Creation vs. Evolution

[Pako]

Well, sort of, but by definition, an agnostic says its impossible to know whether or not God exists:

Web definitions of agnosticism

Basically, if you're an agnostic, you're formally shrugging your shoulders and saying "Who knows?"

I have always thought that agnostic's believed that there was "something" or some kind of divinity but they didn't know what it was, nor did they think any of the current religions has the right answers.

 

[Small_Fryz]

2.) Dedicating your lifestyle to a God that teaches love and forgiveness for others is not wasting any ones time. If it was, I wish more people would waste their time that way, the world would be a better place with all that wasted life.

I will have to agree with you on that, but without the god in the sentace, i wish more people lived their life with some of the moral's that the bible teaches in mind 👍

 

[DadtheWheel]

@Famine: Yes Mazda, the same. <I don’t see a smiley that nods, so please mentally insert here.>

As to my wife’s faith you (general not specific) are incorrect. She is firm in her belief of God. Let me try to put this another way…

She KNOWS God is real, she KNOWS she has a spirit that God will lift to heaven when she dies. This is a non-debatable point to her. In other words there IS, and that is the end of the debate for her.

What she is saying is that if I am right and there is no God (which she will quickly tell you I am wrong) than when she dies there is NO spirit, she will never have of known life (oblivion means you think no more) and THEN it will not matter to her as she will ALREADY be dead.

Now how can she feel this way you ask? She does something a few of us don’t, namely keep an open mind and respect the feelings and beliefs of others. She does not agree with some of those beliefs (such as my disbelief in God) but she also knows it is NOT her place to judge me; that (to her) is reserved for God and God alone.

Since I am at it (two posts in the hole now) let me add one more thing. Maybe it has already been said here and I missed it, if this is the case than apologies in advance.

Science can disprove Genesis as Famine has pointed out over and over. There is simply no empirical evidence to support it. I could go on about other parts of the Bible but why bother? What science does not try to do is disprove God. The very definition of God means he can not measured, tested, quantified, or any other such thing. Science simply ignores the concept of God in its entirety since the very definition of God is also a fallacy.

 

[Danoff]

Sorry to jump right in on a response to your post DTW, but I couldn't help it. danoff, how can you make a statement like that? It is common for people to question their faith, which I think is healthy. This thread alone has strengthened my faith in God and I'm grateful for this forum and thread for making that possible. It sounds like Mrs. DTW was hedging her bets on God's existence. I'm sorry but you are very wrong on this one danoff. I think you need to calm down just a little. There was no BAM or RIGHT THERE... Take a deep breath and relax now.

So I'm confused now, you can be agnostic and still get in to Heaven? I thought you had to have Faith? I didn't know you could think that it was possible that God does exist at all and still be Christian.

Maybe I'm Christian!!

 

[Danoff]

As to my wife’s faith you (general not specific) are incorrect. She is firm in her belief of God. Let me try to put this another way…

She KNOWS God is real, she KNOWS she has a spirit that God will lift to heaven when she dies. This is a non-debatable point to her. In other words there IS, and that is the end of the debate for her.

What she is saying is that if I am right and there is no God (which she will quickly tell you I am wrong) than when she dies there is NO spirit, she will never have of known life (oblivion means you think no more) and THEN it will not matter to her as she will ALREADY be dead.

Now how can she feel this way you ask? She does something a few of us don’t, namely keep an open mind and respect the feelings and beliefs of others. She does not agree with some of those beliefs (such as my disbelief in God) but she also knows it is NOT her place to judge me; that (to her) is reserved for God and God alone.

What is the point of this whole discussion if she doesn't think it's possible that you're right? Why would she even bring this up if she's sure that God exists? What possible difference does it make to her what you think will happen to her when she dies if she is CERTAIN that God exists and she's going to Heaven.

Sorry, I only see a point in the conversation if she does question her faith. But of course if there is any doubt in her mind, then she's agnostic and is going to hell...

Science can disprove Genesis as Famine has pointed out over and over. There is simply no empirical evidence to support it. I could go on about other parts of the Bible but why bother? What science does not try to do is disprove God. The very definition of God means he can not measured, tested, quantified, or any other such thing. Science simply ignores the concept of God in its entirety since the very definition of God is also a fallacy.

Science has not disproven Genesis. It is not possible to disprove Genesis or the existance of God. When miracles are admitted as possibilities, it is impossible for anyone to disprove anything.

 

[Pako]

So I'm confused now, you can be agnostic and still get in to Heaven? I thought you had to have Faith? I didn't know you could think that it was possible that God does exist at all and still be Christian.

Maybe I'm Christian!!

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse you.

Faith in Christ and by his grace we are saved.

Read DadtheWheel's prior post. ^^^

 

[Swift]

Just saying I get PS's humour also. Only stupid people wouldn't. We should burn those stupid people, maybe crucify them, that would be fun.

And I'm assuming that's supposed to be funny?

 

[Danoff]

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse you.

Faith in Christ and by his grace we are saved.

Read DadtheWheel's prior post. ^^^

How does one claim to have faith in Christ if one is not certain Christ or God exists?

 

[Pako]

How does one claim to have faith in Christ if one is not certain Christ or God exists?

Who said there was uncertainty? Read DadtheWheel's prior post. ^^^ Mrs. DTW has no uncertainty in her faith.

 

[Danoff]

Who said there was uncertainty? Read DadtheWheel's prior post. ^^^ Mrs. DTW has no uncertainty in her faith.

Yes I saw that. He changed the story. But then he invalidated the story when he did that. I'm still waiting for a response from him. But now I'm asking you directly in response to this post

Sorry to jump right in on a response to your post DTW, but I couldn't help it. danoff, how can you make a statement like that? It is common for people to question their faith, which I think is healthy. This thread alone has strengthened my faith in God and I'm grateful for this forum and thread for making that possible. It sounds like Mrs. DTW was hedging her bets on God's existence. I'm sorry but you are very wrong on this one danoff. Take a deep breath and relax now.

How does one claim to have faith in Christ if one is not certain Christ or God exists?

 

[Swift]

Yes I saw that. He changed the story. But then he invalidated the story when he did that. I'm still waiting for a response from him. But now I'm asking you directly in response to this post



How does one claim to have faith in Christ if one is not certain Christ or God exists?

Questioning one's faith and doubting it are different things. Doubting would be saying, "God can't get be through this" Questioning is saying "How will God get me through this?" That's the difference. I question my personal faith all the time as I feel it can be much stronger.

 

[Danoff]

Questioning one's faith and doubting it are different things. Doubting would be saying, "God can't get be through this" Questioning is saying "How will God get me through this?" That's the difference. I question my personal faith all the time as I feel it can be much stronger.

The second question is not questioning your faith, it's wondering about the path that "God" has laid out for you. That's just thinking about the future and wondering where you'll end up. It's not the same thing.

To be in a state of questioning your faith is any of the following:

Am I really justified in believing in God?
Is my religion correct?
Does God really care about me?

That's questioning your faith.

 

[Pako]

Yes I saw that. He changed the story. But then he invalidated the story when he did that. I'm still waiting for a response from him. But now I'm asking you directly in response to this post

How does one claim to have faith in Christ if one is not certain Christ or God exists?

I see, so this is a unrelated question to the current conversation. In light of that, I would have to say that if you are not certain in your heart of hearts that Christ is your savior, then it would be fair to say that one has little or no faith that he is your savior. However, if you have acknowledged Christ as your savior and have experienced Christ in your life, chances are that your faith won't be wavering, but steadfast and consistent. I hope I've answered that question to your satisfaction.

 

[Swift]

The second question is not questioning your faith, it's wondering about the path that "God" has laid out for you. That's just thinking about the future and wondering where you'll end up. It's not the same thing.

To be in a state of questioning your faith is any of the following:

Am I really justified in believing in God?
Is my religion correct?
Does God really care about me?

That's questioning your faith.

Hmmm...That's questioning God and his existance specifically. My faith is personal. I question my ability to believe in the promises of God. But I don't for one second questions God's ability to deliver on those promises.

 

[Danoff]

I see, so this is a unrelated question to the current conversation. In light of that, I would have to say that if you are not certain in your heart of hearts that Christ is your savior, then it would be fair to say that one has little or no faith that he is your savior. However, if you have acknowledged Christ as your savior and have experienced Christ in your life, chances are that your faith won't be wavering, but steadfast and consistent. I hope I've answered that question to your satisfaction.

Hmmm...That's questioning God and his existance specifically. My faith is personal. I question my ability to believe in the promises of God. But I don't for one second questions God's ability to deliver on those promises.

I'm not getting it.

You have faith in two things. Faith that God exists and faith that God's will and plan is good. Are you saying that it's ok not to have faith that God's plan will pan out for you? If not, what is it exactly that is ok to question. What does your religion allow you to call into uncertainty and still make it in to Heaven?


But this is really an aside. DTW's original post talked about his wife being uncertain that God EXISTED AT ALL! He's since clarified that that wasn't his intention, but that's what all this started from. My response to this - that if you question God's existance you are agnostic and will go to hell, seems to have been validated by Pako here - so I stand behind my original post.

So I guess you no longer think I was off base with my original comments Pako. So you're retracting this:

I'm sorry but you are very wrong on this one danoff.

 

[Pako]

The statement was "If" God doesn't exist then that's OK too, but she wouldn't know the difference after she was dead anyhow. This statement doesn't me she has wavering faith, it only means that if she dies and God doesn't exist, she won't know the difference.

So yes, you are still very wrong on this one.

 

[Swift]

I'm not getting it.

You have faith in two things. Faith that God exists and faith that God's will and plan is good. Are you saying that it's ok not to have faith that God's plan will pan out for you? If not, what is it exactly that is ok to question. What does your religion allow you to call into uncertainty and still make it in to Heaven?

I believe God exists and that his plan is good for me. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. So, I have faith in God that everything will work out in the end even though I can't see it.

 

[Danoff]

The statement was "If" God doesn't exist then that's OK too, but she wouldn't know the difference after she was dead anyhow. This statement doesn't me she has wavering faith, it only means that if she dies and God doesn't exist, she won't know the difference.

So yes, you are still very wrong on this one.

There are only two possibilities here (and I am the king of beating a dead horse) when one uses the often used argument that "either way, the religious person will be ok".

1) The person using that argument is agnostic and going to hell because they admit the possibility that God doesn't exist.
2) The person using that argument is completely 100% devout. In which case the argument does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER to strengthen their position, because they were 100% devout to begin with.

Case 2 is altogether COMPLETELY pointless - which is why I didn't think that was what was going on. Since it appears that that is the case - I'm willing to drop this discussion on the grounds that it makes zero difference to anyone.

 

[Pako]

There are only two possibilities here (and I am the king of beating a dead horse) when one uses the often used argument that "either way, the religious person will be ok".

1) The person using that argument is agnostic and going to hell because they admit the possibility that God doesn't exist.
2) The person using that argument is completely 100% devout. In which case the argument does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER to strengthen their position, because they were 100% devout to begin with.

Case 2 is altogether COMPLETELY pointless - which is why I didn't think that was what was going on. Since it appears that that is the case - I'm willing to drop this discussion on the grounds that it makes zero difference to anyone.

In response to point #1, knowing that it's possible that God doesn't exist doesn't mean that you believe that He doesn't exist.

 

[(G)]

Let it hit page 115 before we let it die on the grounds that this isn't changing anyone's mind.

 

[Danoff]

In response to point #1, knowing that it's possible that God doesn't exist doesn't mean that you believe that He doesn't exist.

But it dose mean that you don't have faith and are going to hell doesn't it?

 

[Famine]

Let it hit page 115 before we let it die on the grounds that this isn't changing anyone's mind.

It's on page 23 for me, so that's SOME time coming.

 

[Pako]

But it dose mean that you don't have faith and are going to hell doesn't it?

No, it doesn't.

 

[Danoff]

No, it doesn't.

How is it possible to know that God may not exist and still have faith? That's the very definition of agnostic. It's the very definition of not having faith.

This isn't beating a dead horse anymore. Now I'm just completely thoroughly confused about your religious convictions. I don't see how you can know that God may not exist and still call yourself faithful.

 

[Zardoz]

Let it hit page 115 before we let it die on the grounds that this isn't changing anyone's mind.

Nah. They're having too much fun jousting.


BTW, just for grins, I Googled "creationism versus evolution forum", and got 115,000 hits. I clicked on a few. Some of them are pretty good, like this one:

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dBoard.cgi

Some are not so good, of course, but in any case, there's a lot of dead horse-beating going on out there. I saw one post that said something about "the Yahoo forum discussion that's been going on for four years".

 

[Swift]

How is it possible to know that God may not exist and still have faith? That's the very definition of agnostic. It's the very definition of not having faith.

This isn't beating a dead horse anymore. Now I'm just completely thoroughly confused about your religious convictions. I don't see how you can know that God may not exist and still call yourself faithful.

Peter denied Christ 3 times(before he was crucified) and he still got to preach on the day of pentecost and got the keys to the kingdom. So, just because you doubt God once here and there, doesn't mean you're going to hell.

 

[Danoff]

Peter denied Christ 3 times(before he was crucified) and he still got to preach on the day of pentecost and got the keys to the kingdom. So, just because you doubt God once here and there, doesn't mean you're going to hell.

I understand that. I understand that people get "saved", that you can doubt God and yet in the end if you see the light you'll go to Heaven.

What if you fall dead while you're doubting God? If you die uncertain that God exists, you die an agnostic - meaning you're going to hell. Is that not correct?

 

[Swift]

I understand that. I understand that people get "saved", that you can doubt God and yet in the end if you see the light you'll go to Heaven.

What if you fall dead while you're doubting God? If you die uncertain that God exists, you die an agnostic - meaning you're going to hell. Is that not correct?

If you reversed that thought and waited till you thought you were about to die and then said, "OK, I have faith in Jesus now" Then you die, that's the same thing. God is not mocked

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

So, to answer your question, If you're saved you're saved and if you're not you're not. A little bit of doubt doesn't negate salvation for one who is truly saved. But when one is NOT truly saved, like Judas, you're not going to heaven anyway.

 

[Danoff]

If you reversed that thought and waited till you thought you were about to die and then said, "OK, I have faith in Jesus now" Then you die, that's the same thing. God is not mocked

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

So, to answer your question, If you're saved you're saved and if you're not you're not. A little bit of doubt doesn't negate salvation for one who is truly saved. But when one is NOT truly saved, like Judas, you're not going to heaven anyway.

I thought that to be truly saved one must have complete faith in God's existance.

 

[Swift]

I thought that to be truly saved one must have complete faith in God's existance.

Do you think that peter wasn't saved WHEN he denied God? He very much was. But he SINNED. He then repented and turned from it. But it was the Sin that seperated him from God for that time. It's not a sin to struggle with your faith.

BTW, clean out your pm's!