DLC a knee jerk reaction to forza 4?
- Thread starter TURBOMATIZ
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- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
PD won't be jerkin there knee every month for the next four months though.
That's at least what Forza will be bringing to the table.
TBH I don't think PD want to even get into a competition. Turn10 don't want to either.
It's all good for us consumers though. Choice is never a bad thing.
That's at least what Forza will be bringing to the table.
TBH I don't think PD want to even get into a competition. Turn10 don't want to either.
It's all good for us consumers though. Choice is never a bad thing.
- 9,054
- Murica
- BasedAckbar
Not exactly knee jerk when PD outlined DLC in that presentation of what GT5 will have a few years before both Forza 4 and GT5 got released.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
I'm not too sure that T10 doesn't want to get into competition with Polyphony. T10 folk seem to have quite a lot of "backhanded respect" for PD, if you catch my driftiness. But PD simply can't compete with the hundreds of modelers in five different studios or more cranking out content for F4. I think amar212 estimated it at 400-plus people working on it, or quoted a journalist on that. PD can only keep doing what they're doing, and for me and a million or so of us, that's good enough.
It would be nice to have a Livery Editor and mod system that deep, but we'll just have to wait and see on that. It's a pretty complex addition to GT5 to just patch in, but stranger things have happened.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Scaff-O, did you have to delete the video too?? I was going to poke at that. 
Hopefully, we can discuss other DLC possibilities, such as that Livery Editor and those added A-Spec Events so many of us want, or even that dreaded Event Maker I've been going on about in a neighboring thread. I'd kind of like to stick in some of my own creations from Forza 4 at some point, assuming I can get the darn 360 Leet to get online anyhow. That livery painter T10 developed to me is what makes Forza a kickazz series, that and the deep body modding system. Hopefully you guys wouldn't get your feathers all out of place if we touch on that. Doesn't have a thing to do with which game has superior physics.
Hopefully, we can discuss other DLC possibilities, such as that Livery Editor and those added A-Spec Events so many of us want, or even that dreaded Event Maker I've been going on about in a neighboring thread. I'd kind of like to stick in some of my own creations from Forza 4 at some point, assuming I can get the darn 360 Leet to get online anyhow. That livery painter T10 developed to me is what makes Forza a kickazz series, that and the deep body modding system. Hopefully you guys wouldn't get your feathers all out of place if we touch on that. Doesn't have a thing to do with which game has superior physics.
- 204
- Bexhill
- xxDingerxx
It wasn't a knee jerk reaction. More like a long term plan to just put F4 off its stride a bit and keep people from jumping ship.
The only thing I think was a knee jerk reaction was the release of Spec II. It didn't really make sense, the changes made to the game, though decent, didn't really warrant a spec change.
However, if you add spec II to the recent 2.02 patch, it starts to make a bit more sense. When you add the incoming planned january patch (whatever is in it) followed shortly afterwards by GT5 being re-released, my guess is what was originally planned as Spec II will be seen then (hoping the removal of alot of seasonals points to an expanded A-Spec).
Spec II as we know it was probably just bits and pieces they had ready at that time. I think the real Spec II is right around the corner.
The only thing I think was a knee jerk reaction was the release of Spec II. It didn't really make sense, the changes made to the game, though decent, didn't really warrant a spec change.
However, if you add spec II to the recent 2.02 patch, it starts to make a bit more sense. When you add the incoming planned january patch (whatever is in it) followed shortly afterwards by GT5 being re-released, my guess is what was originally planned as Spec II will be seen then (hoping the removal of alot of seasonals points to an expanded A-Spec).
Spec II as we know it was probably just bits and pieces they had ready at that time. I think the real Spec II is right around the corner.
- 1,732
- cuco33
I'm not too sure that T10 doesn't want to get into competition with Polyphony. T10 folk seem to have quite a lot of "backhanded respect" for PD, if you catch my driftiness. But PD simply can't compete with the hundreds of modelers in five different studios or more cranking out content for F4. I think amar212 estimated it at 400-plus people working on it, or quoted a journalist on that. PD can only keep doing what they're doing, and for me and a million or so of us, that's good enough.
It would be nice to have a Livery Editor and mod system that deep, but we'll just have to wait and see on that. It's a pretty complex addition to GT5 to just patch in, but stranger things have happened.
I don't get your 'driftiness'. Question I have is why the constant excuses for PD? PD is a significantly more successful company than T10. If T10 can grow their internal staff and/or outsource work, then so can PD. These excuses of 'PD has X amount of people and T10 has Y/outsource work' is nothing more than just that.. excuses. There's no laws preventing PD to grow their staff nor to outsource. It was PD's choice to take on all the projects they did and not properly manage their resources. It's also PD's choice on how they handle work and DLC. In other words, I'm not defending either company but showing reality for what it is.
- 205
- Rodés, Occitània
- AnPrionsaBeag
I totally agree, cuco33. PD has sold millions of games: they're successful, powerful and resourceful. They have more than most developers. I think they don't delegate car modeling because they just don't want to, not because they can't. They could save a lot of time and recreate real-life circuits and improve the game instead but they won't. I suscribed to Project Cars and when I see how well and relatively fast their motivated and meticulous artists make tracks, I can't help but think PD should go the extra mile with GT5.
- 10,456
- United States
- WrecklessAbandon
It's amusing because it's used as a "defense", but is actually a problem PD has. PD is to small to keep up anymore, and to stubborn to fix the problem.
I don't think the DLC was a "knee-jerk reaction", but I do think it was timed intentionally, of course. 13 months and this supposedly "planned long ago" DLC just started coming out, and we've only gotten 1 truly "new" car.
It's downright laughable. Pathetic.
1 new car and about 20 remakes, in over a year.
How many versions of this Toyota do we have now?
I've got $8 sitting in my PSN account, and it sure as hell isn't going towards remodeled cars already in the game, and not for simple rm versions of cars either. I bought the first DLC for Spa, and needed 1 car for a fun series, only reasons I bought any of it.
- 982
PD may have the vastly superior sales but they may only get a small proportion of those sales in comparison to Turn 10. You never know how much money Sony takes and gives back etc. (notice the word may its all assumption)
You do not get his drifitiness. Well let me sum it up for you quickly. There have been several occasions (notice the word several) were Turn 10 have spoken "not so kind words about PD" were PD had been the more mature person and did not respond (thankfully imagine the fanboy war from that). Furthermore there was a Turn 10 member who was caught trolling PD on some message boards and also apparently there was a poll at some website to see which game was better and Turn 10 bribed their community saying if they voted for them at this website then they will receive some unicorn cars. The website caught on and stopped the poll. Hope that was informative.Back on topic, though PD's car dlc may be a tad disappointing many people have forgotten that PD has already released two tracks which take a much longer time modelling whereas as I know Forza 4 has not gotten any tracks as DLC. Just for that I am forgiving PD because Spa in GT5 is the best Spa I have played by far on any console and on a few Pc sims too.
McLaren
Premium
- 45,414
- Texas
You can not blame a Community Manager (i.e. a person who has almost zero voice on the game's development) for the rest of the company. T10 have already gotten rid of Che & it shows they're serious about maintaining a professional image.
It took PD nearly a year to release those 2 new tracks. How can you then sit there & compare that to Forza 4 which is still less than 3 months old? Have you forgotten that T10 have already released 2 car packs for the game where as by GT5 didn't get it's first DLC pack til' around 11 months later? I mean, if we want to go down this road & be fair, that is.
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- 10,456
- United States
- WrecklessAbandon
You're right, FM4 doesn't need track DLC, it came out with a much better MUCH better real world track listing then GT5 has.PD may have the vastly superior sales but they may only get a small proportion of those sales in comparison to Turn 10. You never know how much money Sony takes and gives back etc. (notice the word may its all assumption)
Back on topic, though PD's car dlc may be a tad disappointing many people have forgotten that PD has already released two tracks which take a much longer time modelling whereas as I know Forza 4 has not gotten any tracks as DLC. Just for that I am forgiving PD because Spa in GT5 is the best Spa I have played by far on any console and on a few Pc sims too.
By miles and miles and miles and miles.
http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/Tracks/TrackList.aspx
Excuse me if I don't pat PD on the back for adding and charging for the addition of a single track when their competition's track list is THIS much better.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
No, I'm afraid you're not, but it's because you probably don't understand the situation.
Both Turn 10 and Polyphony Digital are wholly owned first party studios of Microsoft and SONY, respectively. Microsoft is a de facto monopoly which doesn't make much of anything but very expensive software. SONY Corp is essentially three different businesses in one, but one of them is amanufacturer of electronics, which in this global depression has suffered quite a bit. It's relying on revenue from the studio and entertainment divisions to keep it afloat.
Microsoft has profits of around $18 billion last fiscal year, last I heard. SONY Corp may not be making much profit at all, and may not have the last two years. The news I read on that is rather sketchy.
I seriously doubt MS made the massive amounts of cash from the Forza series necessary to produce Forza 4, which involved hiring four or five development houses and hundreds of computer techs, plus a Hollywood production firm, plus all the costs on all those cars, tracks and hundreds of other companies' licenses. And since SONY isn't made of money, and is using profits from two divisions to keep the electronics side alive... well, you do the math.
Hear hear, bro. *fingers crossed*
- 10,456
- United States
- WrecklessAbandon
So now it's all about Sony's budget? The GT series doesn't make it's own money through 65 million video games sold at over $30 a pop?
God forbid TD would stop griping about capitalism in a Gran Turismo forum.
So basically, PD is still operating far behind schedule?Hear hear, bro. *fingers crossed*
GT5 releases "early" but behind schedule, needs updates to become proper, updates fall behind schedule, need more updates to become the updates they should have been, when the hell does this train stop?
I guess maybe it's happening because of capitalism, right? Stupid capitalism slowing PD down!
- 28,314
- Brooklyn, NY
- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
- 10,456
- United States
- WrecklessAbandon
It's that damn Microsoft and capitalism, they're killing the GT series, those bastards!
I think they should make laws that require Microsoft give Sony cash handouts, cause god forbid somebody else would have to build a fortune from the ground up earning it like MS did.
- 10,456
- United States
- WrecklessAbandon
Of course, PD had to give Sony all their money from GT5 sales to support the poor, helpless company that is only losing money through no fault of their own.
It's never possible bad business practice could play a part in any companies fortune, or vice verse.
Cause Sony takes all of poor PD's money, hogs it for themselves, and PD workers slave in offices 24/7/365, for $1 an hour just to support Sony, and yet somehow MS is the evil company of the two.
Don't know how I forgot all that.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
CSLACR must think that Kazunori has a huge Scrooge McDuck-like moneybin he just rolls around in, between throwing handfuls of cash to minions sent to acquire licenses on things. Plus all that driving he does, but that's a side issue.
Plus, you guys need to think about all that content in both Forza and Gran Turismo. Those 800 some odd Standards in GT5 had to be relicensed. Now car by car, that might not be all that much, but consider the fact that this involves 80 some odd car makers, as well as all those cars. There are fewer cars in Forza 4, but a similar number of manufacturers, and those guys know how rich M$ is.
What about all those real world tracks in both games? They aren't free. What about the racing leagues in those games? They want a cut.
And again on that outsourcing thing. Consider that the 100-plus members of Polyphony - perhaps as high as 150 at one point in one article - worked their sleep deprived butts off on that game, and between the licenses and payroll, just at the point of early 2010, Gran Turismo 5 cost SONY as much as $80 million. And they worked on it for almost an entire year more. That's one staff of between 110 to 150 people.
You have to hire development houses to do contract work for you. It's not done at cost, and it's not cheap, because those companies want to make a profit. They have to make payroll and pay bills and provide benefits and stuff too. And if the business doing the contracting is Microsoft, you can bet that they pushed that cost margin up a bit, maybe a lot, because the companies know they can afford it easily. And if the company being contracted includes a Hollywood production firm... well, you know how Hollywood loves money. Just between the contractors and Turn 10 itself, it's possible that 500 people were working on Forza 4, and that's a hella lot of money.
Just arguing these points without any understanding of what's involved is sure easy, just rattling off a bunch of text.
Now we are lucky that MS is so rich and SONY knows that Gran Turismo means instant cash. Both these games include some awesome content, which of course we'd love to see in each other's series. But neither one can act like money is no object, there is a point you have to call it quits. And it's not hard to conclude that the reason a certain manufacturer isn't in Forza 4 this time is because MS saw the bill, and you have to draw the line somewhere, even M$.
Plus, you guys need to think about all that content in both Forza and Gran Turismo. Those 800 some odd Standards in GT5 had to be relicensed. Now car by car, that might not be all that much, but consider the fact that this involves 80 some odd car makers, as well as all those cars. There are fewer cars in Forza 4, but a similar number of manufacturers, and those guys know how rich M$ is.
What about all those real world tracks in both games? They aren't free. What about the racing leagues in those games? They want a cut.
And again on that outsourcing thing. Consider that the 100-plus members of Polyphony - perhaps as high as 150 at one point in one article - worked their sleep deprived butts off on that game, and between the licenses and payroll, just at the point of early 2010, Gran Turismo 5 cost SONY as much as $80 million. And they worked on it for almost an entire year more. That's one staff of between 110 to 150 people.
You have to hire development houses to do contract work for you. It's not done at cost, and it's not cheap, because those companies want to make a profit. They have to make payroll and pay bills and provide benefits and stuff too. And if the business doing the contracting is Microsoft, you can bet that they pushed that cost margin up a bit, maybe a lot, because the companies know they can afford it easily. And if the company being contracted includes a Hollywood production firm... well, you know how Hollywood loves money. Just between the contractors and Turn 10 itself, it's possible that 500 people were working on Forza 4, and that's a hella lot of money.
Just arguing these points without any understanding of what's involved is sure easy, just rattling off a bunch of text.
Now we are lucky that MS is so rich and SONY knows that Gran Turismo means instant cash. Both these games include some awesome content, which of course we'd love to see in each other's series. But neither one can act like money is no object, there is a point you have to call it quits. And it's not hard to conclude that the reason a certain manufacturer isn't in Forza 4 this time is because MS saw the bill, and you have to draw the line somewhere, even M$.
- 10,456
- United States
- WrecklessAbandon
Bold part first - proof?CSLACR must think that Kazunori has a huge Scrooge McDuck-like moneybin he just rolls around in, between throwing handfuls of cash to minions sent to acquire licenses on things. Plus all that driving he does, but that's a side issue.
Plus, you guys need to think about all that content in both Forza and Gran Turismo. Those 800 some odd Standards in GT5 had to be relicensed. Now car by car, that might not be all that much, but consider the fact that this involves 80 some odd car makers, as well as all those cars. There are fewer cars in Forza 4, but a similar number of manufacturers, and those guys know how rich M$ is.
What about all those real world tracks in both games? They aren't free. What about the racing leagues in those games? They want a cut.
And again on that outsourcing thing. Consider that the 100-plus members of Polyphony - perhaps as high as 150 at one point in one article - worked their sleep deprived butts off on that game, and between the licenses and payroll, just at the point of early 2010, Gran Turismo 5 cost SONY as much as $80 million. And they worked on it for almost an entire year more. That's one staff of between 110 to 150 people.
You have to hire development houses to do contract work for you. It's not done at cost, and it's not cheap, because those companies want to make a profit. They have to make payroll and pay bills and provide benefits and stuff too. And if the business doing the contracting is Microsoft, you can bet that they pushed that cost margin up a bit, maybe a lot, because the companies know they can afford it easily. And if the company being contracted includes a Hollywood production firm... well, you know how Hollywood loves money.
Just arguing these points without any understanding of what's involved is sure easy, just rattling off a bunch of text.
Now we are lucky that MS is so rich and SONY knows that Gran Turismo means instant cash. Both these games include some awesome content, which of course we'd love to see in each other's series. But neither one can act like money is no object, there is a point you have to call it quits. And it's not hard to conclude that the reason a certain manufacturer isn't in Forza 4 this time is because MS saw the bill, and you have to draw the line somewhere, even M$.
Or just another wild assumption? I have no reason to believe NFS didn't take their license and say "no thanks" to MS, unless you have proof, outside of wild assumptions made by a random on an internet forum.
Assuming somehow you're right about everything else, the simple answer is "to bad".
"We don't have to money to make a better game" coming from the best selling racing franchise ever, really?
- 13,863
- Adelaide
- Neomone
This.
We know they have enough money coming in from sales to get the job done. Best selling racing franchise ever, if they don't have enough money no one does. Either it gets siphoned off by Sony, which would be staggering mismanagement. Or PD gets the money and uses it wrong, which would be colossal mismanagement.
I'm not seeing much of a difference, personally.
- 982
Actually the guy doing the trash talking was Dan Greenawalt so yeah and of course they had to get rid of Che it doesn't show any initiative from Turn 10.
Yes that is true but remember PD never planned DLC (it was only after fans asking) and both teams have said that it takes two years to build a track so I am being fair ( I do agree Forza's car packs are better only because theres ten cars every month or so). Also I do not like DLC being released so closely to a game's release but that is a different topic.
Which company does not "earn" their money huh? Seems like your getting a bit carried away their its just a company.Since when was literally anything discussed in last few posts factual. The thread title clearly asks for ones normative judgement i.e opinion or assumption and its not like the statements you have made are factual either. Their all assumptions. You dont know anything (about this subject) because if you did you would not be arguing about it.
Also what proof do you have the EA said that to Microsoft.....exactly none...oh the guys at Turn 10 said so....yeah the people who lost the license said so....because that is such a reliable source isn't it.
Looks like we caught ourselves a....
- 40,757
Okay. So I'm going to assume that PD has to release DLC now when they originally had no plans to because Kaz is an unrepentant drug addict and spent all of the profit from GT5 on booze, cocaine and prostitutes; so they have no money left to make GT6.
And since by your decree apparently no one has to have any substantial evidence for any of the claims made in this thread no matter how wild others may think they are, my claim is no less accurate than your claim that PD is releasing DLC due to fan demand, or the idea that the DLC is a knee-jerk reaction to Forza 4. You've basically turned the entire thread into a "prove me wrong" scenario.
Perhaps you see now why CSLACR might have a problem with Tenacious' statement?
- 28,314
- Brooklyn, NY
- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
Rudenut
Premium
- 573
- Atl, GA
- SaintFu-
CSLACRSo now it's all about Sony's budget? The GT series doesn't make it's own money through 65 million video games sold at over $30 a pop?
God forbid TD would stop griping about capitalism in a Gran Turismo forum.
So basically, PD is still operating far behind schedule?
GT5 releases "early" but behind schedule, needs updates to become proper, updates fall behind schedule, need more updates to become the updates they should have been, when the hell does this train stop?
I guess maybe it's happening because of capitalism, right? Stupid capitalism slowing PD down!
Never...and it should't. Updates are good. I agree that GT5 was released unfinished and even with all the updates the game still has rough edges. I still love the game though and would welcome updates forever if offered. The game is nearing a full product now and future updates can include content and balancing tweaks.
As continuing effort is put into things like physics and realism, problems may arise that can be fixed through patches. Currently there are balance issues that can be improved. The performance point system can, and should be tweaked to account better for individual car characteristics. General characteristics could be re balanced as well.
Games are never really finished anymore, as they can always be improved. This new reality once accepted by the console community should put to bed all the "(insert name of game here) was unfinished"(granted GT5's case is extreme) whining.
- 6,911
- United Kingdom
Well Forza 4 will already have 3 DLC by January 1st week. Each of 10 cars worth 7$. The game was released less hardly released 2 months ago. This is absolutely ridiculous.
I hope they do not follow this cheap trick with next GT
Forza 4 represents very good value for money in both the game price and DLC department. It is probably the highest value for money title on the 360 by quite a margin.
GT5 will not be able to match that DLC output with its current organisational structure. The only way they can compete is to have 3-4 times more staff as they have now. I think it is pivotal point for PD on what they decide to do in the future. If they carry on as they are they will most likely will be clear 2nd in content in racing games. After all PD is one of the largest first party studios in the world and probably joint top in Sony's department. Their rival happens to be one of the largest gaming development teams in the world and on average is about 2-3 times larger than any other top first party studio which I repeat is a unique situation. Most people consider PD as small but it still does not stop the fact that they are more or less close to being the largest studio Sony has. Sony may consider letting PD expand to three times quite strange considering how successful it is and how big it already is.
The work of PD is being undermined due to only one competitor on a rival platform and hope it drives them to expand to show them they can match them in game content and DLC output department. The worrying thing though is their competitor might move the goal posts further by getting even more staff. I hope PD expand so we get even better value for money than we already do. If you cut out Forza, is there really any racing game out there with as much content or quality out the box as GT5? I personally think PD have done a remarkable job given the amount of games they have released since GT4 and with the number of staff. No wonder why quite a lot of workers sleep at the office, otherwise I think GT5 would be in a much worse state. In return they have them being called lazy / slow although I think it will be hard to find a development team as hard working as PD is. DLC output and pricing is reasonable at the moment, it will only get better as PD hire more staff and invest tens of million dollars for the next installment in the series. It will be slowed down a bit by the PS Vita title though but I don't think it will affect PD as much as the original PSP title.
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