Disheartened and disappointed with switching to wheel :(

TechnoIsLove

TechnoIsLove

1,175
Malta
Malta
TechnoIsLove
So I have been consistently fast with a controller and never far off the top times in Sport Mode and finishing in the top 7 often, even when starting 12th, etc. The lack of precision, at least for me, in controller turning made me feel like I reached my peak and needed a wheel to improve and compete up top.

I honestly could not go for the top wheels as just had some big personal expenses (inc wedding) so I went with the Logitech G29, which seems to had the best reviews for entry-level wheels.

The change is immense! I am much more precise, more immersed and playing GT7 overall is much more fun! But the angle of rotation makes it impossible to compete in Sport Mode. In Single player I don't mind having to slow down for the tight corners but in Sport Mode, especially qualifying, it kills your lap time.

Not being able to change the degrees of rotation in GT7 sucks - I literally am 1.5 seconds slower per lap using the wheel vs my controller times and this is after hours and hours of practice. I am much more precise but need to slow down so much as the turning circle using the G29 is similar to that of a city bus.

I am so disappointed and sad. I changed the rotation on F1 22 and it made all the difference. Why didn't PD include this option? Biggest let down ever and it kind of ruined the excitement I had as I went backwards rather than improve, so much so that for Sport Mode, I am always using controller to qualify and depending on the track layout, sometimes use the wheel as I still make up positions overall.

Anyone else suffering the same way? There really is no way of changing the rotation degrees, right?
 
TechnoIsLove
So I have been consistently fast with a controller and never far off the top times in Sport Mode and finishing in the top 7 often, even when starting 12th, etc. The lack of precision, at least for me, in controller turning made me feel like I reached my peak and needed a wheel to improve and compete up top.

I honestly could not go for the top wheels as just had some big personal expenses (inc wedding) so I went with the Logitech G29, which seems to had the best reviews for entry-level wheels.

The change is immense! I am much more precise, more immersed and playing GT7 overall is much more fun! But the angle of rotation makes it impossible to compete in Sport Mode. In Single player I don't mind having to slow down for the tight corners but in Sport Mode, especially qualifying, it kills your lap time.

Not being able to change the degrees of rotation in GT7 sucks - I literally am 1.5 seconds slower per lap using the wheel vs my controller times and this is after hours and hours of practice. I am much more precise but need to slow down so much as the turning circle using the G29 is similar to that of a city bus.

I am so disappointed and sad. I changed the rotation on F1 22 and it made all the difference. Why didn't PD include this option? Biggest let down ever and it kind of ruined the excitement I had as I went backwards rather than improve, so much so that for Sport Mode, I am always using controller to qualify and depending on the track layout, sometimes use the wheel as I still make up positions overall.

Anyone else suffering the same way? There really is no way of changing the rotation degrees, right?
Click to expand...
I'm on G29, and I agree with you that it's frustrating that we can't adjust the turning sensitivity. Try the Shifter kart and you will want to reduce the sensitivity!!

The excuse (apparently) that the turning lock for each car in the game is set to match the real life car... Suuuuuure.

Anyway, persevere with it because you will find other ways, and possibly be faster in the end. I see that you are an A rated player, so obviously you know what to do. Nevertheless I'll throw in a few ideas, in case some of them might help.

1. Controller Assists: It's well known, and very logical, that PD have programmed the game to try equalise controller and wheel users. Essentially like BoP, but applied to the input nethods. This means for each input method (Controller, Logitec, Thrustmaster, Fanatec) there are pros and cons, so different events might slightly favor one over the others.

2. There are several driving techniques to encourage the car to turn into a corner, which are more necessary on a wheel, than a controller. Brake Balance is the main weapon. Set it further towards the back so that you can brake deeper into the corner whilst trail braking, and the car will still turn in because the front wheels have not lost traction. You may need to brake earlier, which seems counterintuitive, but by maintaining a smoother corner speed your exit is smoother and faster overall. Each car/track combination will have an optimum setting, so test out a few and you will soon develop your own preferences.

3. Similarly, you can drop an extra gear in some rwd cars, momentarily if needed, and depending on the car/tyres you might need to shift back up before accelerating, to avoid spinning. This week's online TT features a good example of this technique because unfortunately BB is unavailable due to BoP (watch the #1 replay)

4. Slip Angle:

driver61.com

Driving at the Limit - Driver61 -

Driving at the Limit - read, learn and get in the race with driver61.com - your favourite Motorsports resource.
driver61.com driver61.com
'nuf said

5. Ride Height: One common issue in GT7 is if you drop the ride hight to the minimum setting, the wheels can't turn fully because they hit the chassis!! Who knew!? Apparently you have to take a picture on full lock, to check your setup. Or just put the ride height +10 from the minimum, as some have suggested.

6. Diff settings. I'm not an expert, but where tuning is allowed the diff & suspension settings make a huge difference. Try the Praiano Tune and see if it solves your problem.
 
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Mudda Chod
I'm on G29, and I agree with you that it's frustrating that we can't adjust the turning sensitivity. Try the Shifter kart and you will want to reduce the sensitivity!!

The excuse (apparently) that the turning lock for each car in the game is set to match the real life car... Suuuuuure.

Anyway, persevere with it because you will find other ways, and possibly be faster in the end. I see that you are an A rated player, so obviously you know what to do. Nevertheless I'll throw in a few ideas, in case some of them might help.

1. Controller Assists: It's well known, and very logical, that PD have programmed the game to try equalise controller and wheel users. Essentially like BoP, but applied to the input nethods. This means for each input method (Controller, Logitec, Thrustmaster, Fanatec) there are pros and cons, so different events might slightly favor one over the others.

2. There are several driving techniques to encourage the car to turn into a corner, which are more necessary on a wheel, than a controller. Brake Balance is the main weapon. Set it further towards the back so that you can brake deeper into the corner whilst trail braking, and the car will still turn in because the front wheels have not lost traction. You may need to brake earlier, which seems counterintuitive, but by maintaining a smoother corner speed your exit is smoother and faster overall. Each car/track combination will have an optimum setting, so test out a few and you will soon develop your own preferences.

3. Similarly, you can drop an extra gear in some rwd cars, momentarily if needed, and depending on the car/tyres you might need to shift back up before accelerating, to avoid spinning. This week's online TT features a good example of this technique because unfortunately BB is unavailable due to BoP (watch the #1 replay)

4. Slip Angle:

driver61.com

Driving at the Limit - Driver61 -

Driving at the Limit - read, learn and get in the race with driver61.com - your favourite Motorsports resource.
driver61.com driver61.com
'nuf said

5. Ride Height: One common issue in GT7 is if you drop the ride hight to the minimum setting, the wheels can't turn fully because they hit the chassis!! Who knew!? Apparently you have to take a picture on full lock, to check your setup. Or just put the ride height +10 from the minimum, as some have suggested.

6. Diff settings. I'm not an expert, but where tuning is allowed the diff & suspension settings make a huge difference. Try the Praiano Tune and see if it solves your problem.
Click to expand...

As I play Sport Mode 99.99% of the time (Race B and Race C) I won't be able to adjust ride height and diff settings (I think) but will see about shifting the brake bias if they allow it. Still, thanks for the reply mate, I really appreciate it!

Will watch the video after work and see if I can maybe pick up a few things. I do trail brake and shift down on turns to get it around when I can but the whole thing is super annoying and simply unrealistic...

It's not like we are asking for something new, practically all driving games allow you to change rotation degrees!
 
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You must have in mind you have years of experience with the controller and, not so much time with the wheel.

I also have a G29 and the degree of rotation needed on tight corners can be a bit overwhelming at times but no so much as you say.

Without knowing your assists settings, be aware that the wheel doesn't have the same kind of "hidden assists" that you would benefit on the controller (specially countersteering assist) , even with all the assists turned off. Unknowingly you could easily shaving a tenth of a second or two with the controller, in some corners.
 
It takes time to get used to the wheel, especially in GT7 where it kind of feels like there are some built-in assists when using a controller that cannot be turned off. Not saying there 100% is as I don't know, but it "feels" that way...

The speed will come in time. I have a G29 myself and use it and the controller about evenly, and I'm 1-2sec quicker/lap depending on the car/course with the wheel but I was experiencing the same thing you're going through when I first switched over. It takes a few weeks, maybe even a few months before you start to really see the time benefits, but you'll get there just stick with it.
 
Having watched people get started with using a wheel for the first time, what I see most of all happening is that they are simply slow to react and don't move the wheel quickly enough to where it needs to be.

You have to remember that cheaper wheels like the G29 have quite low powered motors. This is fine for giving you road feel and steering weight, but when it comes to the motor turning the wheel for you (as a car would in real life when you are oversteering) it simply can't keep up.

So you basically have to help the wheel in those situations. That means learning to:
1. React instantly when you feel the car beginning to oversteer, to move the wheel so that you "catch" the slide as quickly as you can
2. Learn to flick the wheel 90+ degrees as fast as possible if you didn't catch the slide quickly enough

You can tell beginners to the wheel by how they cause the car to oscillate left and right because they were too slow to react and not aggressive enough with moving the wheel around to catch oversteer. You just need to train yourself to be faster and decisive with your reactions, and this alone will make a HUGE difference to your wheel use.
 
Bro... it's because of the G29, I'm sorry but it's turning radius and deadzone is worse than other wheels like T300RS.

It's basically the old G27 that I had for the PS3 games. I'm still on controller and haven't bought one because of this, waiting to get the t300rsgt
 
Which turn(s) specifically are you having trouble with? I am also on a G29. The only turn I remember having a really hard time with was the hairpin at Deep Forest reverse. Going counter-clockwise it's not an issue, but going clockwise it's a bit tight.

I like my G29, but I may be a little bias as it's all I've ever really used. A buddy of mine has a Thrustmaster (I forget the model) that I've used here-and-there (less than five hours if I had to guess) and I was much slower with it. But, I was/am much more used to the G29 so that may be why. My only real complaint is the brake pedal could use some more refinement... but I paid $250 for the whole set so hard to expect a lot more for that price point.

I'm sure if I was given a DD Pro and a week to mess with it I'd be singing a different tune, but I like my G29 enough that I am not interested in investing in anything else (plus a new stand). The DD Pro alone costs more than twice as much as I have invested into my whole setup. Maybe someday in the future... or maybe not.
 
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I
pedrocor
You must have in mind you have years of experience with the controller and, not so much time with the wheel.

I also have a G29 and the degree of rotation needed on tight corners can be a bit overwhelming at times but no so much as you say.

Without knowing your assists settings, be aware that the wheel doesn't have the same kind of "hidden assists" that you would benefit on the controller (specially countersteering assist) , even with all the assists turned off. Unknowingly you could easily shaving a tenth of a second or two with the controller, in some corners.
Click to expand...

Aside from ABS, I don't have any assists at all, neither on controller or on wheel. I guess I have no choice to keep trying. Will post a video with controller and wheel laps asap maybe you guys can spot some errors...
 
I also have a G29, you get used to the wheel rotation. You don’t need to turn the wheel that much in most corners anyway, just give it time.

I still use a 900 degree rotation in iRacing GT3 cars since I’m so used to it from GR3 in GT. In other games I would only use less rotation on cars with a bad turning radius, like F1 cars. But GT adjusts that automatically anyway.
 
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Perseverance is key.

On a controller you're used to full lock being an inch away, on wheel, much like real life, it's not that close.

The G29 is a 900° wheel, that's pretty much the standard rotation balance between offering precision and snappy response. If you go below 900°, you'll find the response is quicker, but that also means less precise.

Think about it this way - if I match the rotation of my wheel to the virtual wheel so that 1° of rotation on my wheel equals 1° of rotation on the virtual wheel, I'm running a 1:1 ratio. If I then reduce the degrees of rotation to full lock, I may be at a 1:2 rotation - 1° on the real wheel equals 2° on the virtual wheel. I've lost a degree of precision. The more you adjust the degree of rotation to make full lock easier, the more precision you lose.

It's a balance - do you want full lock to be easier at the expense of precision, or do you want to learn which corners require that extra degree of rotation to turn?
 
TechnoIsLove
There's the difference

  • Controller is 1:21:9
  • Wheel is 1:23:4

1.5s slower as can't turn as fast 😭😢🫤

Click to expand...


It's just practice. It literally took me months, not hours, to transition from a controller to a G29 and to be as fast (and then faster).

Your steering inputs on the wheel are really jerky, while your controller inputs are super smooth. That's all just muscle memory that needs to be re-learned. I remember when I first started put on a G29 the first chicane at Monza felt impossible. It's such a big movement from full right lock to full left lock and it just felt wrong and took ages before I could do it consistently.

Give it time and maybe go back and re-do all the license tests. It will help.
 
TechnoIsLove
There's the difference

  • Controller is 1:21:9
  • Wheel is 1:23:4

1.5s slower as can't turn as fast 😭😢🫤

Click to expand...

Thank you! Your steering input with the wheel is too hard and you turn the wheel too much.
That way your front tires can't cope and lose grip and you have massive understeer. That explains why you said you need to slow down so much.

Try turning your wheel more slowly and not as far to not overwhelm your tires. Unless in hairpins you'll almost never need more than 90° rotation.

When you use the pad, this smoothness is already built in - even when you smash the stick to the left, the turning radius will increase more slowly
 
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This is very puzzling? I also have a g29 and only really do daily races alike you. I don’t think I have had to rotate the wheel more than 180° (halfway around) to make a corner. The hairpin at Suzuka never requires more than a half turn. Idk it’s interesting. You could be over steering the wheel? Run laps with the controller and pay attention to the red dot above rev light. You’ll notice that the controller will only go so far left or right on ever different corner. You can see what the games “thinks” is the best input that way
(Controller sensitivity 10)😜 if it doesn’t do anything, there is no harm in experimenting 🍻
 
What helps in learning this is a simulator with good quality tyre noise - Set the tyre noise specifically louder than other sounds and you can hear when the tyres are scrubbing and you are overturning.

Not sure what the best recommendation would be on PS5 at the moment for that, though... Maybe the original Assetto Corsa?
 
timekiller001
Thank you! Your steering input with the wheel is too hard and you turn the wheel too much.
That way your front tires can't cope and lose grip and you have massive understeer. That explains why you said you need to slow down so much.

Try turning your wheel more slowly and not as far to not overwhelm your tires. Unless in hairpins you'll almost never need more than 90° rotation.

When you use the pad, this smoothness is already built in - even when you smash the stick to the left, the turning radius will increase more slowly
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timekiller001
There are some videos on this explaining it, a short search gave me this video. It's from iRacing, but the idea is the same

Click to expand...

Agree 100% with what TK is saying. One of the things I was watching in your wheel video was the trail braking. If you go watch someone like Aura, Digit, Super GT, or Z28 when they're approaching turns, they're very good at trail braking. This allows you to brake later, but more importantly to what you're experiencing, it helps the car rotate more thus scrubbing less sped on entry and allowing earlier throttle on exit and mitigating understeer. You'll see that often their brakes are slowly coming off as they're approaching the apex keeping a little more weight on the front of the car helping turning, but keeping it lighter on the back helping rotation.

Your turning inputs seemed much smoother on the controller, but so did your braking/throttle inputs. Proper trail braking is something that I still struggle with but am trying to get better at. It's a hard skill to master, IMO.

I think you just need more time with it. You've got the knowledge and skill to do it for sure, it's just a matter of getting the laps under your belt. If you're getting frustrated with doing Sport Mode on the wheel, maybe - as another user mentioned - just do some of the license tests or CEs over again in the meantime.
 
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From a quick scan of your vid, multiple things seem to be at play.

Steering input will need to be refined as others have noticed. PD's calculus for controller is one of the reasons GT series has been a fan favorite, but I suspect once your inputs are accustomed to car behavior on controller, it is hard to translate linearly to a wheel.

Besides steering, your feet now have to play a major role in rotating the car -- especially in corner entry. I don't see you trailing into slow corners effectively towards the apex -- more like late braking with lots of steering angle to compensate -- so try to be more intentional about how you are using the brakes to coax the nose of your car towards the apex. Besides the obvious additional grip as a result of a slightly loaded front, there is also the tendency to lighten the rear which helps with rotation mid corner. How one dances on the pedals is often underestimated by new wheel users and the subtle, but refined manner in which hands and feet need to coordinate together to shift a car's load throughout the entire corner should be a focus for new users.

Lastly, looking specifically at your mid corner pedal inputs, I don't see any maintenance throttle in either controller or wheel. This raises a question -- are there differences between controller and wheel input styles to go fast? I have seen many fast guys on controller and consistently the preferred technique is to coast mid corner without trailing in too much or maintenance throttle. While fast wheel users are the exact opposite. So my informed assumption is, the inputs you are used to with controller is not what it takes to produce the same results on a wheel...perhaps this is how PD has chosen to level the playing field between both input types.

Not really sure, but there has been some talk about how inputs on a controller are always assisted, and with your pace dropping 1.5s, it does raise a question. I can't say because I started on a wheel, but I have been puzzled as to how some on a controller can find such quick pace by coasting mid corner...it almost seems that the proper way to transfer load mid corner is assisted for a controller, while on a wheel -- you are on your own.

Edit -- don't give up! It is so rewarding when things come together...not to mention, acquired skills directly translate to RL.
 
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I cannot quote everyone who replied since I posted my video but I read all of them, TWICE! Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply, seems like I have to change my thinking completely and not try to replicate my inputs from controller to the wheel and expect the same!

I've felt useless and stupid since the switch. Funny thing is my actual, real life car is only slightly less powerful than the GT3 cars yet I can handle that like it's nothing, including very fast and tight corners and left foot braking, etc 🤣

Back to the drawing board I guess but really, THANK YOU all for taking the time and explain in detail, much appreciated!! ❤️
 
Hi,

Please don't give up! I know Mudda quite well - away from these forums! - He is blisteringly quick on GT7! He has taught me sooooo much, my lap times are around 2 - 5 seconds quicker as a direct result of his input.

I would add to the comments made above...


Make sure the wheel and pedals are set rock solid on their respective mounts. I made this mistake with a, somewhat, sloppy rig. Mudda pointed out the benefits of bolting everything up "rock solid".... Instantly 0.5 seconds quicker!

Best regards to all here.

Ian.
 
TechnoIsLove
There's the difference

  • Controller is 1:21:9
  • Wheel is 1:23:4

1.5s slower as can't turn as fast 😭😢🫤

Click to expand...

Another thing to consider is how soon you start the turn. With controller due to how quickly you can go full lock, you can start the turn later. With wheel, because full lock takes longer to get to, you need to start your turn earlier.
 
I was massively off pace when I switched to a wheel as well, you just have to un-learn all the bad habits that the controller assists have taught you and learn how to properly drive.

As other people are saying, you are massively scrubbing the front tires in the second Laguna lap you posted.
 
I use automatic sensitivity (the default steering angle for each car) on my Fanatec. Should I not be doing this?

I do it so the cockpit view in replays matches my real life inputs 1:1. I also thought the higher resolution, so to speak, allows for finer steering control.
 
BigSarj
I use automatic sensitivity (the default steering angle for each car) on my Fanatec. Should I not be doing this?

I do it so the cockpit view in replays matches my real life inputs 1:1. I also thought the higher resolution, so to speak, allows for finer steering control.
Click to expand...
No, for Fanatec what you say is correct
 
Making the switch from controller to wheel is 90% about learning to understand what the force feedback is trying to tell you. In a real car you can feel when you start oversteering from how the car behaves, but in the game it’s mainly communicated via the force feedback. And the force feedback is very different when you go from controller to a wheel, it’s basically like a different language altogether.

Once you get the hang of it you will probably become faster than ever before :)
 
TechnoIsLove
There's the difference

  • Controller is 1:21:9
  • Wheel is 1:23:4

1.5s slower as can't turn as fast 😭😢🫤

Click to expand...

IMO there's no problem with the wheel, nor the way you are using it (in general).

Having watched your videos, the only significant errors you make are on turns 9 & 10 (immediately after the Corkscrew). These alone are costing you 1.5 sec for sure.

Turn 9 (Rainey Curve) you lift off slightly late and consequently need to brake harder than usual, mid corner. Adding salt to the wound you then dab the accelerator, realise your mistake and lift off, greatly affecting your exit speed. At the entrance to Turn 9, had you lifted off slightly earlier, the timing of your accelerator input would likely have been correct and pushed you around the turn nicely.

Similarly on Turn 10 you over-cook the entrance, and consequently the required brake application is harder and longer than optimal. Also you're not using the full track width on the left, likely because of the bad exit from turn 9. On Turn 10 you can ride the left wheels onto the ripple strip and lift off just as you touch it. Press the brake and then release slightly (or fully if you can) to initiate turn in. Once you're sure that your entry angle is correct, power onnnnnn baby!

I haven't set a Qualy on this race yet, but I'll try now, and let you know if the above advice is accurate.

Edit: from your split time, you are losing 0.6 seconds in this final sector, therefore 0.8 seconds in the first parts. I'll check the videos again
 
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