Damage, Eyetoy, Weather, and More!!!

[kikie]

I don't think John's saying don't include damage at all,
...but he didn't say they shouldn't include it for his sake.

I wasn't "quoting" John but all the others whom are telling that damage is stupid. Maybe it sounded like I was "quoting John" but I wasn't.
Isn't it the purpose of this thread to talk about "Damage, Eyetoy, Weather, and More!!! " And there are many other "same" and "unnecessary" thread, were people say that they don't want somethings in and others actually want it!!
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Writing in a foreign language is not that easy.

 

[JohnBM01]

As the United Kingdom's T5-R quoted in Post #23, Taku Imasaki, America's GT producer, said that the AI is kept passive to satisfy all markets. I don't complain about AI in GT4 all the time, but TOCA Race Driver 2's AI is pretty good... except when you spin out and others ram into you. Like I said, I think GT4's computer AI was better than GT3's, as I have seen only a few times where AI cars bump into each other. I'm not the one who thinks GT games lack evolution. But even TOCA RD 2's AI have some AI run ins from what I've seen. But like I seen, Pro Race Driver- worst ever AI in a racing game. So much so, that these dumb asses can make or break your race. And since you cannot Restart races in PRD, it's pure horror.

And Live4Speed (Post #30), that's right. If GT5's damage turns out to be the primary selling point of the next GT, this was the same way I felt about the proposed online play in GT4. Of course, if you can have one or the other for a GT game, which would you have? Online play or damage? I think many of us know the answer to this one. But that's my beef. It's always been about the cars. It's always been about the racing. I remembered racing a Jaguar XJ-R9 against the big dogs in the GT World Championship. Though I never really won with it, GT World Championship is a very heated race series. I felt like I was racing for my life in this series. The racing was pretty intense, and I'd like to imagine if there was 20-car fields with prototypes, GT cars, and (maybe) touring cars all competiting at once (if you want to discuss seperate championships and all, reply to my "Seperate Championships, Class Victories, and Overall Victories" thread), racing would be intense with damage, perhaps weather, and all that.

If I come up with any Eyetoy ideas, I'll post them. I'm "John," but I'm not hating for typoing my name. I'm not hating, you dig me? Good.

 

[Dave A]

No worries Kikie, just the order of posts and a wrong assumption thats all .

 

[Robin]

I wonder why Sony didnt hint at damage in the E3 vision GT vid...........they could have shown us atleast ONE clip of a car hitting something and getting damaged...even if it was purely a beta damage model.....

 

[Gabkicks]

Damage just makes the game more immersive. Its quite an interesting and frustrating experiense miss shifting and hurting your engine while battling someone. POPCORN!!! (lfs joke) i want day to night changes on endurance races. 24 hours of sunlight dont make sense unless you are on the north pole.

 

[Pebb]

I would like to see if anyone goes off track or theres a lot of bad things happening on track safey car has to come on. While having the yellow flag or a different colour flag is being waved.

 

[Dave A]

That'd be like GTR then, works well in that game, but when the safety car does come out, I always switch to AI control.

 

[JohnBM01]

Well, "24 Hours of Sunlight" may sound dumb, but I don't think it's dumb. This is only because PD hasn't implemented a time-cycle engine. Still, 24 hours is 24 hours even if the skies don't reflect that. I, too, wished for some time cycles, but I wasn't complaining. the 24 hour races are still tough as nails. I've completed one out of the three in GT4 (24 Hours of Le Mans, with chicanes).

I still want PD to perhaps come up with a new graphics engine allowing for time cycles, weather (maybe even dynamic), and maybe a few other things. As much as I talk about Gran Turismo in relation to other games (even unrelated), I think there is still room for improvement. I have taped this year's 12 Hours of Sebring (about 6 hours worth) and the 24 Hours of Le Mans (2 worth- SP). And before I accidentally taped over my Sebring coverage with WWE Wrestling, I have a bit of an idea. I think PD should check out sportscar racing at night. With the beautiful day and night at Sebring, I've seen how prototypes and GTs look at night. I think I've seen little lighting around, but the lights are very bright. By looking on television, I've seen very bright lights from the headlights, taillights, and some of the lighting on track. I think if PD implemented new lighting textures for cars like the Team Oreca Dodge Viper GTS-R, that thing would look extremely bright going around a race track either in evening light or nighttime. Then too, I'd like to see some races you can compete in, and be able to compete in different times of day with different conditions. Imagine doing the Grand Valley 300km starting in daylight, but the sun goes down, and the race would be complete during late evening, but not night. Or for an easier example, you have ten race venues in either Normal or Reverse (granted there are any), but you race the track during certain times of day as weather conditions are random. If there are weather conditions, you can probably count on being able to purchase Intermediate and Rain tires/tyres. Because who knows? When it comes to precipitation, we may see drizzle, light rain, all the way up to heavy rain.

Gran Turismo has the cars down, it has the tracks done well, I think PD should kind of concentrate on the environment now.

 

[JohnBM01]

I've been looking online for game engines which feature time cycles and even weather changes. The point of all of this is to imagine if PD can come up with certain modeling schemes to perhaps utilize in making a more impressive environment model.

http://www.grinninglizard.com/lilith/ (Lilith 3D)
http://www.artificialstudios.com/features.php (Reality Engine)
http://www.garagegames.com/mg/snapshot/view.php?qid=614 (Features Render Real Life Engine)

As I said earlier, the point of this was to give out some examples of certain gaming engines which feature day-to-night cycles and weather effects. And I recommend looking at the Reality Engine link I have provided because it's the nicest looking one of my links provided. Now I've been reading and seeing pictures of GTR, and let me tell you something [else]. It is insane in terms of getting all that detail on track. All those tracks, all those cars on track, not to mention day-to-night endurance racing. I'm not going to say "it's not that hard to make a day/night game engine that features weather, because it isn't. I'm sure if we have software developers on GTPlanet, I bet any of the software developers on GTP will say it's not as easy as it looks to make a complete game engine with time and weather eycles, not to mention more challenging night racing and racing in foggy conditions. Super GT (formerly the JGTC) raced a round at Fuji in foggy weather, so don't think this is just harking back to the old days of racing games.

I think it is possible for PD to come up with such an engine. Do YOU think it's possible?

 

[Dave A]

It's very possible, but like you said, it's not easy. I was reading some comments from the creators of GTR, not all tracks have a cycle in GTR, some you can choose to race in the day or at night, some you can race 24hr's and watch the time cycle ect. It does cause problems, and personally I'm not as bothered about day-night cycles since I'll never race 24hr's anyway, I'd like to be able to race each track at dawn, day and night though which is much easier to do to just have a set model than have it cycle. I would like PD to get rid of the stupidly long endurance races too, like the 8 hour one at Motegi and the 4 hour one in the MX-5's, and that not even contemplating the 24 hour races, one of which my B-Spec driver can't even do no matter what car he's in (it's that love affain with the barriers down Mulsanne straight) so I'm stuck for completing the game, getting the Bentley Speed 6 and the black F1 car. If people want to race 24 hours let them setup their own 24 hour races, I'm not prepared to accept that I'm forced to race that long to complete a game. Anyway, I've gone waaaaaay off topic here

 

[JohnBM01]

I kind of wish that with the idea of a 24-hour cycle, I can imagine races being held at certain times of day and night. Perhaps one of the weirdest race times for a race in a game has to be in the 6:00 AM hour. If you're a racing game veteran, I'm talking about Out of Blue (Ridge Racer Type 4). Imagine RACING at 6:00 AM! Most of us here in Central Time wake up on Sunday morning to watch most Formula One races!

To be realistic, though, perhaps time can shift very fast in low-level races, not so fast in more challenging races, then for the hardcord endurance racers, real time. The game "Le Mans 24 Hours" had you play (in this example, I'll use the 24 Hours of Le Mans) Le Mans for either 10 minutes, 24 minutes, 240 minutes, or 24 hours. I haven't played it in a while, but all I have completed is all the other endurance times except the 10 hours of Petit Le Mans and the 24 hours of Le Mans. But with each endurance, time moves very fast or very slow depending on the length of the race. So maybe for the Sunday Cup, I see myself probably racing at a 3:00 PM/15:00 timeframe, and the race ends as the sun sets. You know me. I LOVE night racing. So, I can race Tokyo R246 in the late evening, and have the race end at somewhere around 9:30 PM/21:30 or 10:00 PM/22:00. Time inspiration should come from Grand Theft Auto games. I think at maybe 18:00 in GTA: Vice City, lights begin to come on to welcome the darkness. So, I'd have to imagine a specialized time sequence for each race. If each race will implement this new graphics and environment engine I'm imagining, we can play a race at any time of day. The only wildcard would probably be either racing a certain time of day with some predicted weather conditions, or perhaps having weather random, but we select a certain time of day right down to hours and minutes. Always wondered what Special Stage Routes 5 and 11 would be like in the daytime. Probably wouldn't have that luster, though.

Anyhow, the thing I'm most concerned with is time cycles now. I think I made my damage points, but the real plus would be about time cycles. Any of you still think it will be possible to design such a game engine for the next GT (read Post #39 by me.)?

 

[DarkWitness]

All I want to do is wreck a civic.

 

[Laorin]

Hahaha, so many people have been touting the eyetoy as being able to "map a car into the game from images". Every person that thinks this is possible with their car out on the driveway has absolutely no idea as to what it takes to render a car in any virtual 3D environment.

The way that it will probably wind up being implemented is they will have some kind of special image in a magazine you're supposed to take a picture of with the Eyetoy to unlock, because the game will be coded to look for that specific image. It's not like those CSI episodes where you take a car facing the camera and rotate it to read the license plate - which HAS happened in one episode - and I about died laughing.

One of the big things to me for night racing is having PD implement accurate headlights that ACTUALLY FUNCTION for a change! They're designed to help you see at night! So make it light up stuff! Geez.

Also I think the ability to hear a pit crew advisor via radio helmet thingy would be pretty damn awesome, at least for them to notify you of weather reports and whatnot.. like they'll inform you that you'll be due for rain in about 30 minutes or something like that. Nothing annoying like football commentators (cough EA cough).

 

[Dave A]

Yeah the headlights is a must, imagine racing at the ring at night, thet'd be cool.

 

[Slicks]

A time engine should be implemented, and I am sure will be.

But if they're going to do damage in GT5, they'd sure as hell better fix the AI first. I don't want to be wrecked when I brake early on Hong Kong, and I don't want to be damaged by a car turning into me.

It seems that GT4's AI simply has an approximate race line programmed in, and may/may not know where the other AI cars in the field are, while it most definitely does not know where you are.
I think in order to fix the AI, it will have to be able to sense where the other cars and obstacles are and act accordingly to avoid collisions.

 

[2004TSX]

Yeah the headlights is a must, imagine racing at the ring at night, thet'd be cool.

That'd be awesome. Racing the ring at night. ONE THING. With real FUNCTIONAL headlights, they can't have the damn brights on 24/7! And a few cars, they need to put the right headlights in. Don't you think? For example, Acura TSX/Honda Accord Euro R..It has Xenon headlights. In the game, they look halogen! (Blue light, Xenon/Yellow light, Halogen)

 

[JohnBM01]

Let me tell you something, GTP. I'm not as critical about headlights as I am about damage. Headlight usage can really be seen in stuff like sportscar racing and rally racing. In terms of sportscar racing rules, amber lights are used by GT race cars, while the prototypes have the bright lights. The only other game I know where you can change light colors is "Tokyo Xtreme Racer 3." And I'm going on games I've previously played. In addition to light colors, if you get a fog light kit, you get extra lights to work with.

The best useage of headlights in a racing game that I know of is "Le Mans 24 Hours." Those things are BRIGHT! When you see a sportscar race on television, lights are usually pretty bright, so the lights are bright when darkness ensues the whole race track. I've been using "Le Mans 24 Hours" in a lot of my Gran Turismo discussions... all I can say is, if you don't have the game and you like Gran Turismo, get Le Mans 24 Hours. It may be an older game, but still a good one. But back on topic, I think Le Mans 24 Hours has some of the brighest light displays. Race an event in the rain or one of the two endurances in the game, and just look behind you to see those lights really shine at night. I think if PD can make something this bright, but functional, the gaming action would be great at night.

I would surely like to race Grand Valley, Deep Forest, Tokyo R246, and Le Mans at night. Autumn Ring Mini would be a nice sunset deal, as would El Capitan and Suzuka. For a weird twist, maybe Seattle should be raced in not rain- but snow! The track is technical with elevation changes, so a rally challenge would be nice on an existing course with snow or ice. And I agree. I think PD should try to come up with a time engine for all or most tracks. In addition to time, perhaps add some weather effects. Like in an Endurance Race, it's partly cloudy, then it rains, and EVERYONE dashes to the pits to change to Rain Tires. You dig my vibe, man?

 

[Jedi2016]

I think with access to 128-bit HDR lighting, bright headlights will not be a problem.

As for the damage thing, you folks need to be careful what you wish for. If GT gets damage, it's going to be real damage.. none of this cheesy stuff like you get in TOCA or Forza. You won't be able to play bumpercars and only get some scratched paint like in TOCA. One mistake, and you're out of the race. AND you have to pay out the ass to get it fixed. And there won't be any "spectacular" crashes like in Burnout, either.. real crashes are mainly just "bam". And then it's over, in a tenth of a second.

We'll spend the next two years clamoring for damage... "We want damage!! We want damage!! Yay!! GT5 has damage!! Finally we get damage!! I can't even finish a lap, how do you turn off the ***king damage!!"

 

[McLaren]

Let me tell you something, GTP. I'm not as critical about headlights as I am about damage. Headlight usage can really be seen in stuff like sportscar racing and rally racing. In terms of sportscar racing rules, amber lights are used by GT race cars, while the prototypes have the bright lights. The only other game I know where you can change light colors is "Tokyo Xtreme Racer 3." And I'm going on games I've previously played. In addition to light colors, if you get a fog light kit, you get extra lights to work with.

The best useage of headlights in a racing game that I know of is "Le Mans 24 Hours." Those things are BRIGHT! When you see a sportscar race on television, lights are usually pretty bright, so the lights are bright when darkness ensues the whole race track. I've been using "Le Mans 24 Hours" in a lot of my Gran Turismo discussions... all I can say is, if you don't have the game and you like Gran Turismo, get Le Mans 24 Hours. It may be an older game, but still a good one. But back on topic, I think Le Mans 24 Hours has some of the brighest light displays. Race an event in the rain or one of the two endurances in the game, and just look behind you to see those lights really shine at night. I think if PD can make something this bright, but functional, the gaming action would be great at night.

I would surely like to race Grand Valley, Deep Forest, Tokyo R246, and Le Mans at night. Autumn Ring Mini would be a nice sunset deal, as would El Capitan and Suzuka. For a weird twist, maybe Seattle should be raced in not rain- but snow! The track is technical with elevation changes, so a rally challenge would be nice on an existing course with snow or ice. And I agree. I think PD should try to come up with a time engine for all or most tracks. In addition to time, perhaps add some weather effects. Like in an Endurance Race, it's partly cloudy, then it rains, and EVERYONE dashes to the pits to change to Rain Tires. You dig my vibe, man?

Hey John, have you ever played LM24Hours with a wheel? Its a blast.
The game is wonderful, and I can see why you use it alot in your GT4 discussions.

IMO, that game got the whole LeMans 24 Hour scene dead on.
John, I'm about 80% sure you'll agree with me, but I think A.C.O. and Infogrames need to get back together and come back with a Le Mans 24 Hours 2 for the PS3.

 

[JohnBM01]

I hear you, McLaren F1GTR. I don't think Infogrames exist anymore, I think they are under a different name and all. But McLaren F1GTR, if you seen that E3 coverage of the PS3 game "Formula One," or whatever it's called... can you imagine a game as amazing-looking as Formula One, but with sportscar racing? Imagine racing cars such as the Jaguar XJR9, McLaren F1 GTR (cheap plug, I know. But it won Le Mans), Toyota GT-One, Nissan R390 GT1, Audi R8, Ferrari 333SP, and all in a game with incredible graphics and great handling? That would be killer!

I never raced Le Mans 24 Hours with a steering wheel, I'm afraid. However, since LM24H is an older game, there is one thing noticiable about the endurance racing. The textures don't really get darker. Usually when it's darker, you'll see darker textures on 3D environments and all, so blasting through a forest, everything looks darker. And when you see the buildings around Circuit de la Sarthe, if they don't have lights shining, you're probably not going to see that building. Also, the environment mapping isn't real in LM24H. But then, no one really took advantage of better technology in graphics and environments. I think the next Gran Turismo will have to have a believable time engine. I would like to see some clouds being generated while the sun moves from overhead into disappearing. So when the sun sets, imagine a wonderful sunset usually unacheivable from current PS2 technology.

For a lights story, here's how important lights can be to night racing. My brother took me out to Guadalupe River State Park a few miles away from San Antonio (congrats to the Spurs on their 2004-2005 NBA title, by the way). It was about 2 AM CDT when we found out the park closed for the night. Driving at night, we had our low beams on with deer running. When we turned on the high beams- DAMN! We could see pretty well at night! So, you have to get the light shine right for night racing. I love night racing. Either night racing or very, very late evening. And in terms of time cycles, apply them to different conditions. Like in tropical and desert settings, skies can be deep blue. That's all. I think I'm heading out. Carry on.

 

[McLaren]

I hear you John. That would sound fantastic. Shame though, Info is gone.
I am still in the middle of the 24Hour endurance of that game too.
In terms of racing on the course itself, Racing LeMans in LM24H Vs. Racing LeMans in GT4, imo, LM24H won hands down.

The sun coming up in that game makes for some beautiful racing scenery. And the racing endurance itself is much more realistic.
I can go with 25 laps without having to pit.

The game provides for some fun racing.
But anyways, back to the topic on hand, I think KY could learn somethings from LM24H.

 

[kikie]

As for the damage thing, you folks need to be careful what you wish for.
"We want damage!! We want damage!! Yay!! GT5 has damage!! Finally we get damage!!

There will be a damage on/off option. So damage won't be a problem. If you don't want it, tunr it off. Just like in GTR.

 

[Dave A]

As for the damage thing, you folks need to be careful what you wish for. If GT gets damage, it's going to be real damage.. none of this cheesy stuff like you get in TOCA or Forza. You won't be able to play bumpercars and only get some scratched paint like in TOCA. One mistake, and you're out of the race. AND you have to pay out the ass to get it fixed. And there won't be any "spectacular" crashes like in Burnout, either.. real crashes are mainly just "bam". And then it's over, in a tenth of a second.

We'll spend the next two years clamoring for damage... "We want damage!! We want damage!! Yay!! GT5 has damage!! Finally we get damage!! I can't even finish a lap, how do you turn off the ***king damage!!"

What makes you think it would be one mistake and race over. Nothing else in the GT series is that realistic, so why damage? If PD will com promise the physics to make it more accessible, it's logical they'd do the same with the damage. Besides, even if the damage is relistic I can get through 25-30+ laps with 45 car grids in GTR without losing a wheel or smashing up too hard. Yes it has happened but it's no regular occurence.

 

[Jedi2016]

All I'm saying is that most of the people that are hollering for damage don't really know exactly what it is they're asking for. I think we'll find that an inordinate number of the people currently complaining about lack of damage will play with it turned off.

 

[kikie]

All I'm saying is that most of the people that are hollering for damage don't really know exactly what it is they're asking for.

I know what I am asking for.

I think we'll find that an inordinate number of the people currently complaining about lack of damage will play with it turned off

I won't

 

[Dave A]

All I'm saying is that most of the people that are hollering for damage don't really know exactly what it is they're asking for. I think we'll find that an inordinate number of the people currently complaining about lack of damage will play with it turned off.

I think most of the people that want damage are aware of Race driver 2 and what it'd be like to improve on that. Like I said, don't expect GT5 to have damage so sensitive that if you hit a curb wrong you've lost you're tyre, the GT series is deliberately accesible, they won't change that by doing 100% relistic damage.

 

[Jedi2016]

What's changed lately? The last time I brought this up (just prior to GT4's release), everyone agreed with me.

I'm not saying that GT shouldn't have damage, I'm definitely in the camp that says it should. I'm just saying that people shouldn't expect the same kind of "video game" damage that current games give us. If that sort of thing was what KY wanted, it would be in the game already.

 

[Dave A]

No, he wants it to be very graphic, not generic. He wants the car to be able to break into thousands of peices, that doesn't mean he wants that to happen easily. The damage can look real, it can be very impressive, but still more forgiving that real life which is what I think GT5's will be. The PS2 couldn't handle damage in GT4, thats why he didn't do it.

 

[Laorin]

All I'm saying is that most of the people that are hollering for damage don't really know exactly what it is they're asking for. I think we'll find that an inordinate number of the people currently complaining about lack of damage will play with it turned off.

Yup, that's just about what I said in another thread. It's going to be hilarious hearing everyone gripe about it.

 

[JohnBM01]

Like I was saying in the past, I think the damage should be realistic, but not realistic to the point where it is virtually impossible to win. I don't want to see any Burnout-style overhyping of damage. Like, do you buy a Burnout game for racing? Hell no. Most people want to smash cars beyond belief, since some people don't really care about racing. Damage is never fun, and don't give me that "it's just a game" hullabaloo. You don't drive your car or truck into a bus or 18-wheeler and cause a big wreck, do you? Of course you wouldn't. Do you dream of causing wrecks in a racing game and not really care about the race at hand? Plus, you'll probably want to race the Nurburgring Nordschleife and beat up your car as much as you can. Then have to pay for all of it. Remember, the more severe the damage, the more that's going out of your GT balance. And let's say the next GT has no loading game data and the same switchable Autosave deal. What then? Play it safe, or show little respect for your car?

That's been the issue for me. Damage is okay, but only as long as it isn't overhyped and as long as car damage is more important than the actual game. GT is about racing, not 'recking. Forza is about racing, not 'recking. Think things through. I never liked damage, probably never will. I won't cry if I can't wreck my Toyota MKIV Supra around Tokyo R246. But I think PD will do their best to keep things in the interest of racing and not wrecking. Only thing that waits is video or pictoral proof of a GT5-modeled car being damaged or even destroyed.