Disappointed - But Optimistic!

[twitcher]

The movie industry, the music industry, the art industry, the performing arts industry. All of those industries, just like the video game industry are entirely subjective. One person can be happy with what they see, hear, feel and yet another can be completely unhappy with it. What bothers you about this game or that game won't bother another person one jot.

Fair point...but if you go to a movie and it randomly stutters to 20 fps, the sound quality and mix is completely off, it doesn't matter what your subjective view of the artistic aspect of the film is, in the context of "did the film work".

Two people can watch a play, and have different interpretations and opinions of what they watch. But if one of the stage lights comes crashing down, or a performer completely forgets their lines and stands there going "umm, umm, umm, umm, umm, umm," that doesn't really have much to do with the subjective artistic nature of the play.

If you want to approach a racing sim as having a mostly artistic nature, I suppose that's up to you. However, I would argue that the physics, graphics, sound, those are the "artistic" things that can be subjective (their accuracy being subjective), but the architecture of the operating framework that the physics engine, graphics engine, etc operates within - that's akin to the stage design and functionality.

Think of it this way.

Physics/sound/graphics - artistic message of the play, the acting, costume design.

PS4 - theatre

Menues and functionality of the game - the set.

The theatre is not responsible for designing and operating the set - that falls on the production company.

It doesn't matter what the artistic message is, how convincing the acting is, or how beautiful the costumes are; if the set doesn't function at the level necessary for the show to take place. Fact is, the set operation should be so incredibly smooth that people don't even know it's happening, they're completely engulfed by the artistic display.

That's not PCARS though. The set design for PCARS is grating, glaring, always making its poor performance known. The lack of performance from the functionality of the set is actually taking away from the artistic aspects.

Perhaps a bit of a wierd analogy, but basically my point is, while yes there are thinngs about a video game that are subjective, basic functionality is not really one of them.

 

[PzR Slim]

Fair point...but if you go to a movie and it randomly stutters to 20 fps, the sound quality and mix is completely off, it doesn't matter what your subjective view of the artistic aspect of the film is, in the context of "did the film work".

Two people can watch a play, and have different interpretations and opinions of what they watch. But if one of the stage lights comes crashing down, or a performer completely forgets their lines and stands there going "umm, umm, umm, umm, umm, umm," that doesn't really have much to do with the subjective artistic nature of the play.

If you want to approach a racing sim as having a mostly artistic nature, I suppose that's up to you. However, I would argue that the physics, graphics, sound, those are the "artistic" things that can be subjective (their accuracy being subjective), but the architecture of the operating framework that the physics engine, graphics engine, etc operates within - that's akin to the stage design and functionality.

Think of it this way.

Physics/sound/graphics - artistic message of the play, the acting, costume design.

PS4 - theatre

Menues and functionality of the game - the set.

The theatre is not responsible for designing and operating the set - that falls on the production company.

It doesn't matter what the artistic message is, how convincing the acting is, or how beautiful the costumes are; if the set doesn't function at the level necessary for the show to take place. Fact is, the set operation should be so incredibly smooth that people don't even know it's happening, they're completely engulfed by the artistic display.

That's not PCARS though. The set design for PCARS is grating, glaring, always making its poor performance known. The lack of performance from the functionality of the set is actually taking away from the artistic aspects.

Perhaps a bit of a wierd analogy, but basically my point is, while yes there are thinngs about a video game that are subjective, basic functionality is not really one of them.

And yet some people will not bother one iota about a failure of the set if they are particularly enamoured with the performance of the cast. Or the demo tape of a band who couldn't afford to have it produced properly, some will enjoy the music that much that the low productions values will be insignificant. Or pretty much any time you go and watch a band live, the quality of the music and singing is not a patch on the quality you get from a well produced studio recording, however, that doesn't matter because the live aspect of it enjoyed with a group of other fans more than makes up for the lack of quality in the music.

And that's how I feel about PC2, yes there are some issues, some bother me, some don't but the overall experience of playing the game is, for me, second to none when it comes to the representation of motorcar racing. It's got soul, you can tell the team that put it together have a great deal of passion for motorsport.

And in all those instances it comes down to your subject experience, if that subjective experience is good enough, some people will not be affected by the objective difficulties.

GTS is a perfect example, looking at it objectively it a very polished well put together game with very little to pick fault with. However, subjectively, sat in my rig steering wheel in hand it's not a patch on what I feel or experience when I play PC2.

 

[Harry Freq]

GPU is being bottlenecked by the CPU

Standard PS4 is 1.6ghz
PS4 Pro is 2.1ghz <--- costing GPU power

Come on!?!?! Faster CPU & double the GPU power than the PS4 does not = Worse than PCars 1.

 

[twitcher]

And yet some people will not bother one iota about a failure of the set if they are particularly enamoured with the performance of the cast. Or the demo tape of a band who couldn't afford to have it produced properly, some will enjoy the music that much that the low productions values will be insignificant. Or pretty much any time you go and watch a band live, the quality of the music and singing is not a patch on the quality you get from a well produced studio recording, however, that doesn't matter because the live aspect of it enjoyed with a group of other fans more than makes up for the lack of quality in the music.

And that's how I feel about PC2, yes there are some issues, some bother me, some don't but the overall experience of playing the game is, for me, second to none when it comes to the representation of motorcar racing. It's got soul, you can tell the team that put it together have a great deal of passion for motorsport.

And in all those instances it comes down to your subject experience, if that subjective experience is good enough, some people will not be affected by the objective difficulties.

GTS is a perfect example, looking at it objectively it a very polished well put together game with very little to pick fault with. However, subjectively, sat in my rig steering wheel in hand it's not a patch on what I feel or experience when I play PC2.

Playing PC2, how do you feel sat in your rig steering wheel in hand, when the game crashes to a blue screen?

How do you feel when you spend 6 hours working on a base tune, take it online, spend 1/2 hour qualifying for a race, and have the game load completely wrong and unrealistic tire pressures for the race?

How do you feel when you spend the better part of an hour searching for a good, non-sketchy, decently setup and run lobby, do 15-30 minutes of qualifying, lead the race for 9/10 laps, only to disco on the last lap, costing you 50 points on your license.

Repeat that cycle for 100 hours of gameplay, and tell me you can still see past the flaws in the architecture to the artistic beauty that is there (and don't get me wrong, when the game works, like in a solo offline private test session, it's pretty great). If, after 100 hours of dealing with that....aaaand seeing several issues recurring from PC1 which were never ever fixed, ranging from minor (transmission gear ratios showing very odd and inconsistent numbers in the tuning menu) to major (land mines!!), you still have the same cheery attitude, then you sir, have thicker skin than I.

 

[bnight]

Repeat that cycle for 100 hours of gameplay, and tell me you can still see past the flaws in the architecture to the artistic beauty that is there (and don't get me wrong, when the game works, like in a solo offline private test session, it's pretty great). If, after 100 hours of dealing with that....aaaand seeing several issues recurring from PC1 which were never ever fixed, ranging from minor (transmission gear ratios showing very odd and inconsistent numbers in the tuning menu) to major (land mines!!), you still have the same cheery attitude, then you sir, have thicker skin than I.

To be fair I think you expect more than it's technically possible from PCars game. Have in mind that SMS are not EA so they don't have unlimited funds. Not sure if you ever worked in a software development company but developing software is not exactly making a Big Mac Even though a lot of McDonalds former employees work in the software development industry. if you don't like the game that much why bother playing it or commenting about it ? Why don't you just switch to something you like ?

 

[Harry Freq]

To be fair I think you expect more than it's technically possible from PCars game. Have in mind that SMS are not EA so they don't have unlimited funds. Not sure if you ever worked in a software development company but developing software is not exactly making a Big Mac Even though a lot of McDonalds former employees work in the software development industry. if you don't like the game that much why bother playing it or commenting about it ? Why don't you just switch to something you like ?

They did have EA behind them at one point though and made two of the worst handling sims of all time.

 

[PzR Slim]

Playing PC2, how do you feel sat in your rig steering wheel in hand, when the game crashes to a blue screen? Never happened to me however I imagine it would feel like it does in every other game I have played that it has happened to me in.

How do you feel when you spend 6 hours working on a base tune, take it online, spend 1/2 hour qualifying for a race, and have the game load completely wrong and unrealistic tire pressures for the race? Never happened to me so I wouldn't know.

How do you feel when you spend the better part of an hour searching for a good, non-sketchy, decently setup and run lobby, do 15-30 minutes of qualifying, lead the race for 9/10 laps, only to disco on the last lap, costing you 50 points on your license. Never happened to me however I imagine it would feel like it does in every other game I have played that it has happened to me in. I'm sure it wouldn't feel as bad as it does in GTS when PD's server goes down and you can do nothing and lose the last however many hours of what you have done.

Repeat that cycle for 100 hours of gameplay, and tell me you can still see past the flaws in the architecture to the artistic beauty that is there (and don't get me wrong, when the game works, like in a solo offline private test session, it's pretty great). If, after 100 hours of dealing with that....aaaand seeing several issues recurring from PC1 which were never ever fixed, ranging from minor (transmission gear ratios showing very odd and inconsistent numbers in the tuning menu) to major (land mines!!), you still have the same cheery attitude, then you sir, have thicker skin than I.

I've played the game for many hours and seen very few problems and problems I have seen I haven't let bother me because fundamentally the sensation of racing a car round a track in this game is the best I have experienced in any game I have played.

They did have EA behind them at one point though and made two of the worst handling sims of all time.

Maybe EA had something to do with that 💡

 

[Harry Freq]

Maybe EA had something to do with that 💡

You think EA said to Ian "we want 2 games were the handling is awful here are millions to make those two games"?

 

[BrandonW77]

You think EA said to Ian "we want 2 games were the handling is awful here are millions to make those two games"?

Well, yeah, kinda. It's a popular belief in the gaming industry that if you make a racing game too realistic then casuals will find it too difficult and give up on it. So they ask Ian to make a flashy game that the average 9 year old with a controller can pick up and play which usually means the handling is going to be simplified and awful, but it will sell millions of copies and rake in the cash.

 

[Harry Freq]

Well, yeah, kinda. It's a popular belief in the gaming industry that if you make a racing game too realistic then casuals will find it too difficult and give up on it. So they ask Ian to make a flashy game that the average 9 year old with a controller can pick up and play which usually means the handling is going to be simplified and awful, but it will sell millions of copies and rake in the cash.

But the 9 year old couldnt play it because the handling was that poor especially compared to other arcade titles or sims. It literally did not make sense to the arcade racer or the sim racer and no matter how you try to justify that really strange handling model no one liked it be it 9 year olds or 99 years olds. GT 5 and 6 handled well for casuals, So did Forza and games like Split Second, Blur etc etc Shift was just down right weird and i very much doubt EA wanted that.

 

[Bealdor]

But the 9 year old couldnt play it because the handling was that poor especially compared to other arcade titles or sims. It literally did not make sense to the arcade racer or the sim racer and no matter how you try to justify that really strange handling model no one liked it be it 9 year olds or 99 years olds. GT 5 and 6 handled well for casuals, So did Forza and games like Split Second, Blur etc etc Shift was just down right weird and i very much doubt EA wanted that.

But if nobody liked it, why did the Shift franchise sell more than 5 million copies?

Btw. SMS wanted to release a patch for Shift 2 that should address handling and various other issues but EA said no.

 

[Harry Freq]

But if nobody liked it, why did the Shift franchise sell more than 5 million copies?

Btw. SMS wanted to release a patch for Shift 2 that should address handling and various other issues but EA said no.

People buy games then discover they dont like them. I must of bought hundreds over the years that turned out i didnt like. Also the PR was amazing for Shift and it really did look like the best racing game to date from videos and previews etc etc i honestly thought it was going to be the one game to beat GT & Forza on consoles then you took the car onto the track......It's not like an SMS game to need a patch to fix things is it

 

[BrandonW77]

People buy games then discover they dont like them. I must of bought hundreds over the years that turned out i didnt like. Also the PR was amazing for Shift and it really did look like the best racing game to date from videos and previews etc etc i honestly thought it was going to be the one game to beat GT & Forza on consoles then you took the car onto the track......It's not like an SMS game to need a patch to fix things is it

There's 3.7 million NFS Shift videos on YouTube, several have been uploaded today and there's even someone live streaming it this very moment. I doubt people would bother making videos of or live streaming a game they don't like or can't control.

 

[Harry Freq]

There's 3.7 million NFS Shift videos on YouTube, several have been uploaded today and there's even someone live streaming it this very moment. I doubt people would bother making videos of or live streaming a game they don't like or can't control.

Your video does not work.

You could control it i never said once it was uncontrollable i said it was awful and was a very strange handling model that didnt suit an arcade style game or a sim style game (no racing game has or will ever handle like Shift again) Happy for you you loved it but i bet if we trawled through these forums or other forums for Shift posts my view would be validated and most would have issuies with how it handles or handled of course some people may of thought it was the best handling sim of all time but those are a minority.

 

[BrandonW77]

You could control it i never said once it was uncontrollable

Uh, yeah you did, you said a 9 year old couldn't play it because the handling was so poor.

Happy for you you loved it

As far as I'm aware I never really played the game. I just take issue with people thinking their opinion represents everyone's opinion. You didn't like it, that's fine, but plenty of people did. I had a few buddies that loved the Shift games and played them a lot, but when I put them in my racing rig with Gran Turismo they complained it was too hard and didn't like it.

 

[Harry Freq]

Uh, yeah you did, you said a 9 year old couldn't play it because the handling was so poor.

View attachment 684312



As far as I'm aware I never really played the game. I just take issue with people thinking their opinion represents everyone's opinion. You didn't like it, that's fine, but plenty of people did. I had a few buddies that loved the Shift games and played them a lot, but when I put them in my racing rig with Gran Turismo they complained it was too hard and didn't like it.

Yeah poor not uncontrollable! Difference being 9 year olds can play and be good at racing games but most wouldnt be with Shifts poor handling model which i doubt EA asked for which someone said they did.

Maybe you should go out and buy and play it before talking about it so much.

I just typed need for speed shift handling into google and look what the results are....Have a read an educate yourself...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=......0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.72....0.arQo_hgfkg0

The very first result - "
The worst handling of ANY racing game! - Need for Speed: Shift ..."

and i thought the Sony/PD Defence Force were something else...

 

[BrandonW77]

Yeah poor not uncontrollable! Difference being 9 year olds can play and be good at racing games but most wouldnt be with Shifts poor handling model which i doubt EA asked for which someone said they did.

Maybe you should go out and buy and play it before talking about it so much.

I just typed need for speed shift handling into google and look what the results are....Have a read an educate yourself...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=......0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.72....0.arQo_hgfkg0

The very first result - "
The worst handling of ANY racing game! - Need for Speed: Shift ..."

and i thought the Sony/PD Defence Force were something else...

Don't get it twisted mate. I wasn't defending the game or SMS, I was criticizing your "I know everything and my opinion is the only one that counts" attitude

 

[Double Ayyys]

Come on!?!?! Faster CPU & double the GPU power than the PS4 does not = Worse than PCars 1.

pCars2 physics code is consuming more than pCars1

And on the pro it's trying to output 4 times the graphical level. A slight increase in processing power cannot make up for the extra demand.

 

[chopz]

I will never pre-order a game ever again. I got sucked in on PC2, never again. Thank goodness I only bought the base game.

Here's the truth, you can't play PC2 for more than 10 minutes and not find multiple bugs. This should dispel the myth that its just some people.

- online stuttering
- car setups and loading
- absurd default tunes
- wet weather AI

The list is about 200 items deep.

 

[Harry Freq]

Don't get it twisted mate. I wasn't defending the game or SMS, I was criticizing your "I know everything and my opinion is the only one that counts" attitude

I wasnt basing it solely on my views i remember how awful the handling was received at the time from the sim community and the arcade racers (it was NFS after all) I also do not believe for 1 minute EA asked SMS to make such a bad handling game which someone claimed earlier.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Well, yeah, kinda. It's a popular belief in the gaming industry that if you make a racing game too realistic then casuals will find it too difficult and give up on it. So they ask Ian to make a flashy game that the average 9 year old with a controller can pick up and play which usually means the handling is going to be simplified and awful, but it will sell millions of copies and rake in the cash.

But the 9 year old couldnt play it because the handling was that poor especially compared to other arcade titles or sims. It literally did not make sense to the arcade racer or the sim racer and no matter how you try to justify that really strange handling model no one liked it be it 9 year olds or 99 years olds. GT 5 and 6 handled well for casuals, So did Forza and games like Split Second, Blur etc etc Shift was just down right weird and i very much doubt EA wanted that.

I wasnt basing it solely on my views i remember how awful the handling was received at the time from the sim community and the arcade racers (it was NFS after all) I also do not believe for 1 minute EA asked SMS to make such a bad handling game which someone claimed earlier.

Shift 2 in particular was made to cater both casual and sim players, at least that's what I can gather from this old interview with the devs :

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/digitalfoundry-under-the-bonnect-shift-2-part-1

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/digitalfoundry-under-the-bonnect-shift-2-part-2

I recently given Shift 2 for free, and it's easy to drive/play/tune without any assist/Elite/Full damage/manual clutch using stick controller, even with gas/brake using face buttons ( which registers only as state input type ) The shoulder buttons L2/R2 had analog pressure sensitivity ( value input type ) The advanced controller setting needs to be dialed in to get workable driving controls, I think that's what hindered many casuals to enjoy the game. Most casuals also might have problem tuning with advanced settings, the simplified values ( using numbers on slider without any reference to real life measurement ) may be easier for them, but for sim players, it's weird design choice.

 

[BrandonW77]

Here's the truth, you can't play PC2 for more than 10 minutes and not find multiple bugs. This should dispel the myth that its just some people.

- online stuttering
- car setups and loading
- absurd default tunes
- wet weather AI

The list is about 200 items deep.

On console maybe. I'm about 50 hours in on PC and I've not encountered any of those issues. There is a bug with saving car setups but there's a workaround and I drive with default setups so it hasn't affected me. Never had online stuttering, no problems with the default setups, don't race the AI. There's plenty of things I can nitpick about, those just don't happen to be them and I'm well past 10 minutes in. I guess we all have our own truths.

 

[Scaff]

I will never pre-order a game ever again. I got sucked in on PC2, never again. Thank goodness I only bought the base game.

Here's the truth, you can't play PC2 for more than 10 minutes and not find multiple bugs. This should dispel the myth that its just some people.

- online stuttering
- car setups and loading
- absurd default tunes
- wet weather AI

The list is about 200 items deep.

I have to say that I can play PC2 for more than ten minutes without any of those ruining my day.

The on-line stutter is a pain in the backside, but its only when people join a practice or qualifying session that is in progress, not during a race itself.

I've not personally had any issues with set-ups and loading since the last patch, nor come across any absurd default tunes (more than happy to look if you have an example).

The wet weather AI does I agree still need some work, but its not close to being as bad as it was prior to the last patch.

 

[mattikake]

This reply shouldn't really get lost in this thread but what the hey;

The fundamental problem with the gaming industry shamelessly "ripping off" consumers, is one that consumers have actually created ourselves.

Piracy of software was a major problem in years gone by. It was too easily done. As such the gaming industry became protectionist of their work. Digital downloads are exempt from the EU Distance Selling Regulations because of the historical ease of copying software. What are the DSR? Basically, if you don't like a product you haven't been able to try before you buy [bought remotely], you can return it within 14 days, regardless of anything. It could be a fully functional, best product in the world, but if you bought it online, you can return it for any reason that takes your fancy for a full refund.

But due to the easy piracy of software, anyone could get a free copy so it is the ONLY online industry currently exempt from these regulations.*

However, things have moved on. It is very difficult to get the full functionality of modern games without the use of a digital signature, the use of a subscription to a gaming network - PSN, XB live etc. - that knows who you are, where you live, even supplies you with a copy of the software. You can no longer pirate software and use it without being caught. Or no longer pirate software and use it at all.

Gaming publishers know all these regulations and will quite happily use them against you in order to secure the most important thing in the world - profit. Everything else is secondary and because this is the law as it stands. In true form of the abused becoming the abuser, the industry has overcompensated and gone beyond protectionist to exploitative. Things have come full circle where the publisher has the power, not the consumer. There is nothing to stop a publisher releasing a [total bag of ****] game and charging top dollar because they know you have no right to return something that can be pirated.

The law needs to move on. This is easy to regulate by the use of demos. It should be law that all games have free demos available for consumers to try. This is the fairest middle-ground of try before you buy. Without a change in the law, this issue and many others, only has the scope to spiral out of control. And it will because operating to extremes is what humans are best at.

The consumers need to realise that it is they who control the market. The problem is, the market knows the consumer is weak, divided, self-obsessed and... stupid. But if united the people are the most unstoppable power in the universe...

*except maybe the music industry?

 

[Chad151515]

Trying to do an Indy 500 and of course it'll only go to 143 laps.....

 

[FOG-Smokebeer]

Well when I was 9 years old I could only dream about games looking and playing anything like we get today so a few 1st world issues are hardly worth throwing all my great new toys out the pram

 

[Chad151515]

Well when I was 9 years old I could only dream about games looking and playing anything like we get today so a few 1st world issues are hardly worth throwing all my great new toys out the pram

When you say you can run an Indy 500 and can`t thats false advertising. I don`t hate the game but some things need to be fixed.

 

[Corsa]

When you say you can run an Indy 500 and can`t thats false advertising. I don`t hate the game but some things need to be fixed.

The Indy 500 is 500 miles, or 200 laps which you can run. You even get a trophy when you win, The Milkman.

 

[novcze]

Playing PC2, how do you feel sat in your rig steering wheel in hand, when the game crashes to a blue screen?

How do you feel when you spend 6 hours working on a base tune, take it online, spend 1/2 hour qualifying for a race, and have the game load completely wrong and unrealistic tire pressures for the race?

How do you feel when you spend the better part of an hour searching for a good, non-sketchy, decently setup and run lobby, do 15-30 minutes of qualifying, lead the race for 9/10 laps, only to disco on the last lap, costing you 50 points on your license.

Repeat that cycle for 100 hours of gameplay, and tell me you can still see past the flaws in the architecture to the artistic beauty that is there (and don't get me wrong, when the game works, like in a solo offline private test session, it's pretty great). If, after 100 hours of dealing with that....aaaand seeing several issues recurring from PC1 which were never ever fixed, ranging from minor (transmission gear ratios showing very odd and inconsistent numbers in the tuning menu) to major (land mines!!), you still have the same cheery attitude, then you sir, have thicker skin than I.

if you don't like the game that much why bother playing it or commenting about it ?

But they do like the game, it's bugs they are complaining about. I see people who report an issues and push on developers as more passionate about the game than others who just wave the hand and say it's only a game.

 

[David Brooks]

The Indy 500 is 500 miles, or 200 laps which you can run. You even get a trophy when you win, The Milkman.

Not in an online lobby. Give it a try. Best we could get was 143 laps or 2 hours 20 minutes if set to run to time. This does not gel with the descriptions for those settings. For the number of laps it says you can do 1 to 999 laps but you can't.