Devastating Demolition of Moore's Major Points in, F9/11

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Give me an example of bush telling an outright lie...say for instance like a" I did not have sex with that woman " type of lie . please do not use " we are invading iraq because saddam has WOMD " as an example because if someone bases a decision on the best information his advisors give him he is not a liar. I doubt if Clintons advisors told him after his hummer he should go commit perjury and get on T.V. and tell everyone that particular lie.
 
Most of the "lies" Bush tells are made intentionally hard to pin on him. He avoids the press and public and leaves the speaking instead to his cohorts, Rice, Rumsfeld, Fliecher, Powell, Chaney. When he does talk politics, he is reciting a script and he rarely appears to have a good grasp of what he is talking about. When the **** finally hits the fan one of his aides takes the blame and he gets off on his ignorance plea. Either he is a liar (by knowingly supporting lies) or just a poor leader (by never knowing whats going on). Take your pick.
 
wellyrn
Most of the "lies" Bush tells are made intentionally hard to pin on him.
Or in other words, wellyrn can't prove Bush's "lies".

Thanks for the laugh, wellyrn. 👍

Can you post any facts, wellyrn?
 
At least Clinton lies about his personal sex life were funny...

It's not personal anymore when you're on the stand for sexual harassment. All of the sudden your personal life is what establishes a pattern of behavior. It's definitley not personal after it becomes perjury.
 
danoff
It's not personal anymore when you're on the stand for sexual harassment. All of the sudden your personal life is what establishes a pattern of behavior. It's definitley not personal after it becomes perjury.
This is Sexual harassment? Yes he lied about all that (Duh...), but it's still about its personal sexual life.

I'm surprised as a libertarian you're not saying that the government shouldn't interfere with his personal choices, especially if they did that on mutual consent? Sleeping with a secretary, and worst yet, cheating on your wife may not be the best thing to do, but that's harmless IMO compared to the ability to buy innofensive, innanimate objects such as an automatic rifle.
 
The sexual harassment case was paula jones right? I don't remember her name. Anyway the lewinsky case was to be an establishment of a pattern of behavior. Clinton denied anything happened with lewinsky in order to prevent the prosecution from showing a pattern of behavior. In the end he was not convicted of harassment. But then it turns out that he did have an affair with lewinsky. which means he perjured himself to get out of sexual harassment charges.

So they impeached him.
 
Viper Zero
1. Or in other words, wellyrn can't prove Bush's "lies".


2. Can you post any facts, wellyrn?


I would like to second both the statement and the question. Also i'm waiting for a reply to my post wellyrn......
 
danoff
The sexual harassment case was paula jones right? I don't remember her name. Anyway the lewinsky case was to be an establishment of a pattern of behavior. Clinton denied anything happened with lewinsky in order to prevent the prosecution from showing a pattern of behavior. In the end he was not convicted of harassment. But then it turns out that he did have an affair with lewinsky. which means he perjured himself to get out of sexual harassment charges.

So they impeached him.
Granted what he did with with Paula Jones, if it's as she described it, was wrong. That's isn't much IMO in comparaison of
Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." And, "[Saddam Hussein is] a threat because he is dealing with al Qaeda."
Since propaganda sites are in currently in vogue, you also can pick any one of these. (Not personnal lies, but lies from his administration, for which I care a bit more).
 
Sexual harrassment is a serious issue as is perjury. I'm not willing to brush aside the fact that clinton couldn't abide by our laws while he was in office (as governor).

As for your quote. Those are not really lies. Iraq did possess some of the most dangerous weapons known to man and Saddam did deal with Al Queda. However, I don't agree with the opinion that that makes him a threat directly. I does make him a threat indirectly in that he was showing the world that the US and UN will not enforce their policies - but I don't think that was what Bush was talking about.
 
i hope you will answer my questions eventually but i will clarify for you anyway because im such a great guy.

Of course many, many things George Bush has said have not been true. For most people that would be considered a lie. Unfortunately Bush has made himself bullet proof because 1) He is reciting second hand information. 2) People think he's stupid bordering on retarded. 3) His uncommon public speaches are carefully worded

What does this mean? Take the weapons of mass destruction. There are none, period. There may have been at some time but that doesn't make up the burden of proof.

Powell and Cheney make all the strong claims to raise the issue to the public.

-"...we now know that Saddam has resumed his efforts to acquire nuclear weapons." uh oh!

-"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction" UH OH!!! DOES THAT MEAN HE HAS NUKES!?

-"There is no doubt that he has chemical weapons stocks…" ****... no doubt about it.


Bush clearly shows support but is not clear in any actual assertions.

"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons" were used, nice one W. They could be a progresive chain of frozen yogourt stands today and this would still be true.

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent." "our officials". Ole! 500 tons? show us 1 gram...

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have." ooohhh mysterious sources tell us. what do YOU think George?

"We'll find them. It'll be a matter of time to do so." sure you will, sure you will...

Now that people are having doubts who is to blame? Anyone but Bush. Either he is a liar (by knowingly supporting lies) or just a poor leader (by never knowing whats going on). So please tell me Viper and Chevy... which is it?
 
wellyrn
-"...we now know that Saddam has resumed his efforts to acquire nuclear weapons." uh oh!
Iraq did want nuclear weapons. Iraq was not able to create the Uranium needed for them, so they asked around the neighborhood for some...

President Bush has been called a — "liar" for saying last year that, according to British intelligence officers, Saddam Hussein was seeking to buy uranium from Africa. But an investigation by the British government has now found that British intelligence officers were right to make the claim.

A report on the investigation, expected to be released next week, concludes that the claim was both reasonable and consistent with British intelligence, which indicates that the African country of Niger negotiated with Iraq to sell it refined uranium.

However, according to the Financial Times, the investigation did find British Prime Minister Tony Blair's claim that Saddam could deploy chemical weapons within 45 minutes was inadequately supported by intelligence. (Fox News)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,125195,00.html


wellyrn
-"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction" UH OH!!! DOES THAT MEAN HE HAS NUKES!?
Iraq never had nuclear weapons, no one said he did. Although, Iraq was very interested in acquiring them. (read above)

wellyrn
-"There is no doubt that he has chemical weapons stocks…" ****... no doubt about it.
Yes, and we found some.

"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the chief military spokesman in Iraq, told reporters in Baghdad. "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy."

"Everybody knew Saddam had chemical weapons, the question was, where did they go. Unfortunately, everybody jumped on the offramp and said 'well, because we didn't find them, he didn't have them,'" said Fox News military analyst Lt. Gen. Tom McInerney.
Gazi George, a former Iraqi nuclear scientist under Saddam's regime, told Fox News he believes many similar weapons stockpiled by the former regime were either buried underground or transported to Syria. He noted that the airport where the device was detonated is on the way to Baghdad from the Syrian border.

I highly recommend you read this article in particular, wellyrn:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C120137%2C00.html

wellyrn
Bush clearly shows support but is not clear in any actual assertions.

"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons" were used, nice one W. They could be a progresive chain of frozen yogourt stands today and this would still be true.
Ask the thousands and thousands of dead Kurds if Iraq was expanding their facilities for biological weapons. List of known Iraqi weapon facilities:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/facility/

wellyrn
"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent." "our officials". Ole! 500 tons? show us 1 gram...
You read that paragraph wrong. Iraq had the materials to make those agents. It didn't say Iraq actually made the agents from the materials, so you can't have one gram of anything if you never made it.

But, obviously, Saddam made at least some. Several hundred Sarin artillery shells and other agents. Read the second article.

wellyrn
""We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have." ooohhh mysterious sources tell us. what do YOU think George?
Saddam had no problems using chemical weapons in Kuwait, Israel, or the Kurds in north Iraq. I'm sure he would had no problem using them on the American Infidels.

wellyrn
"We'll find them. It'll be a matter of time to do so." sure you will, sure you will...
The UN said they had them, the British said they had them, the Russians said they had them, the Kurds definitely knew they had them, Bill Clinton said they had them, John Kerry said they had them... Should I keep going?

Gazi George, a former Iraqi nuclear scientist under Saddam's regime, told Fox News he believes many similar weapons stockpiled by the former regime were either buried underground or transported to Syria. He noted that the airport where the device was detonated is on the way to Baghdad from the Syrian border.
George said the finding likely will be the first in a series of discoveries of such weapons.

"Saddam is the type who will not store those materials in a military warehouse. He's gonna store them either underground, or, as I said, lots of them have gone west to Syria and are being brought back with the insurgencies," George told Fox News. "It is difficult to look in areas that are not obvious to the military's eyes.

"I'm sure they're going to find more once time passes," he continued, saying one year is not enough for the survey group or the military to find the weapons.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C120137%2C00.html

wellyrn
Anyone but Bush.
I hope the Liberals don't really believe in that. John Kerry voted for the war, John Edwards voted for it, he even said he would attack Iraq if the UN would not enforce their resolutions. :gasp: Just like President Bush!

The only thing Kerry would have done differently than Bush would have been to wait longer for UN inspectors to be continually be denied access by Saddam's regime and let more people die under Saddam's dictatorship. Great job, John Kerry! :rolleyes:



I proved you wrong on every statement with facts, wellyrn. Try to use some next time.
 
I really don't mean to break your balls about this but why fox news only ? not that it means anything at all but because this whole bag of worms is so partisan it s great to have more than one sourse no matter how true it is, just look around at all the different ways the same news is " reported " . and more people should address the fact that EVERYBODY thats running for president at this time besides nader is on record as VOTING for the war in Iraq. So what , they would like to kill the terrorist in a different way...How do you justify your support for the other guy if you believe the war is WRONG ? WTF ? Am I missing something ?
 
Iraq seeked Uranium from Africa

Fox News Article: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,125195,00.html

CNN equivalent: Failed to report




Sarin, Mustard Gas found in Iraq

Fox News Article: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C120137%2C00.html

CNN equivalent: Reported a week after the event http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/25/iraq.main/index.html




As you can see, it's very hard to be fair and balanced, if the other side refuses to report because it goes against their 'agenda'.

I don't know how you could vote for Kerry if you disagree with the war. First he voted for the war, now he says he's against it. If I was a Democrat, I would be soooo confused right now!

If you're a tree hugger and didn't like liberating the Iraqi people, I suppose you could vote for Nader. But, then again, a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush.
 
*sigh* I just gave you a list of quotes. I did't ask you to prove anything (and you didn't).

Some aluminum tubes, a laboratory trailer, a single chemical round, alleged negotions. None of that comes close to what they told us before the war. Of course people started thinking Saddam had "stockpiles of chemical weapons" and "there is no doubt he has WMD" when thats what they told us.

Well its pretty obvious that they had them 12 years ago the question is did they have them 2 years ago? 1 round isn't a stockpile and there is no way to tell if it has anything to do with Saddam Hussien.

I didn't read it wrong. Where are the materials? a gram or all of 500 tons worth.

For the bush quotes i was showing how he words it carefully so it's not him lying its unnamed "sources" and "officials". You avoid this. Instead you argueably account for 1/2 of the picture. Maybe there are a couple WMD but no link to Saddam. They could have come from anywhere. Saddam was already out of power by the time these illegal weapons supposedly started being used by insurgents.

All the WMD claims are no more or less accurate than my claim (quote me if you like): There is no doubt that George W. Bush has a stockpile of cocaine and german porno.

Now go search his house without a warrant. Don't worry, if you don't find it you can say he buried his stash somewhere in the country or possibly outside the country. If any coke or "Dieter Does Danschenburg" videos show up in the USA in the following year and a half we will know that he is guilty, right?
 
The short sighted view is that the things Bush claimed cannot be proven to be lies (so don't claim they are).

The far sighted view is that WMD's were not necessary to justify the war so who cares?

They could find underground stockpiles of chemical weapons packed in shells and you would find a way not to eat your words and I wouldn't be surprised and wouldn't think any differently about the war.

If they found out without a doubt that Iraq had disposed of all of its WMDs before we invaded it wouldn't change my stand. When you've agreed to let the UN inspect in order to get them to let you off the hook for invading a country (kuwait), you'd better be real careful to live up to those terms.
 
If they find a large stockpile of ready to use chemical munitions that are property of Saddam Hussiens former Iraq government then i would accept that the case they made for war was legitimate.

I find the selective respect of the UN a bit hypocritical as an arguement for war. If you are trying to enforce a UN resolution it doesn't make much sense that you openly defy the UN to do so.

Those were the 2 arguements that the US gave before the war. They have since changed thier stance to removing a Dictator and doing a favor for Iraqis. I think if you are going to invade someone it's a good idea to know why ahead of time.

I wonder why Kerry and anyone else would be confused?

There is always a small chance repeatedly getting the facts wrong and at the same time forwarding your agenda could be accidental but most of the world is sick of it happening. "Lies" or not, it is dishonest and unacceptable behavior.

It's strange that when there is controversy around a film that only hurts the pride of a few self rightous, self serving, old money pricks you feel the need to expose Michael Moores agenda and deception. When it comes to controversy that involves billions of dollars, thousands of innocent peoples lives and government corruption you desperately want to believe its all just a coincidence.
 
If they find a large stockpile of ready to use chemical munitions that are property of Saddam Hussiens former Iraq government then i would accept that the case they made for war was legitimate.

Funny that it would change your mind and not mine.

I find the selective respect of the UN a bit hypocritical as an arguement for war. If you are trying to enforce a UN resolution it doesn't make much sense that you openly defy the UN to do so.

Name the UN resolution we defied.

Those were the 2 arguements that the US gave before the war. They have since changed thier stance to removing a Dictator and doing a favor for Iraqis. I think if you are going to invade someone it's a good idea to know why ahead of time.

The argument was that Iraq had violated UN resolutions for 10 years, which it had.

It's strange that when there is controversy around a film that only hurts the pride of a few self rightous, self serving, old money pricks you feel the need to expose Michael Moores agenda and deception. When it comes to controversy that involves billions of dollars, thousands of innocent peoples lives and government corruption you desperately want to believe its all just a coincidence.

You're mischaracterizing people's problems with this misleading, dishonest film.
 
Even if you belive theres only a grain of truth in Moores film, its pretty clear where bushes loyalties lie. How can he invade Afganistan and Iraq under the pretence that they are 'evil regimes' whos people need liberating - when he is so far up the arse of the worlds biggest violator of human rights - Saudi Arabia. Why is he licking the Saudi Govenments ass? one word - OIL The fact that Iraq is/was Saudis greatest enemy and threat would kind of point to the real reason for the Iraqi invasion.
 
ledhed
Star commision investigated whitwater and anything and anybody they could to hang Clinton..it was a disgrace and Star should have been disbarred for all the leaks and slander he let go, an impartial person could see the guy had a vendetta , the guy should have recused himself, but instead he pressed ahead on the most flimsy excuses for evidence and innuendo. he tried witness intimidation and kept the so called commision going far longer than justified, it was a plainly partisan republican attempted lynching of a President they felt unworthy of defeating there guy..it was bogus a collosal waste of money and transparent to all but the most jaded syncopants of the far right...much like Michael Moore to the left without the umbrella protection of the courts. Moore is just ruining the reputations of honest journalist by calling his comedy a documentry.

Very good point. By challenging the complete U.S. media for 'not doing their job properly', Moore has invited his claims to be researched thoroughly and should have known better. But perhaps he believes that like the Star investigation, that will eventually uncover a Lewinsky.

The Newsweek article at any rate shows me that despite the questionable journalism in Moore's film, it achieves that what Moore usually seems out to achieve - get people thinking about stuff:

"None of this is to suggest that there aren’t legitimate questions that deserve to be asked about the influence that secretive firms like Carlyle have in Washington—not to mention the Saudis themselves (an issue that has been taken up repeatedly in our weekly Terror Watch columns.) Nor are we trying to say that “Fahrenheit 9/11” isn’t a powerful and effective movie that raises a host of legitimate issues about President Bush’s response to the September 11 attacks, the climate of fear engendered by the war on terror and, most importantly, about the wisdom and horrific human toll of the war in Iraq."
 
Michael Moore, who has made a boatload of money from F 911, has invited people to freely download and distribute the movie as long as it's not for profit.

You should be able to find a link to it from www.moorewatch.com ; that way everybody like danoff and I who want to see it for ourselves without giving Moore any money can do so.
 
"The biggest crime in American history and planes are grounded. Yet the House of Saud gets a safe package home"

The article makes very interesting reading. Here are a few more quotes:

"America was paralysed by terror, and for 48 hours, virtually no one could fly. No one, that is, except for the Saudis."

"But Osama bin Laden was Saudi, of course, and he was not just any Saudi. The Bin Ladens were one of a handful of extremely wealthy families that were so close to the House of Saud that they effectively acted as extensions of the royal family."

"A senior member of the Washington diplomatic corps, Bandar had played racquetball with Secretary of State Colin Powell in the late Seventies. He had run covert operations for the late CIA director Bill Casey that were so hush-hush they were kept secret even from President Ronald Reagan. He was the man who had stashed away 30 locked attaché cases that held some of the deepest secrets in the intelligence world. And for two decades, Bandar had built an intimate personal relationship with the Bush family that went far beyond a mere political friendship."​

For those of you who don't follow the link, these quotes are excerpts from 'House of Bush, House of Saud' by Craig Unger.
 
I just hope you realize there is no link between the House of Saud and Osama, there hasn't been for a while. He was excomunicated from the Family years ago.
 
87chevy
I just hope you realize there is no link between the House of Saud and Osama, there hasn't been for a while.
So I take it there was a link at some time then?

There are so many links with the Bin Ladens and the House of Saud. That article proves it.

"How is it possible that Saudis were allowed to fly, even when all of America, FBI agents included, was grounded."​
If I was American I would be annoyed to say the least that these Saudis had the right to fly:

"Former vice-president Al Gore was stranded in Austria because his flight to the United States was cancelled. Former president Bill Clinton was stuck in Australia."​
I'm sure Gore and Clinton were enjoying their extended time in Austria and Australia while planes picked up Bin Ladens (Ladins) all across the country ... Los Angeles/Florida/ Washington/Boston.
 
There was a connection at one time, because Bin Laden was physically born into the family. However, he went extremist, and there was a mutual severence of connection years ago.
 
so you believe that no one else but the Bin Ladens could fly and that planes went all over to pick them up and fly them out . Oh and you also believe everything in that article without checking other sources. I suggest you look a little further into it to discover how false that is . Its almost like the whole discussion has degenerated into a mantra with some hoping on both sides of the issue that if they keep repeating the same crap over and over it will somehow become the truth.
TRY ASKING THIS ; did the US government do whatever they could at the time to prevent the attacks ?
If you think they did not . ask what has to be done to prevent this type of attack in the future ?
Then decide who among your choices to vote for, represents your feelings on the subject the closest and research that persons opinions on other things you care about along with the party he represents.
THEN GO VOTE FOR THAT ONE.
Who gives a flying rat fart if some arabs left the country ? Hows that going to improve the unemployment situation , affect social security or keep MFKRS from crashing planes into our citys or otherwise blowing up our people ?
Find something a bit more relevant to worry about.
 
> TRY ASKING THIS ; did the US government do whatever they could at the time to prevent the attacks ?

No.

> Who gives a flying rat fart if some arabs left the country?

Obviously not you!

> Find something a bit more relevant to worry about.

I'm not worrying.
 
speaking about an adgenda..I wonder why Sandra Bergers theft problems are being buried in most news reports..GOD HELP THE REPUBLICAN THAT EVER DID SOMETHING REMOTELY SIMILAR. Trumpets would be blowing , demands for congressional hearings would be flying and Michael Moore would have a new movie Idea...but hey its no big deal if classified documents critical of a former democratic PRESIDENT are stolen by a former NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR...its a "mistake" and the fact that these same documents are destroyed are an "error in judgement" and the fact that the Kerry campaign brought up the same issues that the documents addressed is a "coincidence" And he wasnt stuffing them in his pants he was putting them in his pocket...bwahahahaha ...friggin impartial media my ass.
 
> TRY ASKING THIS ; did the US government do whatever they could at the time to prevent the attacks ?

Think about what it would take to answer that question with a yes... I don't want to live in that country.
 
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