Creation vs. Evolution

[Jet Badger]

Yep.

Ofcourse non-religious people have the the easiest time thinking rationally as nothing crosses their beliefs. I admire canderson19. Everyone is free to have their beliefs but facts have to be accepted. People, who just plain blindly ignore proven things that take place right in front of their nose, because a book written by a 1st century man says differently, are simply morons.

Why so many people have such a hard time joining their religion and reality together? As said evolution and science in general do not and are not intended to disprove your god. What we know today through logical observations is that there was the "Big bang", a sequence of probable events in an infinite universe and billions of years later here we are. What if there's actually a God and he/she/it caused that? You can easily write off all the current religious doctrines as 95% human error and fantasy coupled with countless mistranslations and misinterpretations. After that everyone is happy. Facts are facts plus you can believe in god without bitching about it.

Personally that's pretty much the view I'm in. I find religion a complete pile of bullcrap and never ever want to have anything to do with it, but when I wonder "what happened before the known time?" or "how infinite the universe is? What's on the outside of it?" it can get quite interesting. I'm not saying that there is a god, neither am I denying it. I'm completely open minded and I'd love to live to the day when we find out what is outside of our sight today. Would it be wormhole portals with rainbow tunnels between parallel universes or a mammal-like face in the sky that claims to have created the universe. Of course that won't happen but regarding god, since it's not proven, believing in it is irrational, so I think Atheism is the most perfect [alternative] view to religion. Though you are free to think otherwise.

I really liked the words Eddie Griffin said towards the uncountable number of religions. "Who gives a **** who the messenger is? Did you get the message? <...> Don't do to others what you don't want to be done to you."

 

[Flaco13]

Ofcourse non-religious people have the the easiest time thinking rationally as nothing crosses their beliefs.

Except for the things they were told to accept as facts.

People, who just plain blindly ignore proven things that take place right in front of their nose, because a book written by a 1st century man says differently, are simply morons.

People who just plain blindly accept the things as facts, only because they were told to do so are ... , no I won´t start to actively insult people.
Two questions I´d like answered:
What are the "things that take place right in front of their nose" exactly, in your opinon?
Who is that man you are talking about, the 1st century man that wrote a book?

Why so many people have such a hard time joining their religion and reality together?

In case you are refering to christians: Romans 12,2 http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Ro12.2

and I don´t think it´s the belief that gives them the hard time. It´s, IMO, You, worldly/secular people who constantly question the belief they have, because you can not understand it.

As said evolution and science in general do not and are not intended to disprove your god. What we know today through logical observations is that there was the "Big bang", a sequence of probable events in an infinite universe and billions of years later here we are.

It´s true they were not intended to disprove God, science has been made ever since and many of the early scientists we know where actually people who believed the word of God.

Even the evolution theory wasn´t intended to disprove God, what Darwins observations did however, was playing right into the hands of atheists (many philosophers amogst them) at that time. Atheists, who´s intention clearly IS to propagate that God doesn´t exist, aren´t a "new" phenomenon arising late 19th century, they have always been there, as not just many parts in the Scriptures elaborate, but also none-biblical writers confirm.

What if there's actually a God and he/she/it caused that? You can easily write off all the current religious doctrines as 95% human error and fantasy coupled with countless mistranslations and misinterpretations. After that everyone is happy. Facts are facts plus you can believe in God without bitching about it.

Simply put it this way, if this idol/god you mentioned shows itself and declares it is creator of all things to all humankind...maybe it allows us to ask it some questions. Like: "So are you YHWH? or Allah? Or all of them? Or are you YHWH, and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, hence the Trinity? Or are you the Antichrist? Are all the books we have, inspired by you? Or only one of them? Or none of them?
It should have the answers to these questions, I mean it claims to be a god, right?

If you are able to imagine such a scenario, IMO, you should at least be aware of the possibillity of a 2nd coming of Christ at Armageddon scenario.

I study the "religious books" Koran, Pentateuch(Books of Moses + Old Testament), Gospel(New Testament), and none "inspired" Books like the deuterocanonical books, the Talmud and the Hadiths. My view still remains that Old and New Testament are the only Scriptures that can back up their own claim as being inspired by God, and that is through prophety.

Personally that's pretty much the view I'm in. I find religion a complete pile of bullcrap and never ever want to have anything to do with it, but when I wonder "what happened before the known time?" or "how infinite the universe is? What's on the outside of it?" it can get quite interesting. I'm not saying that there is a god, neither am I denying it. I'm completely open minded and I'd love to live to the day when we find out what is outside of our sight today. Would it be wormhole portals with rainbow tunnels between parallel universes or a mammal-like face in the sky that claims to have created the universe. Of course that won't happen but regarding god, since it's not proven, believing in it is irrational, so I think Atheism is the most perfect [alternative] view to religion. Though you are free to think otherwise.

I really liked the words Eddie Griffin said towards the uncountable number of religions. "Who gives a **** who the messenger is? Did you get the message? <...> Don't do to others what you don't want to be done to you."

If you are so open minded why do you have to insult people who think different, the way you did in the bolded parts above?
And why do atheists always seem to act like a vampir in a movie that is shown a crucifix when it comes to the topic of God and scriptures etc.? This question really interests me, and it was never answered properly to me. You could just go by Eddie Griffins words and think to yourself "I don´t give a ****", well obviously you can´t.

 

[Exorcet]

You could just go by Eddie Griffins words and think to yourself "I don´t give a ****", well obviously you can´t.

Well, that wouldn't make any sense. The two topics where atheists debate theists are:

"Creation vs Evolution"

"Do you Believe in God?"

There isn't much else to expect.

 

[Jet Badger]

Except for the things they were told to accept as facts.

Every one of us are told something to accept as a fact. Most of those things have nothing to do with religion. Remember the last time you saw a politician talking on the TV? The only difference is that some people will accept a 'fact' while others will ask for evidence of the validity of that fact.

People who just plain blindly accept the things as facts, only because they were told to do so are ... , no I won´t start to actively insult people.
Two questions I´d like answered:
What are the "things that take place right in front of their nose" exactly, in your opinon?
Who is that man you are talking about, the 1st century man that wrote a book?

Looking at the topic of this thread the thing I had in mind was Evolution. The valid evidence of it are easily available, taught in schools and have been posted on this very thread hundreds of times.
The book I was talking about in this case is "Bible". Didn't it appear 2000-something years ago?

In case you are refering to christians: Romans 12,2 http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Ro12.2

and I don´t think it´s the belief that gives them the hard time. It´s, IMO, You, worldly/secular people who constantly question the belief they have, because you can not understand it.

Partly. But mainly because 'we' are able to think rationally.

It´s true they were not intended to disprove God, science has been made ever since and many of the early scientists we know where actually people who believed the word of God.

Even the evolution theory wasn´t intended to disprove God, what Darwins observations did however, was playing right into the hands of atheists (many philosophers amongst them) at that time. Atheists, who´s intention clearly IS to propagate that God doesn´t exist, aren´t a "new" phenomenon arising late 19th century, they have always been there, as not just many parts in the Scriptures elaborate, but also none-biblical writers confirm.

Just like a hardcore Cristian would try to convince someone that their religion is the only true one, just like a Muslim and a Jehovah Witness would do the same, a hardcore Atheist would try to convince you that all of them are wrong. But not all Atheists are out-going to that level.

Simply put it this way, if this idol/god you mentioned shows itself and declares it is creator of all things to all humankind...maybe it allows us to ask it some questions. Like: "So are you YHWH? or Allah? Or all of them? Or are you YHWH, and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, hence the Trinity? Or are you the Antichrist? Are all the books we have, inspired by you? Or only one of them? Or none of them?
It should have the answers to these questions, I mean it claims to be a god, right?

If you are able to imagine such a scenario, IMO, you should at least be aware of the possibillity of a 2nd coming of Christ at Armageddon scenario.

I study the "religious books" Koran, Pentateuch(Books of Moses + Old Testament), Gospel(New Testament), and none "inspired" Books like the deuterocanonical books, the Talmud and the Hadiths. My view still remains that Old and New Testament are the only Scriptures that can back up their own claim as being inspired by God, and that is through prophety.

Again, you're obviously a christian. The way I imagine it, is that there could be only one 'god' and even if he/she/it did came down to people thousands of years ago, the wide array of different religions we have today is just different people interpreting the same event differently at that time. Hence why I don't accept any religion.

If you are so open minded why do you have to insult people who think different, the way you did in the bolded parts above?
And why do atheists always seem to act like a vampir in a movie that is shown a crucifix when it comes to the topic of God and scriptures etc.? This question really interests me, and it was never answered properly to me. You could just go by Eddie Griffins words and think to yourself "I don´t give a ****", well obviously you can´t.

Did I insult absolutely everyone who think differently? Nope. I think you missed the key part of the sentence that you quoted. I was talking about the completely extreme fundamentalists who

...just plain blindly ignore proven things that take place right in front of their nose, because a book written by a 1st century man says differently...

If you check some older posts in this thread you'll see what I'm talking about. It's the individuals that simply ignore valid proof of evolution because they see it as an alternative to the creation myth and that for some ignorant reason is completely against the things that a 2000 year old book is telling them. They refuse, in their words, "to believe" in evolution and their only argument why is "because it's Satan's work!!!111!!!1"

 

[Scaff]

I study the "religious books" Koran, Pentateuch(Books of Moses + Old Testament), Gospel(New Testament), and none "inspired" Books like the deuterocanonical books, the Talmud and the Hadiths. My view still remains that Old and New Testament are the only Scriptures that can back up their own claim as being inspired by God, and that is through prophety.

Wrong tread for most of this discussion as this is now quite clearly in the realm of the 'Do you believe in God' thread, as such I would suggest you take it to that thread.

You will find my reply to the above in it

 

[DQuaN]

People who just plain blindly accept the things as facts, only because they were told to do so are ... , no I won´t start to actively insult people.

This is a joke right????

 

[Petrolhead1]

I am not saying this to offend anyone, and I apologize now if I do offend, but how could evolution supposedly start if there was no supernatural being to start it? Even after that "evolution" doesn't make sense. Creation makes perfect sense, and I'm not saying this just because I'm a Christian, when you compare the two together, Creation seems a much better explanation of how this world began...

 

[Scaff]

I am not saying this to offend anyone, and I apologize now if I do offend, but how could evolution supposedly start if there was no supernatural being to start it? Even after that "evolution" doesn't make sense. Creation makes perfect sense, and I'm not saying this just because I'm a Christian, when you compare the two together, Creation seems a much better explanation of how this world began...

Sorry to say but all you have done is show you don't actually understand Evolution.

Evolution has nothing at all to do with how life started (that's Autobiogenesis), evolution focuses on how life came to be as it is on this planet right now. Two totally different subjects.

Now creation doesn't make any sense at all, as it states that all creatures and planets were created as is, and an overwhelming body of evidence exists to show that is not the case. All that evidence supports the theory of evolution in every way.

 

[Carbonox]

Creationists should have a look at Thunderf00t's videos before trying to argue against evolution.

 

[Petrolhead1]

Sorry to say but all you have done is show you don't actually understand Evolution.

Evolution has nothing at all to do with how life started (that's Autobiogenesis), evolution focuses on how life came to be as it is on this planet right now. Two totally different subjects.

Now creation doesn't make any sense at all, as it states that all creatures and planets were created as is, and an overwhelming body of evidence exists to show that is not the case. All that evidence supports the theory of evolution in every way.

That's your opinion, as far as I'm concerned evolution means nothing, and this "Autobiogenesis" thing you mention still couldn't start without some sort of supernatural being. It couldn't have just started by itself, and take a look at the world around you, nothing as complicated as that couldn't have just "come around." The complexity of say, the human body, is clearly the result of an intelligent Creator

 

[Scaff]

That's your opinion, as far as I'm concerned evolution means nothing,

Actually no its not my opinion at all, is the result of a mountain of documented and peer reviewed evidence, produced to meet the scientific standard of evidence and constantly tested and challenged.

On the other hand we have zero evidence to support creationism at all.

and this "Autobiogenesis" thing you mention still couldn't start without some sort of supernatural being.

Why not?

It couldn't have just started by itself, and take a look at the world around you, nothing as complicated as that couldn't have just "come around." The complexity of say, the human body, is clearly the result of an intelligent Creator

Please, ID is a pseudo-science that has the exact same amount of evidence to back it up as creationism, which is zero.

The evolutionary process that brought about even the most complex of the bodies functions are all rather well documented and tested (and please don't try eyes, that's been done to death in this thread).

 

[BobK]

That's your opinion, as far as I'm concerned evolution means nothing, and this "Autobiogenesis" thing you mention still couldn't start without some sort of supernatural being. It couldn't have just started by itself, and take a look at the world around you, nothing as complicated as that couldn't have just "come around."

Can you explain why abiogenesis (not "autobiogenesis") would require a supernatural being? I find the hypotheses I've seen to be overall fairly credible, and they don't require a supernatural being to start it off.

The complexity of say, the human body, is clearly the result of an intelligent Creator

That's not clear at all. What is clear though, to those who have actually studied the subject, is how the human body evolved naturally.

Also, please keep in mind that the origins of the universe (whether via the Big Bang or another mechanism), the origins of life, and evolution once life began, are three separate distinct topics. It only weakens your argument when you conflate them, as it seems a lot of theists do. It demonstrates you really don't understand the subject(s) in question.

 

[Encyclopedia]

That's your opinion, as far as I'm concerned evolution means nothing, and this "Autobiogenesis" thing you mention still couldn't start without some sort of supernatural being.

It's not really about opinion at all. It's about evidence. Also, what do you know of what matter can and cannot do?

It couldn't have just started by itself, and take a look at the world around you, nothing as complicated as that couldn't have just "come around." The complexity of say, the human body, is clearly the result of an intelligent Creator

Please explain why there has to be an intelligent creator behind it all. Bonus points if you do it without quoting the bible.

 

[Joel]

That's your opinion, as far as I'm concerned evolution means nothing,

Evidence and data collected over hundreds of years that has been scrutinized and evaluated according to the scientific method all supports the theory of evolution. Of course, none of it means anything and it's all just opinion because Petrolhead1 said so on the internet.

I mean, honestly.

 

[Famine]

That's your opinion, as far as I'm concerned evolution means nothing, and this "Autobiogenesis" thing you mention still couldn't start without some sort of supernatural being. It couldn't have just started by itself, and take a look at the world around you, nothing as complicated as that couldn't have just "come around." The complexity of say, the human body, is clearly the result of an intelligent Creator

Several thousand years of people just taking a look at the world around them without bias has reached a conclusion opposite to yours.

 

[Lock2Lock]

It's not really about opinion at all. It's about evidence. Also, what do you know of what matter can and cannot do?

Please explain why there has to be an intelligent creator behind it all. Bonus points if you do it without quoting the bible.

Agreed.

See I am one of those people who are very neutral in these types of situations.

Overall I believe in proof. Not saying I deny the actual existence of a higher power. I just haven't been proven that it exists. Until then I will believe in the amazing amount of evidence that supports the evolution theory.

No one is stupid for their personal beliefs, and I won't judge them for what they believe in either. I just (in my opinion) can't rely on a book, which has been re-written so many times, and just accept it with belief if I never have been proven thst it is correct.

I know that they said they have found the tomb where Christ was. Ok cool, maybe he was there. But does that mean that the whole bible is true. Lot of coincidences there.

The way I see it honestly when these conversations get brought up, what if this higher power created evolution. I mean a lot of things get mixed up (misunderstood over that amount of time, so it could be possible)

Like I said my personal belief in this matter that the evidence backs up evolution, so I will rely on that theory over the other.

 

[Exorcet]

The complexity of say, the human body, is clearly the result of an intelligent Creator

For that to be true, you would need to show that it could never form naturally. Looking at it and going "yep it's complex" is not helpful.

 

[Touring Mars]

and this "Autobiogenesis" thing you mention still couldn't start without some sort of supernatural being. It couldn't have just started by itself

The fact is - no-one knows precisely how life originated on Earth - no-one, so to say that it could not have begun without a supernatural being assumes a level of knowledge about the process that you cannot possibly possess - in other words, you cannot possibly claim to know that life required a supernatural being to exist.

Evolution (the origin of species) and abiogenesis (the origin of life) are two distinct subjects, but they are not unrelated - there is overwhelming evidence to support evolution, but there is less on the origin of life itself... but, for all there is a lack of evidence on precisely how life originated from first principles, there is no such lack of evidence for evolution, and that evidence completely contradicts the special creation hypothesis.

The idea that a supernatural entity was involved (let alone necessary) for life to exist on Earth is not testable, and there is no evidence whatsoever that any such involvement occured. The idea that present day (or even ancient) species were created exactly the way they are/were and didn't evolve from common ancestry is provably and undeniably false. Evolution theory proves beyond all doubt that species arise from earlier species - and the evidence shows that this can and does happen quite happily without the need to invoke the presence of anything supernatural at all.

 

[DQuaN]

The complexity of say, the human body, is clearly the result of an intelligent Creator

...and then he just threw the Appendix in to confuse us???

 

[DK]

The complexity of say, the human body, is clearly the result of an intelligent Creator

Come back to me when you can explain why your "intelligent creator" would make the oesophagus and the windpipe share an opening.

 

[Touring Mars]

Come back to me when you can explain why your "intelligent creator" would make the oesophagus and the windpipe share an opening.

Well, duh... because choking to death on food is all part of His divine plan.

 

[Liquid]

Or why the pleasure department is linked up with the sewage system.

 

[orimarc]

It couldn't have just started by itself, and take a look at the world around you, nothing as complicated as that couldn't have just "come around."

Actually, yes.

BUT (and this is a bug butt, the kind that attracts Sir Mix-A-Lot), that needs time. And when I say time, I mean a LOT of time. I'm talking about millions of years of very small changes. It's not about a fish giving birth to a lizard, it about a fish giving birth to another, almost-identical-fish that gives birth to a-little-bit-farther-from-the-first fish.

 

[Exorcet]

Going back to that quote, nothing did "just come around". As orimac said, very, very, gradual changes happened over time. Changes so small you wouldn't notice them unless they were played in fast forward, on a high setting.

This isn't biological evolution, but it might be easier for people to grasp:

Saying that the human body just came around is like saying the modern F1 car just came around (and to honest, it sounds like creationism). Instead, very basic cars long ago were gradually improved. The ones that did better inspired copy cats or similar designs (survive, reproduce). The ones that did worse didn't win and people stopped using them (die off). If you go from one year to another, the cars look basically the same in most cases. But if you skip decades, or go from beginning to end, they look completely different.

 

[Denur]

The complexity of say, the human body, is clearly the result of an intelligent Creator

At which point do you find that something is so complex, that a creator must be involved? Where do you draw the line? How do you come to that decision?

 

[Jet Badger]

Their arguments are fantastic. Completely destroy the theory of evolution.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

That's your opinion, as far as I'm concerned evolution means nothing, and this "Autobiogenesis" thing you mention still couldn't start without some sort of supernatural being. It couldn't have just started by itself, and take a look at the world around you, nothing as complicated as that couldn't have just "come around." The complexity of say, the human body, is clearly the result of an intelligent Creator

Just because you do not understand the human body does not mean it was designed. If a intelligent being created us, why do millions die from birth defects? Why is it so easy to die? There are many, many,many things on this Earth that will KILL you without thinking, not including humans.

Their arguments are fantastic. Completely destroy the theory of evolution.

Nothing they said had any backing though.
They just dont want to be wrong. There are many lder books that tell the SAME story of Jesus Christ from different religions.
It's just a fairy tale.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Or why the pleasure department is linked up with the sewage system.

 

[Jet Badger]

For the record I was being sarcastic, just found the video funny. Especially the title and the VAT-man with his claims. Ofcourse they believe because they want to believe and are going through circular logic and "supernatural" evidence to justify it. Placebo at it's best.

 

[Carbonox]

If a intelligent being created us, why do millions die from birth defects? Why is it so easy to die?

Well duh, it's because we're already filthy sinners at birth.