Do you believe in God?

[Zoom!Zoom!]

What a surprise, another complete misunderstanding of what atheism means.

Atheism doesn't need proof of anything because it's not claiming anything. Look at the picture below:

There's me in the middle of a circle. Let's say that circle represents the world as I see it; a world defined by logic and reason and only containing things I have evidence for.

There are things outside of that circle that I don't believe in. I don't actively make definitive claims that none of these things exist, I just choose not to believe in them without evidence.

Now, are you requiring that I prove that dragons don't exist? No, you're not. Why?

Are you saying I'm ignorant because I don't believe in unicorns? No, you're not. Why?

See what I'm getting at here? You recognize my non-belief in those things as logical, you don't demand that I prove my disbelief (which is a ridiculous demand in any context) and you don't think me ignorant.

But when it comes to god, suddenly everybody wants to play by different rules. I say "I don't believe in god because there's no evidence of god's existence." What claim am I making that needs proof?

Now, if I instead said "I am 100% sure that there is not a god, and I will never, ever believe in one," you could make a somewhat reasonable demand that I prove that statement.

But I didn't say that. Why? Because that's not what atheism is about. The true ignorance in this entire thread is the constant inability of theists to even understand what they're trying to argue against.

Nice drawing but God is not on the same level as unicorns, dragons, leprechauns, or Santa Claus. This is what atheist do in order to hide or denial their own beliefs and world view. ( if unicorns happens to exist would make no difference in someone's belief in God.) While atheist by definition means not believing in God this is not the same as stating atheist have no beliefs of their own.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Doesn't matter to me what level he's on. It's all the same to me.

 

[Jubby]

And his last name is "Gonzalez".

Now that's funny.

Seriously, though. What about deities and beings (gods, demi-gods, etc) on a "higher" plane of existence?

A god is something/someone that we cannot fully understand. This is either made up because of a lack of something, or something existing that we cannot fully describe.

 

[superbike81]

Nice drawing but God is not on the same level as unicorns, dragons, leprechauns, or Santa Claus. This is what atheist do in order to hide or denial their own beliefs and world view. ( if unicorns happens to exist would make no difference in someone's belief in God.) While atheist by definition means not believing in God this is not the same as stating atheist have no beliefs of their own.

Most atheists are open to the idea that there may be an omnipotent being that created. However without solid, scientific, empirical evidence, we will not believe.

If i told you that my real name is actually Sebastian Vettel and I am a Formula 1 champion, would you just have faith that I'm telling the truth? Or what if I said that I am actually Jesus reincarnated, would you expect proof, or would you simply have faith that I'm not lying.

I believe that people can prove that Jesus existed, but no one can prove that he rose from the dead and is actually the son of God.

 

[niky]

Nice drawing but God is not on the same level as unicorns, dragons, leprechauns, or Santa Claus. This is what atheist do in order to hide or denial their own beliefs and world view. ( if unicorns happens to exist would make no difference in someone's belief in God.) While atheist by definition means not believing in God this is not the same as stating atheist have no beliefs of their own.

Nobody has tasted, touched or smelt a God, a unicorn, a dragon, a leprechaun or Santa Claus* (not to be confused with Saint Nicholas). So, by virtue or proof and/or physical existence, they are on the same level.

Though it is possible to create a "Unicorn" by grafting horn buds together to form a single spiral horn on a goat, a goat is not a unicorn. And even if you could graft a horn onto a horse, a horse still doesn't have cloven hooves like a Unicorn is supposed to have. Nor the power to purify poison.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I think Zoom! Zoom! was saying that there's a fundamental difference between believing in the existence of God and in believing in the existence of a legendary animal. And, in my opinion, that is SELF evident. But I'll try to elaborate, before someone else says again

"both unproven and unprovable, so equal in my book"

1 - Belief in a legendary animal, or person - Doesn't affect anything about the way you perceive your own existence and of everything around you.

2 - Belief in God almighty, Creator of the Universe(s) and of each and every creature in it, including YOU, Ruler of everything you can see, of everything you can't see, Alpha and Omega of all things you can and can't conceive, Begining with no End and End with no Beggining, Omnipresent in this Universe but not a part of it, Ominiscient of all and every action from all and every being, Omnipotent too, etc, etc, etc ....

Can you spot the difference? I'm sure you can.

 

[dylansan]

Doesn't change the fact that I require evidence to believe either one.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I understand that. As I understand that a person and a tree are both alive.

 

[Denur]

I think Zoom! Zoom! was saying that there's a fundamental difference between believing in the existence of God and in believing in the existence of a legendary animal. And, in my opinion, that is SELF evident. But I'll try to elaborate, before someone else says again

"both unproven and unprovable, so equal in my book"

1 - Belief in a legendary animal, or person - Doesn't affect anything about the way you perceive your own existence and of everything around you.

2 - Belief in God almighty, Creator of the Universe(s) and of each and every creature in it, including YOU, Ruler of everything you can see, of everything you can't see, Alpha and Omega of all things you can and can't conceive, Begining with no End and End with no Beggining, Omnipresent in this Universe but not a part of it, Ominiscient of all and every action from all and every being, Omnipotent too, etc, etc, etc ....

Can you spot the difference? I'm sure you can.

I think a child that still believes in Santa, will disagree with you.

 

[TheCracker]

I think Zoom! Zoom! was saying that there's a fundamental difference between believing in the existence of God and in believing in the existence of a legendary animal. And, in my opinion, that is SELF evident. But I'll try to elaborate, before someone else says again

"both unproven and unprovable, so equal in my book"

1 - Belief in a legendary animal, or person - Doesn't affect anything about the way you perceive your own existence and of everything around you.

2 - Belief in God almighty, Creator of the Universe(s) and of each and every creature in it, including YOU, Ruler of everything you can see, of everything you can't see, Alpha and Omega of all things you can and can't conceive, Begining with no End and End with no Beggining, Omnipresent in this Universe but not a part of it, Ominiscient of all and every action from all and every being, Omnipotent too, etc, etc, etc ....

Can you spot the difference? I'm sure you can.

This part only applies if you are a believer. From an atheists point of view, both are still just works of fiction.

Most atheists are open to the idea that there may be an omnipotent being that created. However without solid, scientific, empirical evidence, we will not believe.

That's known as being an agnostic. Atheists by definition totally reject the concept of god or gods.

 

[superbike81]

I think Santa is God-like to children. Apparently he lives forever, knows when your naughty or nice, and rewards you with gifts for good behavior. LOL!

My son will not be raised being told lies about things like Santa, the tooth fairy, and God. If he chooses later in life to become a theist, I will not punish nor praise him though.

 

[superbike81]

This part only applies if you are a believer. From an atheists point of view, both are still just works of fiction.



That's known as being an agnostic. Atheists by definition totally reject the concept of god or gods.

Agnostics fall into the category of negative atheists. There are different levels of atheism.

Example: one of my good friends absolutely despises the idea of a deity. He also has a tattoo of the atheist symbol over his heart. He is a positive/strong atheist where I am a negative/weak atheist.

 

[Exorcet]

1 - Belief in a legendary animal, or person - Doesn't affect anything about the way you perceive your own existence and of everything around you.

I'm on a trip in the amazon. I get bit by a snake and poisoned, and I didn't take a cell phone with me. I believe in Unicorns though, so I start searching for one to cure myself.

I live out in a rural area without many neighbors. I believe in dragons, so I build my house of a concrete to avoid it catching fire, I also have a stockpile of FIM-92 missiles in my basement that I wasted thousands of dollars on.

I follow some kind of religion. My friend gets sick. This religion teaches that only God can cure the sick, so I don't take my friend to the hospital, I pray for him.

Believing in something imaginary can have negative effects.

 

[BobK]

What?!

Provide evidence for your hypothesis that Jesus didn't exist. Jesus' life is a historical fact just as the fact that the Roman Empire invaded Britain.

At no time did I ever advance a hypothesis that Jesus didn't exist, and for the life of me I can't imagine where you got the idea that I had. I invite you to backtrack through my posts here and tell me where I said that. I realize that may be difficult for you to do, since you seem to be in the habit of removing the backlink when you quote somebody and I wonder if perhaps you do that because you really don't want people to doublecheck claims you make.

Reread my post. All I said was your scholars disagreed with Mr. Russell.

In this particular case, as a matter of fact I find myself more in agreement with your Biblical scholars than with Mr. Russell; I am inclined to believe that Jesus the man did in fact exist, that he was born around 4 BC, that he was both a carpenter and a rabbi, that he disagreed with the Jewish elders and was crucified at Pilate's direction at the instigation of the aforesaid elders. However I do not accept many of the more extraordinary claims made about the man.

Apropos of nothing, in high school I had a friend named Jesus, and his brothers Manuel and Heriberto.

 

[huskeR32]

Nice drawing but God is not on the same level as unicorns, dragons, leprechauns, or Santa Claus. This is what atheist do in order to hide or denial their own beliefs and world view. ( if unicorns happens to exist would make no difference in someone's belief in God.) While atheist by definition means not believing in God this is not the same as stating atheist have no beliefs of their own.

You may have created some arbitrary levels for yourself so that you can classify various unproven beings, and that's fine. But in reality, evidence for the existence of all five of those things is equally lacking. Therefore, I put them all on the same level of non-belief.

And the whole point of comparing those five things was this:

Now, are you requiring that I prove that dragons don't exist? No, you're not. Why?

Are you saying I'm ignorant because I don't believe in unicorns? No, you're not. Why?

See what I'm getting at here? You recognize my non-belief in those things as logical, you don't demand that I prove my disbelief (which is a ridiculous demand in any context) and you don't think me ignorant.

Care to actually address that part?

As for this...

1 - Belief in a legendary animal, or person - Doesn't affect anything about the way you perceive your own existence and of everything around you.

2 - Belief in God almighty, Creator of the Universe(s) and of each and every creature in it, including YOU, Ruler of everything you can see, of everything you can't see, Alpha and Omega of all things you can and can't conceive, Begining with no End and End with no Beggining, Omnipresent in this Universe but not a part of it, Ominiscient of all and every action from all and every being, Omnipotent too, etc, etc, etc ....

Can you spot the difference? I'm sure you can.

I can also spot the difference: Theists place arbitrary value on one of those five things, but not the other four. The difference is in your mind.

In reality:

"both unproven and unprovable, so equal in my book"

Exactly 👍

 

[CodeRedR51]

Exactly 👍

+2 👍

 

[Ecchi-BANZAII!!]

I don't believe in Santa, Tooth fairy, Jesus, God or any other superstitious made up people.
If you already aren't an atheist, go to reddit.com/r/atheism.
And if that doesn't make you realize then you're beyond hope.

 

[Strittan]

Nice drawing but God is not on the same level as unicorns, dragons, leprechauns, or Santa Claus.

To YOU he's not on the same level, because you believe in him, but to ME and other atheists he is.

To be fair, Santa Claus is actually more likely to exist than God, because Santa is not claimed to have created the universe. He's just claimed to be this old man in a red suit giving presents to kids.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I can also spot the difference: Theists place arbitrary value on one of those five things, but not the other four. The difference is in your mind.

Yep, we tend to do that, the different value we assign to a human and to a tree come to mind. Thank GOD (pun intended) we are able to think and therefore differentiate them, and to assign them different values. All in the head, you see? Oh right, you don't.

Exactly 👍

+2 👍

Yep ... why am I not really surprised.

I don't believe in Santa, Tooth fairy, Jesus, God or any other superstitious made up people.
If you already aren't an atheist, go to reddit.com/r/atheism.
And if that doesn't make you realize then you're beyond hope.

You're right, I just visited that site. Still believe in God. I'm beyond hope. LOL

 

[huskeR32]

Yep ... why am I not really surprised.

Thanks for keeping the sarcasm and disrespect out of the conversation.

One more time, how about addressing the real point here:

Now, are you requiring that I prove that dragons don't exist? No, you're not. Why?

Are you saying I'm ignorant because I don't believe in unicorns? No, you're not. Why?

See what I'm getting at here? You recognize my non-belief in those things as logical, you don't demand that I prove my disbelief (which is a ridiculous demand in any context) and you don't think me ignorant.

Your continued refusal to even try and respond to this is very telling.

EDIT:

I don't believe in Santa, Tooth fairy, Jesus, God or any other superstitious made up people.
If you already aren't an atheist, go to reddit.com/r/atheism.
And if that doesn't make you realize then you're beyond hope.

I would just like to take the opportunity to say that even though I'm an atheist, I don't think this way. This kind of talk contributes nothing to the conversation.

 

[Strittan]

You're right, I just visited that site. Still believe in God. I'm beyond hope. LOL

I'd ignore that guy if I were you. You're allowed to believe whatever you want. Everyone is.

What annoys me however, is religious people trying to convince non-believers that God exists and/or says that things can be done in the name of atheism.

 

[Ecchi-BANZAII!!]

Strittan
This message is hidden because Strittan is on your ignore list.

*
Try to be high and mighty somewhere else.
Try that place nere vid ICA.
You have a point, the in your face religious people are the worst.

Worst of all is that the Bible is a sexist woman hating book that says that women shouldn't teach and should instead be quiet.
Some of the stuff from the real bible (old testament) ain't really morally acceptable at all.

* = I don't "believe" in ignore list.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Thanks for keeping the sarcasm and disrespect out of the conversation.

One more time, how about addressing the real point here:



Your continued refusal to even try and respond to this is very telling.

EDIT:


I would just like to take the opportunity to say that even though I'm an atheist, I don't think this way. This kind of talk contributes nothing to the conversation.

No it isn't. What is indeed telling is the fact is that you refuse to address my point. I'll try to be "simpler" in putting it forward:

1 - The belief in a legendary beast or in any other form a legendary CREATURE is un-related and un-comparable to the belief in a CREATOR.

2 - The belief in a CREATURE doesn't change anything about the perception of the world, and of ourselves. It's just another companion on this planet (or - if you're talking litle green men from Mars or from any other planet in any other galaxy - in this Universe).

3 - The belief in a CREATOR changes, by the very definition of it, and by the very consequence that it makes us his CREATURES in the true sense of this word (and not a mere result of the passing of time and the evolutionary process) our perception of this world, and of who we are.


Is this clear now?

EDIT: Added HuskeR32's quote to make clear who I was responding to. And Strittan thanks for the advice, I'll try to figure out how to put someone in the ignore list, never used that feature.


RE-EDIT: Strittan, I have many good atheist friends and I'm talking about people I meet in my everyday life. They respect my beliefs as I respect their non-beliefs, as good friends should. That's not to say I don't get some jibes and jokes from them here and there, because I do, or that I don't retort with some of my own, because I also do. But all in good fun. I'm no different in gtplanet, although here discussions tend to get a lot more heated (it's the "internetzz" ). But my point here is not, never was the "conversion" of others, (I would say "I couldn't care less" but God might be reading and wouldn't like it LOL )

Fun jokes aside, I'm just (sometimes heatly) debating and - by doing it - saying what I think.

 

[Exorcet]

2 - The belief in a CREATURE doesn't change anything about the perception of the world, and of ourselves. It's just another companion on this planet (or - if you're talking litle green men from Mars or from any other planet in any other galaxy - in this Universe).

Is my last post invisible?

And for the record if believing in unicorns or whatever has no effect on someone, then I consider them "safer" than religion.

 

[CodeRedR51]

To YOU he's not on the same level, because you believe in him, but to ME and other atheists he is.

To be fair, Santa Claus is actually more likely to exist than God, because Santa is not claimed to have created the universe. He's just claimed to be this old man in a red suit giving presents to kids.

Yet another 👍.

I could do this all day.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Is my last post invisible?

And for the record if believing in unicorns or whatever has no effect on someone, then I consider them "safer" than religion.

Sorry, I missed it entirely. But the examples you give are just examples of how you believing in something can make you act wrong. And I understand that people can do wrong things based on religious belief, I won't argue that. But, then again, people can take wrong decisions because of many other factors.

But, back to my original distinction of relevance in the belief in God (vs. the relative irrelevance of the belief in dragons or unicorns), that it exists is exactly why you, being an atheist, think the religious belief is the most dangerous of all the beliefs in realities you don't believe yourself. Because the religious belief is about the entire person, how she sees herself, how she sees the world around her, and ultimately how she acts and what moral code she tries to follow through her life.

 

[superbike81]

RE-EDIT: Strittan, I have many good atheist friends and I'm talking about people I meet in my everyday life. They respect my beliefs as I respect their non-beliefs, as good friends should. That's not to say I don't get some jibes and jokes from them here and there, because I do, or that I don't retort with some of my own, because I also do. But all in good fun. I'm no different in gtplanet, although here discussions tend to get a lot more heated (it's the "internetzz" ). But my point here is not, never was the "conversion" of others, (I would say "I couldn't care less" but God might be reading and wouldn't like it LOL )

Respecting their atheism is a good thing, in modern society. But if you really followed the bible, shouldn't be doing everything you can to convert them into believers? I might be wrong, as I haven't read the entire bible (but I have read most of it, once) but doesn't it say to get into heaven, therefore pleasing your God, that you must spread the word to everyone (including non-believers)?


On a related note (not directed at Hun200kmh at all):

You know what pisses me off MUCH more than religious people pushing their religion on others? HALF-A$$ED religious people. I think we all know what I'm talking about. The people who will sin on pretty much a daily basis and are generally POS humans, but then they go to church every week and claim they are good people because of it. If you put so much faith in God and Jesus, you need to follow that holy book of yours and actually do what it's telling you to do. Being a drug pusher/criminal/etc during the week and a "holy man" on Sundays is completely wrong.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I'm spreading the word, am I not ?

(did I say I am a good catholic? I didn't, so I'm not into "spreading the word" as in ... convert all infidels!! I'm just holding my ground here, and frankly I like to do it. Not a converter, more a debater sort of guy )

 

[superbike81]

I'm spreading the word, am I not ?

(did I say I am a good catholic? I didn't, so I'm not into "spreading the word" as in ... convert all infidels!! I'm just holding my ground here, and frankly I like to do it. Not a converter, more a debater sort of guy )

Herein lies the problem I was talking about. If you truly believe in God, and are "God-fearing" like you are supposed to be, why are you not following the bible as it is written? You say you aren't a "good catholic" so you aren't following God's will, right? So what makes you qualified to spread the word of Jesus and the Bible when you can't even follow it whole-heartedly yourself?

 

[Hun200kmh]

Hey I'm not qualified to spread the word nor did I ever claim to be.

And I'm no saint either but I can tell you that I do try, to the best of my human capacity, to follow "whole-heartedly" the word of Jesus.