Creation vs. Evolution

[Swift]

You actually believe that at one time only a man was on the earth with only one woman and that they literaly ate an apple and screwed all the future people that would be born after that ?

Yes ledhed I literally believe that. Do you believe that there was an accident in space a few trillion years ago and that's where everything came from?

 

[Touring Mars]

Ironically, even though I do not believe that myself, I do believe that it is possible that the entire human race could have come from just two individuals... but for me it is not a satisfactory explanation, even though it is technically possible..

 

[Danoff]

Do you believe that there was an accident in space a few trillion years ago and that's where everything came from?

I think you'd have a hard time finding anyone who believes that.

 

[Swift]

I think you'd have a hard time finding anyone who believes that.

Actually, no. Most public school educated people in America believe in the big bang.

But fair enough.

 

[Danoff]

Actually, no. Most public school educated people in America believe in the big bang.

But fair enough.

But not that it was an accident.

 

[Swift]

But not that it was an accident.

Uh...if it wasn't an accident, then it was done on purpose. That would have to involve a higher power. So, now what?

 

[Danoff]

Uh...if it wasn't an accident, then it was done on purpose. That would have to involve a higher power. So, now what?

A natural consequence of physics. Is it an accident that the earth goes around the sun? Does the Earth go around the sun on purpose? It's a consequence of physics that the Earth goes around the sun. It's a consequence of the existance of the physical laws of nature. That's not an accident.

Now where do the physical laws of nature come from? Good question.

 

[Pako]

Touring Mars,

To explore the answer to your "Why was man made illiterate" question, I would have to say it has to do with free will. If man was designed with free will, then we would also be designed to learn what we choose to learn through different channels that are available. I have the ability to know a lot of stuff, but I have chosen to not learn certain things for one reason or another. Take for example underwater basket weaving. I could learn how, I could be taught how to make baskets underwater, but I have no desire or will to learn that skill. If I want to learn how, I surely could. If I was just given that knowledge at birth, conception, what ever, it would be going against my will. This is a good question and one that I can only guess at, but that would be my best guess as to why we weren't created with ultimate knowledge.

The other possibility might be that our brains would not be able to handle that much information. This answer contradicts your "If we were made perfect than.....". If we were made perfect, then we should be able to handle all that information.

I find the "Free Will" factor to be a more satisfactory reason.

 

[Swift]

A natural consequence of physics. Is it an accident that the earth goes around the sun? Does the Earth go around the sun on purpose? It's a consequence of physics that the Earth goes around the sun. It's a consequence of the existance of the physical laws of nature. That's not an accident.

Now where do the physical laws of nature come from? Good question.

So you're talking about intelligent design on some level then.

 

[Touring Mars]

Touring Mars,

To explore the answer to your "Why was man made illiterate" question, I would have to say it has to do with free will. If man was designed with free will, then we would also be designed to learn what we choose to learn through different channels that are available. I have the ability to know a lot of stuff, but I have chosen to not learn certain things for one reason or another. Take for example underwater basket weaving. I could learn how, I could be taught how to make baskets underwater, but I have no desire or will to learn that skill. If I want to learn how, I surely could. If I was just given that knowledge at birth, conception, what ever, it would be going against my will. This is a good question and one that I can only guess at, but that would be my best guess as to why we weren't created with ultimate knowledge.

The other possibility might be that our brains would not be able to handle that much information. This answer contradicts your "If we were made perfect than.....". If we were made perfect, then we should be able to handle all that information.

I find the "Free Will" factor to be a more satisfactory reason.

Interesting answer... 👍 I too am against the concept that our brains are not capable... our brains are capable of learning a great deal more than we know now... but my point is that our brains have evolved to such an extent, that we as a species are now capable of even having this debate... but that never used to be the case... if we were created in the first instance exactly as we are now, then we should have had the capability that we have now also... so why do more and more ingenious people appear? Why didn't Adam and Eve have a kid who was as bright as Einstein and who worked out what Einstein worked out? The answer, for me anyway, is that this didn't and couldn't have happened, and that our history as a species, is far more complex and long than merely having appeared as fully formed people, capable of complex thought and reason... there is no logical argument that says Adam and Eve could not have had the same mental ability as modern man, since apparently we are exactly the same physically as they were... if they had the same brains as we did, then they had they same capability mentally as we had... but I prefer to believe that we didn't come from Adam and Eve, and that our intelligence has evolved much in the same way as our bodies have...

 

[Danoff]

So you're talking about intelligent design on some level then.

Not necessarily. Where the laws of physics and the basic nature of the universe came from is a rather open ended question. I personally think that the answer will be something like that it is equivalent to the lack of existance - that our reality is logically equivalent to no reality at all - and so it must exist.

But that's just me. Other people could see the supreme being having a role there. I'm willing to just not know rather than cling to a particular speculation. It is interesting to ponder though.

 

[Pako]

Interesting answer... 👍 I too am against the concept that our brains are not capable... our brains are capable of learning a great deal more than we know now... but my point is that our brains have evolved to such an extent, that we as a species are now capable of even having this debate... but that never used to be the case... if we were created in the first instance exactly as we are now, then we should have had the capability that we have now also... so why do more and more ingenious people appear? Why didn't Adam and Eve have a kid who was as bright as Einstein and who worked out what Einstein worked out? The answer, for me anyway, is that this didn't and couldn't have happened, and that our history as a species, is far more complex and long than merely having appeared as fully formed people, capable of complex thought and reason... there is no logical argument that says Adam and Eve could not have had the same mental ability as modern man, since apparently we are exactly the same physically as they were... if they had the same brains as we did, then they had they same capability mentally as we had... but I prefer to believe that we didn't come from Adam and Eve, and that our intelligence has evolved much in the same way as our bodies have...

I feel that we ride on the backs of and improve on the shirt-tails of all the great thinkers before us. It would make sense that our brains are as advanced as they would have been for Adam and Eve, yet our knowledge continues to evolve (yes, I said evolve ). A exponential chain reaction has occurred through the industrial and now the informational age. What would Einstein have done in complete solitude with no teaching or prior knowledge to draw from? He had a ability and was given the tools that were available to use that ability. Take some of the great musical composers. Take away any prior musical references/influences and what kind of music would you have?

 

[ledhed]

Yes ledhed I literally believe that. Do you believe that there was an accident in space a few trillion years ago and that's where everything came from?

So were they Neanderthals or Cro magnon this Adam and Eve ?

To explore the answer to your "Why was man made illiterate" question............etc.

Man had to invent writing before he could be literate just like "man " , communication skills evolved .

 

[Pako]

So were they Neanderthals or Cro magnon this Adam and Eve ?



Man had to invent writing before he could be literate just like "man " , communication skills evolved .

It would have been amazing to watch the progress of a bran-new human trying to communicate for the first time. When I watch my one year old girl try to communicate, I am amazed as I watch in awe. I can only imagine what God must have felt watching his creations mature. This is speculation of course because the Bible doesn't say anything about a maturing process of Adam or Eve in regards to their communication skills. They talked with God and Satan from the get go.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

I can only imagine what God must have felt watching his creations mature.

You can only imagine, my friend, because we both know that it didn't actually happen

They talked with God and Satan from the get go.

Oh please....

It is with a mixture of sadness and excitement that I feel, as the USA sinks into the middle ages. Maybe it is because they didn't actually have a dark age of their own, they need to have one now.

The excitement comes from the fact that if they carry on turning their back on progress (and common sense ) then they will for sure, no longer be world leaders at anything...and that 's a good thing 👍
You guys got so powerful in such a short period of time, it made us pretty jealous.
but now...yes now, we can get a chance, pick up your rabbits feet, and eye of newt, and slip back into time as the rest of the world overtakes you...

 

[Swift]

TB, I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

[Grand Prix]

He's referring to the American "Bible Belt", which is starting to grow to other states...

Although that is a kinda xenophobic statement. Although you do see more and more often religious people seeking help from God instead of solving their own problems, ala Ned Flanders: "I did everything the Bible told me to do, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"

Why would we need to hunt down criminals when we can just have faith in that God or Jesus will do right?

 

[Pako]

TB, I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

What he's talking about is the religious rulers of the past in his country raped, pillaged, murdered, and held positions of power for personal gain. He somehow is relating this to Christ, and in some way thinks that their history will be repeated in the U.S. The major difference between his religious rulers and Christ is that Christ died on a cross for my sins gaining nothing personal, in fact quite contrary to personal gain, he was a personal sacrifice.

 

[Grand Prix]

What he's talking about is the religious rulers of the past in his country raped, pillaged, murdered, and held positions of power for personal gain. He somehow is relating this to Christ, and in some way thinks that their history will be repeated in the U.S. The major difference between his religious rulers and Christ is that Christ died on a cross for my sins gaining nothing personal, in fact quite contrary to personal gain, he was a personal sacrifice.

Hmm, maybe. But I think my post might be more spot on: He thinks that as long people elect presidents for their religious principles as opposed to their politcal policies, the people will no longer dictate change in their country for the better. The masses oftentimes switch political views when the current political party becomes corrupt. When this stops happening due to a string of victories from the party's religous principles, the party will become so corrupt it could pass laws for more political power.

In short, he's comparing the President of the United States to the Kings of Britain, who only needed to tell people a watery tart threw a sword at them to gain immense power. It has nothing to do with Christ Himself. Well, at least that's what I think he's referring to.

 

[Swift]

He's referring to the American "Bible Belt", which is starting to grow to other states...

Although that is a kinda xenophobic statement. Although you do see more and more often religious people seeking help from God instead of solving their own problems, ala Ned Flanders: "I did everything the Bible told me to do, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"

Why would we need to hunt down criminals when we can just have faith in that God or Jesus will do right?

Thanks for the clarifitcation. But do you even have the most remote clue of what Christ is about?

 

[Danoff]

What he's talking about is the religious rulers of the past in his country raped, pillaged, murdered, and held positions of power for personal gain. He somehow is relating this to Christ

He's linking it to religion in general - not so much christ.



I've got a question though. This is not a personal attack on people's religion. If you want to believe in God that's fine with me, go right ahead. But in the spirit of this thread, I have to question some of the beliefs that seem to come along with God.

You've read Genesis. You've read the ten commandments - you know the part about the harvest...

Lev 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.

Lev 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:5 And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will.

Lev 19:6 It shall be eaten the same day [the 1st day] ye offer it, and on the morrow [the 2nd day]: and if ought remain until the third day [the 3rd day], it shall be burnt in the fire.

Lev 19:7 And if it be eaten at all on the third day, it is abominable; it shall not be accepted.

Lev 19:8 Therefore every one that eateth it shall bear his iniquity, because he hath profaned the hallowed thing of the LORD: and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Lev 19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

Lev 19:10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

Lev 19:12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

Lev 19:13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

Lev 19:14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment [do not pervert justice]: thou shalt not respect the person of [do not show partiality to] the poor, nor honor the person of [nor favoritism to] the mighty: but in righteousness [fairness] shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

Lev 19:16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer [spreading slander] among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of [do not do anything that endangers] thy neighbour; I am the LORD.

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour [frankly], and not suffer sin upon him [so you will not share in his guilt].

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Lev 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind [do not mate different kinds of animals]: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed [do not plant your field with two kinds of seed]: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee [do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material].

Lev 19:20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

Lev 19:21 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering.

Lev 19:22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.

Lev 19:23 And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of.

Lev 19:24 But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the LORD withal.

Lev 19:25 And in the fifth year shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.

Lev 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Lev 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

Lev 19:29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.

Lev 19:30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Lev 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:32 Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the LORD.

Lev 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.

Lev 19:36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Lev 19:37 Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD.

So it should be obvious that the origin of the earth laid out in Genesis is not the way it happened (comeon, seriously that can't be right... and you don't have to defend it). It should also be obvious that God would not be interested in the methods and timing of the harvest.

The bible was written by men, and quite clearly has a few of their misunderstandings of God's word, or of the universe or whatever. It's a translation and perhaps God never said anything specifically about the harvest, or he said something about the Earth being created and they didn't realize that the sun had to come before the night and day or whatever. At any rate you can quite clearly continue to believe in God and not take the bible as the literal word of God.

So given that God probably didn't actually regulate the harvest, and that night and day were not created before the sun... or that the oceans were not created before the sun. Why is it that we can't just all agree that the world is a little older than 6000 years? Does it have to be taken so literally? Can't god's creation of man be through evolution?

 

[Pako]

Hmm, maybe. But I think my post might be more spot on: He thinks that as long people elect presidents for their religious principles as opposed to their politcal policies, the people will no longer dictate change in their country for the better. The masses oftentimes switch political views when the current political party becomes corrupt. When this stops happening due to a string of victories from the party's religous principles, the party will become so corrupt it could pass laws for more political power.

In short, he's comparing the President of the United States to the Kings of Britain, who only needed to tell people a watery tart threw a sword at them to gain immense power. It has nothing to do with Christ Himself. Well, at least that's what I think he's referring to.

Maybe so, but I still refer back to the basic principle of my prior post. I also find it hard to trust ANY politician regardless of their religious preferences.

 

[Swift]

Danoff: What did that passage have to do with the creation of the world?

 

[Grand Prix]

Thanks for the clarifitcation. But do you even have the most remote clue of what Christ is about?

Sure, Christ died for our sins so we could have eternal life. I don't see how that relates to the Kings of Britain though.

 

[Grand Prix]

Maybe so, but I still refer back to the basic principle of my prior post. I also find it hard to trust ANY politician regardless of their religious preferences.

👍 👍 👍

 

[Swift]

Sure, Christ died for our sins so we could have eternal life. I don't see how that relates to the Kings of Britain though.

Statements like this:

Why would we need to hunt down criminals when we can just have faith in that God or Jesus will do right?

Show that you really don't know what's up. That's why I asked.

 

[Danoff]

Danoff: What did that passage have to do with the creation of the world?

It establishes credibility.

 

[Swift]

It establishes credibility.

I'm still lost as to what you're trying to say.

 

[Grand Prix]

Statements like this:

Show that you really don't know what's up. That's why I asked.

Oh, I'm sorry. Of course I was only referring to extreme Christains, not all Christains in general. My apologies for not fully understanding the Bible, after all, my parents figured I didn't need to go to church or Sunday school if I didn't want to.

 

[Swift]

Oh, I'm sorry. Of course I was only referring to extreme Christains, not all Christains in general. My apologies for not fully understanding the Bible, after all, my parents figured I didn't need to go to church or Sunday school if I didn't want to.

Apology completly accepted.

I do not fully understand the bible and I never will(but that doesn't stop me from striving for it). Infact, nobody ever will. But there are basic concepts that should be taken from it.

I would never expect you to know the whole bible. However, if you're going to make a statement like that, it would be good to know what the bible says first.