is little able to realise its object of attention, and so the word "faith" is not readily explained by it. However, a very reduced and simplified conception of faith is more convenient to spreading Christianity's doctrine today, especially as it's under constant attack from certain institutions and is suffering a steady flight of followers.

Also, the priests and proprietors of its sects aren't especially known as the men of letters they used to be, and so real, penetrative discourse on the subject matter is rarely found, and certainly not enlightening. One of the tragedies of modern Christianity is its almost total isolation from philosophic history; even treading into Christian philosophy, many of them fear, would sow too many seeds of doubt, as the lineage of philosophy inevitably leads to its rejection of Christianity.

The initial concept of Adam and Eve's plight (and thus Salvation) may actually be read as a parable to foreshadow the epistemology of philosophy: that, when Eve finally ate from the Tree of Knowledge, she thus denies God's ordained Will. This may be read, fairly easily, as when one comes to ruminate in the corridors of reason, that God's authority is ultimately rejected on a rational basis. The doctrine would have required a means of insulating it from that kind of threat, and so the concept of Salvation (sinners be damned) would be introduced as a deterrent from straying too far into non-Christian discursive territory.

This was almost perfected in the doctrine itself, as conceived in pre-rational societies, but as logicians and rationalism took off throughout the centuries, various knee-jerk efforts (*cough Inquisition cough*) required more overt exercises of authority to assert its validity.

. . . To come out and state it plainly: God isn't the safeguard of humanity; He is the abstraction around which the implementation of ethical behaviour (which Moses receiveth) could be ensured, since rationalism very seldom promotes universally-ethical behaviour.

All of this aside, however, I would like for you, buggs, to become more familiarized with Christianity—both as a responsibility to your own religious beliefs, but also to more thoroughly and richly understand what deceptively basic (though noble) principles underlay it. As you become familiarized with the more logically nuanced elements of it, you'll realise how some are less valid, but others so much cleverly more so. (Consequently, you'll probably be less inclined to believe in God himself, and more inclined to believe strongly in doing good in general.)

You scientifically can't prove that something doesn't exist, so the onus is on the believers to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God does exist. It's an impossible task.

Empirically, you are correct. However, there are ways of disproving something, but it's not experiential or empirical.

Edit, so as not to needlessly post:

*facepalm* @ bugss1a's subsequent responses

 

[Keef]

You scientifically can't prove that something doesn't exist, so the onus is on the believers to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God does exist. It's an impossible task.

Good scientists don't like the word impossible

 

[drivehard]

Good scientists don't like the word impossible

Simply because the past century of scientific discovery has turned them into optimists.

Put me on record here and now: The size of the universe will never be discovered!

 

[buggs1a]

I care about my relationship with god, not what Christianity is or whatever you said.

God is real and he loves us. Faith is given to us by god. Bible says this and yes bible is fact literal and gods word for us. The book of Hebrews says exactly what faith is.

Sorry, I'm a bit upset with something and don't wanna fight.

 

[Dapper]

Put me on record here and now: The size of the universe will never be discovered!

Dude, you are behind the times.

 

[buggs1a]

Last post maybe.

Faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Bye.
Take care of yourselves everyone.