Do you believe in God?

[Stevisiov]

I do believe in god because god is who create every thing..

Surely you believe god created everything because you believe in god, rather than believing in god because god creating everything.

Two different things completely, just making sure you meant what you said

 

[homeforsummer]

Interesting poll results so far, I hadn't really been keeping an eye on them. Half don't believe in God, a quarter do, and the final quarter are made up of the wishy-washy non-committal sort who, if there is a God, surely can't be impressing him that much with the "hedging your bets" approach. If I were St. Peter standing at the pearly gates I'd be thinking "err... hang on, you were a 'maybe' your whole life and recanted on your death bed just in case? Nice try..."

 

[TheCracker]

I can't believe there are so many, or such a high proportion, of posters who 'maybe' believe in God. Surely you either do or don't?

 

[Joey D]

Like I've said, I don't know if there is a god or not hence why I voted maybe.

 

[TheCracker]

Like I've said, I don't know if there is a god or not hence why I voted maybe.

There's a difference in 'believing' and 'knowing' though isn't there?

Belief is faith where as knowing is more about scientific facts, if you catch my drift. The original question and theme of the thread is about the faith issue.

 

[Touring Mars]

I can see why people voted maybe... but perhaps they are answering a slightly different question to the one posed in the poll.

I am a firm "No" on the belief in God bit, but I'd also readily accept that there is a God if He ever made himself plainly apparent. Some people take everything and anything as proof of His existence/actions already, others the exact opposite. Therefore it is perhaps not as straightforward as it sounds to identify what would qualify as a "plainly apparent" act or appearance of a God (or living equivalent, e.g. a human prophet), but I'd like to think that we'd know it when we saw it.

Often I hear that only those who believe in God can or will be rewarded for that belief, the "you've got to be in it to win it" philosophy, or as it is known in the UK, National Lottery syndrome. I'd challenge the idea that eternal salvation demands that you buy a ticket every Sunday, however - let alone play the game 5 times a day while pointing roughly toward Mecca. I think there is atleast an equal chance that a true God wouldn't discriminate between believers and non-believers, hence non-belief in God isn't a problem.

Recanting on one's deathbed is a bit of a swizz, though - I doubt even my sister's greyhound would fall for it if I recanted, let alone an all-powerful deity (whom by extension made me this way in the first place). Recanting on one's deathbed is not altogether un-useful, though... in my case, it would be a sure-fire sign that I'd finally lost my marbles and that it was time to flick the switch.

 

[mindwise]

Recanting on one's deathbed is a bit of a swizz, though - I doubt even my sister's greyhound would fall for it if I recanted, let alone an all-powerful deity

Lol, yeah indeed.

On top of that, i'd have an extremely difficult time eternally worshiping a deity that would fall for it. (and it saves the hassle of having to pick a deity from the myriad 'out there' )

 

[Pako]

I can see why people voted maybe... but perhaps they are answering a slightly different question to the one posed in the poll.

I am a firm "No" on the belief in God bit, but I'd also readily accept that there is a God if He ever made himself plainly apparent. Some people take everything and anything as proof of His existence/actions already, others the exact opposite. Therefore it is perhaps not as straightforward as it sounds to identify what would qualify as a "plainly apparent" act or appearance of a God (or living equivalent, e.g. a human prophet), but I'd like to think that we'd know it when we saw it.

Often I hear that only those who believe in God can or will be rewarded for that belief, the "you've got to be in it to win it" philosophy, or as it is known in the UK, National Lottery syndrome. I'd challenge the idea that eternal salvation demands that you buy a ticket every Sunday, however - let alone play the game 5 times a day while pointing roughly toward Mecca. I think there is at least an equal chance that a true God wouldn't discriminate between believers and non-believers, hence non-belief in God isn't a problem.

Recanting on one's deathbed is a bit of a swizz, though - I doubt even my sister's greyhound would fall for it if I recanted, let alone an all-powerful deity (whom by extension made me this way in the first place). Recanting on one's deathbed is not altogether un-useful, though... in my case, it would be a sure-fire sign that I'd finally lost my marbles and that it was time to flick the switch.

Going to church every Sunday doesn't give you a ticket to eternal life, belief in Jesus does. John 3:16 says that who ever believes in him will not parish but have eternal life. That's Christianity broken down into a singular idea. The Bible also says that God knows the motives of the heart, in other words, if you are waiting to get to your death bed before you say, "Ok, yeah, for insurance sake I'll believe.....can we go now?", He will know. As far as discriminating a believer or a non-believer, go back to John 3:16. What point is there is creating a race of people who you can force to love and worship you? Wouldn't it be better if that love and worship came from their own free will? I would think so. As far as proof that would change your mind, if God came and knocked on your door, would you recognize Him?

 

[TheCracker]

As far as proof that would change your mind, if God came and knocked on your door, would you recognize Him?

He's the bloke in robes with the white beard and supernatural powers isn't he?



Or am i thinking of Obi Wan Kenobi?

Seriously, if God created the human race, how come he was only first written about 3000ish years ago?

 

[Sureboss]

And how most of them all started at roughly the same time, Islam being excepted as it's quite new. So mass religion has really only existed for about 1-2% of our existence as a species.

 

[Pako]

He's the bloke in robes with the white beard and supernatural powers isn't he?



Or am i thinking of Obi Wan Kenobi?

Seriously, if God created the human race, how come he was only first written about 3000ish years ago?

I'm thinking Obi Wan.

There are some sites that say the Torah has been around for at least 3300 years. How long have we had written word? It is still up for debate, but the Torah has been around since the beginning of history. According to Wikipedia, "Historians draw a distinction between prehistory and history, with history defined by the advent of writing. ".

3300 years is a really long time if you stop to think about it. Look at the advances and changes in just the last 100 years.

 

[mindwise]

There are some sites that say the Torah has been around for at least 3300 years. How long have we had written word? It is still up for debate, but the Torah has been around since the beginning of history. According to Wikipedia, "Historians draw a distinction between prehistory and history, with history defined by the advent of writing. ".

3300 years is a really long time if you stop to think about it. Look at the advances and changes in just the last 100 years.

The Torah has been around since the beginning of history? where do you get that idea.
And how you go from 'how long written word has been around is up for debate' to 'the torah has been around since the beginning of history' is a mystery to me.

First, let me ask you: What language was the Torah written in originally? and what are the implications of the answer to that question?

what the first 'written word' was is still up for debate indeed, but it's not up for debate that written word was around long before the Tanak ever saw the light.
The tanak is the result of written word being around, not vice versa.

Written word being around for about 6000 years is not actually in doubt anywhere. Besides that, Judaism is very unlikely to even be the first religion.

And advances seem to follow an exponential curve, so the amount of progress over the last 100 years are by no means an indication of advances of the 500 years before that.

i am truly puzzled by that post

 

[Pako]

The Torah has been around since the beginning of history? where do you get that idea.
And how you go from 'how long written word has been around is up for debate' to 'the torah has been around since the beginning of history' is a mystery to me.

First, let me ask you: What language was the Torah written in originally? and what are the implications of the answer to that question?

what the first 'written word' was is still up for debate indeed, but it's not up for debate that written word was around long before the Tanak ever saw the light.
The tanak is the result of written word being around, not vice versa.

Written word being around for about 6000 years is not actually in doubt anywhere. Besides that, Judaism is very unlikely to even be the first religion.

And advances seem to follow an exponential curve, so the amount of progress over the last 100 years are by no means an indication of advances of the 500 years before that.

i am truly puzzled by that post

There was a tortoise shell found with carvings on it dating back 6000 years. What's debatable is whether or not the carvings are complicated enough to be characterized as 'written language'.

I am by no means an expert on written language, just going off of a quick Google.

Why are you boggled? What's so confusing?

Advances in our civilization is exponential, I was merely trying to put 3,000 years into more perspective.

Edited
I was mis-reading, some of the readings stated writing as old as 3500 BC, not 3500 years old. That would date some of these early writings 2000 years older than the Torah.

 

[Touring Mars]

As far as proof that would change your mind, if God came and knocked on your door, would you recognize Him?

Probably not, but as for the proof, it would be a simple matter of asking Him a simple question that only I know the answer to and see if he got it right or not. Pretty simple test, but it would be enough for me. To be fair, there is almost any number of things God could do to help persuade me of His existence, but it has never happened yet - not hard things either, but very simple things. (And shouldn't an omnipotent God already know what I'd accept as evidence? And if so, why should I even need to ask the question??)

Bear in mind that I was not always an atheist - my parents and school didn't force God down my throat, but they tacitly accepted His existence and hence so did I. However, as I grew older, tacit acceptance wasn't enough, and it became increasingly apparent to me that even if God exists, he doesn't respond to scrutiny (hence why I think that even my simplest of requests/tests will fall on deaf ears). It seems that one's ability (or lack of ability) to detect God is directly related to one's faith (or lack of it) - so much so that I'd argue that they are actually the same thing. If you believe in God, you can see the signs of His existence everywhere. If you don't, you won't. This only supports my view that God only truly exists in the minds of believers.

 

[Pako]

Probably not, but as for the proof, it would be a simple matter of asking Him a simple question that only I know the answer to and see if he got it right or not. Pretty simple test, but it would be enough for me. To be fair, there is almost any number of things God could do to help persuade me of His existence, but it has never happened yet - not hard things either, but very simple things. (And shouldn't an omnipotent God already know what I'd accept as evidence? And if so, why should I even need to ask the question??)

Bear in mind that I was not always an atheist - my parents and school didn't force God down my throat, but they tacitly accepted His existence and hence so did I. However, as I grew older, tacit acceptance wasn't enough, and it became increasingly apparent to me that even if God exists, he doesn't respond to scrutiny (hence why I think that even my simplest of requests/tests will fall on deaf ears). It seems that one's ability (or lack of ability) to detect God is directly related to one's faith (or lack of it) - so much so that I'd argue that they are actually the same thing. If you believe in God, you can see the signs of His existence everywhere. If you don't, you won't. This only supports my view that God only truly exists in the minds of believers.

I get that. I have had those same thought processes and have entertained that idea myself.

 

[mindwise]

Why are you boggled? What's so confusing?

fair question, (though i thought i explained in the previous post, i know i am sometimes vague )
I was boggled by two things:

One was the the way in which you seem (to me at least) to claim that the Torah was around since the beginning of history.
Especially since you defined in that very post what would count as the beginning of history (the link to wiki describing that would be when writing started) and moreover that when writing began is not exactly known.

so I was/am puzzled by how you went from uncertain beginning of history to decreeing that the Torah was there right from the start. (perhaps i was just reading you wrong).

Another thing i wondered about was the 3500 years. I thought you first presented it as an uncertain number (some sites say) and then i thought you were bringing that number as a certain number (putting into perspective how long that many years actually is (with a bad example imo especially because of the exponential nature of the advances)).

Edited
I was mis-reading, some of the readings stated writing as old as 3500 BC, not 3500 years old. That would date some of these early writings 2000 years older than the Torah.

Does that edit in any way change your view on what you wrote about the Torah being around since the beginning of history?

edit Thanks for the clarification Pako

 

[Pako]

Does that edit in any way change your view on what you wrote about the Torah being around since the beginning of history?

Sure it does as the beginning of history is defined by the origin of written language (according to Historians, according to Wikipedia). I was off on my facts by about.....oh......2,000 years or so.

 

[homeforsummer]

3300 years is a really long time if you stop to think about it.

It is indeed a long time, though personally numbers like that have ceased to have any significance given all the research I've been doing into astronomy recently, and the widespread usage of numbers in the multiples of billions, and greater

What I'm prepared to acknowledge on the subject of belief in Gods is that even if writings about Gods have only come about in the last few thousand years, I'm pretty sure humans have been believing in a higher power since they developed the concept of self-awareness and thought beyond simple instinct (became, in effect, civilised). It'll have provided the same "answers" that religion does for those who follow it today.

But that said again, belief in something doesn't necessarily mean it exists. And given that there are so many different Gods worshipped by different religions (and in the past, so many more, such as those of Greek or Roman mythology), whose is the "real" God? Maybe they're all real. Maybe, as I believe, none of them are real!. (This section written small as we've sort of covered it before, I just wanted to put it in my own words...)

 

[Joey D]

What I'm prepared to acknowledge on the subject of belief in Gods is that even if writings about Gods have only come about in the last few thousand years, I'm pretty sure humans have been believing in a higher power since they developed the concept of self-awareness and thought beyond simple instinct (became, in effect, civilised). It'll have provided the same "answers" that religion does for those who follow it today.

Humans were in fact believing in higher powers before we transformed ourselves into civilisations. Through archaeology we find figures/idols, cave paintings, even things like the early henge's in the UK. There is even documented cases of Neanderthals having some sort of ceremony with burring their dead, I believe the example is in the Shanidar (sp?) Cave in Iraq. This is often seen as something religious in nature.

 

[homeforsummer]

You misunderstand. I consider those peoples the forerunner of civilised society. What I'm inferring is that there have likely been deities since humans became self aware and aware of the world beyond their instinctive nature.

I find it very unlikely that animals believe in Gods - they simply care about their instinctive natures to survive, feed, breed and sleep. Before humans became "civilised" this is essentially what they were like too - instinctive.

As a simple illustrative example - not questioning why the sun rises, but simply using it as a sign to wake up. When a species goes from the latter to the former, then they are also capable of constructing a God figure in order to explain the unexplainable.

Then I'd argue on top of that, that scientific discovery can be used to explain the previously unexplainable and the need for a God figure is reduced. An example of this would be Genesis. Before the theory of the Big Bang, the story of God creating the world in six days and resting on the seventh (for Christians, at the least - I don't know what stories other religions have for the creation of the universe) was pretty much the best people had.

All theories are well and good until something better comes along. People believed the Earth was flat, then in a couple of centuries BC people started discovering it was spherical. The more likely and scientifically proven theory becomes the generally accepted "correct" one. It's a better explanation, so it's the one we use.

 

[mindwise]

To add some heat to the debate, (as it seems to have cooled a tad too much)


(i did not make this video (obviously), it just reflects my view in what i hope everyone can consider a funny take on religion.)
edit, i don't see the link working, i probably did something wrong, just in case:
here's the direct link

 

[Kneedragger]

Is it possible to have a specific belief in god that does not by definition divide and separate yourself from others?

To quote one of my favorite life forms:
"All being is important, and has a validity beyond any religion or science.. that
is the message, which you are trying to give, -to yourself."

 

[Shannon]

Seriously, if God created the human race, how come he was only first written about 3000ish years ago?

Exactly the question I asked a few pages ago, and the reason I doubt the validity of modern religion. DNA evidence proves Homo sapiens have been around for at least 200,000 years [link]. If God created the first humans (Adam and Eve), and was in direct communication with them, why then did it take another 197,000 years for word of him to arise? Surely an almighty deity that wishes to be worshiped would want human beings to know of him since he created them, no?

 

[Skynyrd1977]

We're all trying to "explain" God to be understood by our human minds. It's not going to happen.

And believing in God is not the same as following Him. One could decide to believe that God does exist, and choose not to participate. According to the Bible, Satan rebelled against God. He certainly knew that God existed; he was in heaven with Him at the time. But he chose to lead a rebellion and was cast out.

So mere belief alone does not determine the outcome.

 

[mindwise]

So mere belief alone does not determine the outcome.

Going to church every Sunday doesn't give you a ticket to eternal life, belief in Jesus does. John 3:16 says that who ever believes in him will not parish but have eternal life.

well, never mind that.

And believing in God is not the same as following Him. One could decide to believe that God does exist.

Skynyrd, can you 'decide to believe' you can fly, or that leprechauns exist? or could it be that it's not that simple?

We're all trying to "explain" God to be understood by our human minds. It's not going to happen.

Well, as someone that has never heard a good explanation of god, i agree that it may not ever happen, but i disagree we're all trying to explain god, i don't try to explain what i do not think exists....

What i am trying, is to explain why so many people believe in something that on one hand -apparently- is unexplainable, undetectable, undefinable etc, but on the other hand 'omnipresent' creator of everything etc.

According to the Bible

The sun stood still for a day, donkeys, snakes and burning bushes talk, etc.. well.. i'm sure you understand that 'according to the bible' is not terribly impressive to skeptics
Apart from that, comparing humans to satan (in the sense of the decision making process) seems a bit off to me. (and i'm lacking an explanation of satan too, i mean satan, angels, what are you talking about?) (edit, you did not actually mention angels, but i was told that satan is fallen angel, whatever that means)

Question:
If i know the future, and foresee one week from now i will buy ham/cheese croissants at a bakery, can i change my mind one week from now and choose to go to Mickey D for a burger in stead, or must i buy the croissants as foreseen?
Doesn't it seem like a knowable future, negates choice?

and a small correction to your sig; i think it's 'limburger' ;p

 

[Skynyrd1977]

Thanks on the sig heads-up. 👍

be back later...

 

[Lucas]

Wish I could believe in something that I can't see and hear. But faith... it's okay to have faith, but be careful with what you believe in. Be ready to be dissapointed sometimes.

 

[Duke]

Wish I could believe in something that I can't see and hear.

I don't! 👍

 

[Lucas]

True. What I should have said was:
"Wish people that believe in God open their eyes to the truth."
Sadly, I know that my argument is going to be questioned in further posts...

 

[Wolfe]

I don't! 👍

If a tree falls in the woods and you're not there...