Do you agree with Schumacher being penalised?

[The Outlaw]

The rule should be enforced, Schumacher should not be given 6th position. But as many have stated, even the race marshalls were unsure, because whilst the race was supposedly under yellow flag conditions (as per the rule enforced by the stewards) they were waving green flags as per the new rule for this year; Overtaking after the safety car line.

The stewards have clarified that in this instance (i.e. on the final lap) the new rule would not apply. I firmly believe that Schumacher should have been demoted back to 7th place, given a warning and possibly given the team a fine. He did not cheat, he did not knowingly break a rule to gain an advantage. He saw an opportunity to overtake under green flag conditions and took it. A standard penalty is not necessary nor fair in this situation, and I hope the FIA reverse the stewards decision.

But we've seen from the past, the FIA almost always agrees with the stewards' final decision in the event of an appeal. Schumacher has lost out quite frankly because of the FIA's lack of clarity on the rules, the marshalls' inconsistency with the rules and the instructions from his team which were contradictory to the rule which the stewards enforced.

I agree completely 👍

 

[Hun200kmh]

The McLaren team had told Hamilton over the radio: “Lewis on the last lap the safety car will go into the pits. The cars will proceed to the line and no overtaking.”Hamilton replied: “I thought you said we couldn’t pass after the safety car? Michael passed Fernando.”

According to this, at least Hamilton was instructed to hold position ...

 

[BMfan]

This just proves people don't want F1 drivers to overtake.

I'm not even a Schumacher supporter and i think it's BS,why didn't they penalize massa for messing up buttons quali lap.

 

[kikie]

No


Overtake was legal!

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Yes, I agree but the punishment is too severe. There is no other way though.

I don't think Alonso fell asleep on the restart. He was just stunned that Schumacher was trying to pass him.

edit: Actually found a quote from Alonso himself

"I saw Lewis was very slow on the last lap, so I asked the team again whether they were sure I could not overtake because I was ready to pass him if I could. But the team repeated there was to be no overtaking, so when I saw Michael I was very surprised".

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/16052010/58/schumacher-punished-move-alonso.html

 

[Anghammarad]

But does the action of uninformed stewards override the rule book? I certainly don't think so. If passing is prohibited it is prohibited, full stop. And people like Brawn and Schumacher should know it.

This.

 

[Touring Mars]

So apparently the stewards screwed up big time. The rule book says that passing is prohibited until the finish line yet the guys were waving green. But does the action of uninformed stewards override the rule book? I certainly don't think so. If passing is prohibited it is prohibited, full stop. And people like Brawn and Schumacher should know it.

I agree... waving the green flags caused a great deal of confusion, but this error/misleading signal doesn't render the rule on passing after a final lap safety car irrelevant. It's pretty clear that Alonso drove the last corners in the belief that the rules meant that passing was not allowed, and it is no surprise that it was Schumacher that sought to exploit the ambiguity of the green flags.

 

[Seismica]

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/5/10807.html

Mercedes GP Petronas were fully aware of Article 40.13 which states that no overtaking is permitted if the race finishes under safety car conditions,” explained the team in a statement released on Tuesday. “However we believed that the combination of the race control messages 'Safety Car in this lap' and 'Track Clear' and the green flags and lights shown by the marshals after safety car line one indicated that the race was not finishing under the safety car and all drivers were free to race.

It was clear from our discussions with the stewards after the race that they understood the reasons for our interpretation and acknowledged that this was a new and previously untested situation but ultimately disagreed with our interpretation."

In their statement, the team also revealed that the FIA had agreed to include Article 40.13 on the agenda of the next Sporting Working Group and to consider the scale of post-race penalties. We believe that the 20 second penalty imposed on Michael to be disproportionate in the circumstances.

Bad news for Schumacher and Mercedes. Good news for the future, the rule has now been fully clarified (And may actually be altered to allow overtaking in this situation in the future), and post race penalties are being looked at. I think the Stewards should be allowed to use discretion and issue penalties/punishments on a relative scale.

There has also been news that Damon Hill has been receiving hatemail, which I think is disgraceful 👎

 

[DK]

I just find that rule ridiculous. It's meant to be a RACE, not a procession or a parade of cars where no-one changes positions.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

How much of a race can you have from the safety car line to the finish line?

 

[Seismica]

How much of a race can you have from the safety car line to the finish line?

Well evidently, it can have an effect on the race results. 💡

Sure it is doubtful Alonso would have let Schumacher pass so easily if he thought they were racing... But it just shows, a lot can happen in the short distance to the finish line.

 

[Famine]

How much of a race can you have from the safety car line to the finish line?

One position's worth.

Mercedes have withdrawn their appeal because stop-go penalties cannot be appealed (as we saw two years ago), and the 20s post-race penalty is a stop-go penalty.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Bring on Turkey!

Edit: I prefer stuffing and gravy over cranberries

 

[Touring Mars]

Bring on Turkey!

I'll bring the cranberry sauce!

 

[Fastas]

Who wants stuffing? (apart from Schumacher)

 

[kikie]

Maybe this will be the waking up call for Shumacher to become more competitive again?!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Green flags were displayed, rendering rule 40.13 moot. Normal racing conditions from the SC line to the end, overtake was legal.

But who made the call to display green flags? The stretch of circuit around Rascasse through to the finish line is not a long one, and rule 40.13 is not a common one to be enforced. The marshalls could have mistakenly displayed green flags under the assumption that everything was to continue as per a normal re-start.

 

[Famine]

But who made the call to display green flags?

It doesn't matter - unless it was the drivers.

The marshalls showed green flags and the circuit's light system showed green lights (which would be under the jurisdiction of the race director, Charlie Whiting). That information is what drivers rely on. Their mistake - if it was a mistake - should not result in a driver getting a stop-go penalty.

The stretch of circuit around Rascasse through to the finish line is not a long one, and rule 40.13 is not a common one to be enforced. The marshalls could have mistakenly displayed green flags under the assumption that everything was to continue as per a normal re-start.

Except they have precedent - the 2009 Australian and Italian Grands Prix. Finished under Safety Car conditions, Safety Car comes in on the last lap and the marshalls and track light system display waved yellows and SC boards.

There's three ways to look at this.
*The green flags were displayed correctly - Schumacher should not be punished.
*The green flags were displayed incorrectly under the direction of Charlie Whiting - Schumacher should not be punished.
*The green flags were displayed incorrectly by the track lighting system marshall (which I always thought was Charlie) and three separate marshall posts who also removed the SC boards - Schumacher should not be punished.

The drivers can only act on the information given to them by the marshalls and their teams. Some teams told their drivers that they wouldn't be racing - the Safety Car was coming in but the race would finish in SC conditions - and some told their drivers that they would be - the Safety Car was coming in and the race would finish in race conditions. This information is also given to the teams by Charlie Whiting (if he's asked).

 

[somebody]

No. SC boards had been brought in and green flags waved, therefore it was not finished under SC conditions. I'd argue that the track marshalls (and stewards?) created a dangerous situation by displaying green flags under SC conditions. What if cars had collided and somebody was injured. I bet teams would be suing someone then.

 

[Small_Fryz]

Its annoying, though im guessing schumacher wont say anything about it, consideiring his history haha. poor chap

 

[Tired Tyres]

In my view punishing Schumacher is completely wrong. The issue is simply that a marshall showed a green flag when he shouldn't. Once Schumacher saw that, it was race on in his mind as it should be for any race driver.

The FIA should have owned up to the mistake, swopped Alsono and Schumacher's positions back around as if the overtake hadn't happened and then clarified the rule so it doesn't happen again.

That would require a governing body that applies its own rules in a fair and appropriate way though so good look getting the FIA to do anything even remotely like that then.

 

[yeti]

Why am I surprised that the FIA stewards agreed with Ferrari?!

C.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Why am I surprised that the FIA stewards agreed with Ferrari?!

C.

Because, from a famous and known ancient holy trinity, 2 of its members are in Mercedes and the 3rd one (or should he be named the first) is Mr. FIA now

 

[Sonzilla]

👍 Ross Brawn presents his evidence in defense of Michael Schumacher.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The drivers can only act on the information given to them by the marshalls and their teams. Some teams told their drivers that they wouldn't be racing - the Safety Car was coming in but the race would finish in SC conditions - and some told their drivers that they would be - the Safety Car was coming in and the race would finish in race conditions. This information is also given to the teams by Charlie Whiting (if he's asked).

Then the more challenging question is why the teams were given different information about the end of the race because it's becoming pretty clear that Mercedes were told to go for it, while Ferrari were told everyone would just drive to the line. The problem isn't the rulebook, it's in people being given conflicting infomation.

 

[Famine]

Then the more challenging question is why the teams were given different information about the end of the race because it's becoming pretty clear that Mercedes were told to go for it, while Ferrari were told everyone would just drive to the line. The problem isn't the rulebook, it's in people being given conflicting infomation.

There is an easy answer here - some teams asked and some didn't (or didn't ask the right question).

Of course if that's not the answer, there's a massive problem. I recall Charlie Whiting was asked a specific question about an overtake before. In Belgium in 2008.

 

[lucag120]

This is a joke, I cant even believe they penalized him.

Ross Brawn interprted the rules 100% correctly, the FIA just screwed up badly.

If Schumacher were fighting for the championship this would be a different story, as Mercedes would take it further.....

 

[Famine]

If Schumacher were fighting for the championship this would be a different story, as Mercedes would take it further.....

They can't. Schumacher's penalty - like Hamilton's in 2008 - is a stop-go penalty applied retrospectively, and, as McLaren found out, stop-go penalties cannot be appealed.

 

[Soundtrack]

But FIA will however clarify the rules...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I recall Charlie Whiting was asked a specific question about an overtake before. In Belgium in 2008.

If that's the case, I doubt it happened during the race - the teams would not have been able to ask Whiting, get an answer and relate it to Hamilton in the tme it took for Hamilton to pass Raikkonen, concede the place and then pass him again.

But I don't want to talk about Belgium 2008. That's a whole different conversation.