Do you believe in God?

  • Thread starter Patrik
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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 624 30.6%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,051 51.5%

  • Total voters
    2,042
The torah and the bible are also book of GOD but people changed these book and it isn't now true words of GOD. As i said, if no one changed the bible, islam wouldn't come.
Jews wasn't the first civilisation, right. But at the time of Moses ( peace be upon him ) , the religion was against pharaon. Torah was the first book of GOD but there always were a prophet to follow as Ibrahim or Noe ( peace be upon him ) . All other old civilisation were wrong but these prophet were fighting against them.
 
How do you know that your book is the true book, without referring to your book?

Because it documents people that spoke to God and they have a list of demands for us!! duuh!

You God Damned Atheist!!

I Pray everyday that you will one day wake up and have acquired the insight to know that the one true deity that exploded stars for millenia in order to accumulate the quanitity of elements & compounds needed for life here on earth, have a strange relationship with a primate species & put most of his remaining time into hating homosexuals, is the all powerful loving father & lord.

He died for you... be grateful.. you &^**^^&**&!!!.

Let me tell you a little story.
When my uncle was sick, he was not getting better & was going to die.
Until I prayed for him, the Lord took his mind off all the starving & dieing children in the world.
He took his mind off all the pain in the world to help me. Why? Becuase I prayed, and that somehow gives me priority for miracles.

Good day sir.

I leave and refer you to this true story about how God helped a young christian soldier in a predominantly atheist regimen of an army. Gross misuse of God's resources here.
 
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You know... jeeps can actually run without engines.

It's just those damn hydraulically assisted brakes that are the problem.
 
How do you know that your book is the true book, without referring to your book?

Because it contains many signs and miracles

Because it documents people that spoke to God and they have a list of demands for us!! duuh!

You God Damned Atheist!!

I Pray everyday that you will one day wake up and have acquired the insight to know that the one true deity that exploded stars for millenia in order to accumulate the quanitity of elements & compounds needed for life here on earth, have a strange relationship with a primate species & put most of his remaining time into hating homosexuals, is the all powerful loving father & lord.

He died for you... be grateful.. you &^**^^&**&!!!.

Let me tell you a little story.
When my uncle was sick, he was not getting better & was going to die.
Until I prayed for him, the Lord took his mind off all the starving & dieing children in the world.
He took his mind off all the pain in the world to help me. Why? Becuase I prayed, and that somehow gives me priority for miracles.

Good day sir.

I leave and refer you to this true story about how God helped a young christian soldier in a predominantly atheist regimen of an army. Gross misuse of God's resources here.

Here is a good christian who believes jesus was GOD. False.
Question. Then what do you call the trinity if jesus is GOD?
 
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Signs and miracles that have been historically documented by various sources... where?

The vast majority were not discovered since 100 years but they were written in the quran since 1400 years.
 
Can you give some examples?

One exemple, if you want more, i can give you a lots more, but you should see that with one evidence, you don't need other. And know that if you don't accept with reality, it is because your heart isn't opened, and ALLAH said that even if he sends angels as miracles to us, kafiran ( disbelievers ) won't accept if ALLAH don't want it because he has control on everything. So try to open your mind more.
http://youtu.be/MD3gSGqC1QI
Whatch until the end ( 7 minutes )
 
If you have that, you don't have faith. Pick one.

If just everybody, theists and atheists, really understood that. :indiff:

This thread basically evolved into fruitlessness. Starting out as a thread about belief in God (Y/N) , it became a thread about the scientific demonstration of God (Y/N) .

Since science doesn't prove (nor disprove) God, I urge atheists to stop asking for it.

And I do urge theists to not make themselves look like fools by even trying to answer such a question. I won't even regard the question as serious, because it isn't. It's just not "answer-worthy".

I do believe in God, and I do believe there's more to us than what science can reach. My opinion, of course, won't go calling names, or look down to those that think differently.
 
One exemple, if you want more, i can give you a lots more, but you should see that with one evidence, you don't need other. And know that if you don't accept with reality, it is because your heart isn't opened, and ALLAH said that even if he sends angels as miracles to us, kafiran ( disbelievers ) won't accept if ALLAH don't want it because he has control on everything. So try to open your mind more.
http://youtu.be/MD3gSGqC1QI
Whatch until the end ( 7 minutes )
49.9 ≠ 50.1

Sirius is a binary star system consisting of two white stars orbiting each other with a separation of about 20 astronomical units and a period of 50.1 years.
Source
 
Why would I believe something without evidence? Pick this one

What he meant was, evidence denies faith, as faith is belief without evidence (please tell me I got that right Famine, it's simple enough :lol:).

Faith: "Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof."

Or, to be more pedantic, you don't "believe" something when there is evidence for it, you accept/acknowledge it as truth, whereas you believe something when there is no proof. Basically, when there is evidence for something, it negates the need for belief because whatever it was that you believed has been proven to be truth, so you simply acknowledge it as truth, and stop believing it to be truth.

Did I just say the same thing in two different ways?
 
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Knowing that the Quran is the book of GOD, he makes no error. The real value in the website is 50,09 +- 0,05 . I think that GOD's calculation are better and without doubt.
Yes, I don't expect any god to make errors. If it does, than it ceases to be a god.
 
Why would I believe something without evidence? Pick this one
Have you read anything I posted in the last three days?
I explained why not in my answer to you.

However on a more fundamental basis, religion is faith - belief - whereas truth requires evidence. Evidence denies faith - you cannot believe in something that is proven, only in what you do not have proof for. Thus the concept of one religion being "the one true" religion - the one you have proof for - is a denial of the essence of religion itself.

Be secure enough in your beliefs to believe in them without seeking proof. Don't try to prove them because that denies your beliefs.
You can only believe in things for which you don't have evidence. If you have evidence it ceases to become belief.

So either you believe in Allah and are faithful or you have evidence for Allah and are unfaithful. Can't do both.
 
If that's the case Famine, then why did the Egyptians demand Moses to display god's power? Why did the Jesus make the fish and wine to the sceptical. You can have evidence and belief. To us Muslims the Quran is evidence enough. As it was directly revealed to the prophet with witnesses present.

Not trying to be a smart ass or anything, but to have belief you gotta have evidence to help strengthen that belief.

The only argument really is what constitutes as evidence.
 
I think we're splitting hairs a bit now, if somebody asked me if I believe in gravity I would say "yes", not "no, on the grounds that its proven to exist"....

I also agree that the discussion could be a little more constructive. My 'faith' is undecided, so I'm not really taking anything personally but some people are being pretty rude about people's beliefs.
 
If that's the case Famine, then why did the Egyptians demand Moses to display god's power? Why did the Jesus make the fish and wine to the sceptical. You can have evidence and belief.
As soon as you have evidence of something, you cannot believe in it. You can only accept it to be true - or disbelieve it.

To believe in something you either must have no evidence or no understanding of the evidence. Thus you can believe in things that have evidence simply through not understanding the evidence - that's why we have people saying they believe in evolution or gravity.

Belief - and faith - is what occurs when there is a lack of evidence.
To us Muslims the Quran is evidence enough. As it was directly revealed to the prophet with witnesses present.
Would the Qu'ran be less evidential if the witnesses weren't there? Or if it were revealed to a different individual with the same witnesses? Or if it were some individuals saying it was revealed when really it wasn't?

You merely believe that Allah revealed it himself (for which there is no evidence besides the Qu'ran) to Mohammed (for which there is no evidence besides the Qu'ran) to some witnesses (for which there is no evidence besides the Qu'ran). There is no evidence besides the book itself for this series of events - and that's no evidence at all. Thus it's taken entirely on faith.

This is fine, of course.
Not trying to be a smart ass or anything, but to have belief you gotta have evidence to help strengthen that belief.

The only argument really is what constitutes as evidence.
Evidence only chips away at belief. It turns believing one side or the other into acceptance of one side over another.

Jeremy Clarkson - of all people! - once said that opinions are what you have when you don't have facts. With sufficient facts there is only what there is and what there is not and opinion becomes moot. So it is with belief and evidence.
I think we're splitting hairs a bit now, if somebody asked me if I believe in gravity I would say "yes", not "no, on the grounds that its proven to exist"....
Really? I'd say "What a bizarre question. How can I believe in something for which there is evidence? Do you 'believe in' the Sun? Do you 'believe in' your car? Or do you accept these things exist due to the evidence for them?". If they insisted on asking the question in that format, I'd refuse to answer on the grounds their question is weighted - "yes" means you operate on belief, "no" means you reject gravity - and I'd assume they were Fox/Sky/BBC News trying to generate a "Gosh how stupid people are" poll.

It's perfectly fine, of course, to say you 'believe in' the evidence for gravitation simply because it's so mind-bogglingly complex that it's borderline meaningless for many people. However it's more sensible to say you accept the evidence that has been proposed, tested, verified and independently reviewed myriad times.


This is part of the reason that all religious people everywhere should reject and feel insulted by "Intelligent Design" and "Creation Science". They're taking beliefs and using lies to dress them up as evidence, which undermines the nature of belief. Also, I'm fairly sure most religions abhor liars.
 
...makes for a wonderful dilemma for yourself. You see as a Christian you have to renounce all other Gods and worship "the one true God", as such you have just given yourself the burden of proof in regard to every god that has ever been claimed to exist.

I await either your proof of this or your renunciation of Christianity.

I hope that makes it quite clear just how ridiculous your attempt to shift the burden of proof is in this regard (oh can you do Unicorns and Santa while you are at it).

Why would a belief need proof, as it is a belief? You assume that my belief in God is based on rational proof, don't you? But you miss the main point of belief itself, that it doesn't need proof. If it has proof, it is not belief per se, but a fact.

But trying to prove a belief absolutely wrong, with the "proof" being other than just another belief, would need real proof, in the sense of scientific facts. But, as any belief is an absurd question in factual science, beliefs needn't be proved wrong, because they aren't backed up by facts. Like hypotheses needn't be proven wrong because they can just be disregarded until proven. Religious beliefs are disregarded by science because they aren't backed up by facts, but it doesn't necessarily make it false. Science's job is not to prove wrong, but to prove true. If we went the way of trying to prove everything wrong, it would be just a dead end because lack of proof either way.

Hence also scientific theories that aren't completely backed up by facts (ie. have unproven hypotheses as a part of the theory) aren't factual science, they're pretty much inexact. Say, as long as any part of the Superstring theory is not completely supported by (non-self-referencing) facts, seeing it as truth is as irrational as any belief, that just being an example. The hypotheses are just meant for speculation, not for believing. Yet I see many people who describe themselves as "rational" believe in such hypotheses.

Science doesn't prove anything wrong, because as long as there aren't enough facts to back something up, it can be disregarded due to inability to prove it either way. When it is completely backed up by facts, it is proven. There is no wrong in science, there is just right. Anything non-factual is not science; science just disregards belief but it doesn't deny it.

See: if I believe in some hypothesis that later turns out to be right, and it gets factual proof, I am right. However, by current science, should science try to prove anything false, my belief would be false because it doesn't have proof (as by your criteria for religion, for example). Right is false? Not because science proves no belief, no hypothesis false. It just proves some things true.


Except a very good chance exists that he didn't say that at all, its not in any of his works.

Indeed, Socrates didn't write anything, so there are no works by him.
His student, Plato did, though the wording was a bit different, that what I wrote was a common Western simplification. Here's a passage in Greek, from Plato's Apology, about Socrates speaking of his discussion with someone:

"τούτου μὲν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐγὼ σοφώτερός εἰμι· κινδυνεύει μὲν γὰρ ἡμῶν οὐδέτερος οὐδὲν καλὸν κἀγαθὸν εἰδέναι, ἀλλ' οὗτος μὲν οἴεται τι εἰδέναι οὐκ εἰδώς, ἐγὼ δέ, ὥσπερ οὖν οὐκ οἶδα, οὐδὲ οὄιμαι· ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μή οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰδέναι"

In English it roughly translates as:

"I am wiser than this man, for neither of us appears to know anything great and good; but he fancies he knows something, although he knows nothing; whereas I, as I do not know anything, so I do not fancy I do. In this trifling particular, then, I appear to be wiser than he, because I do not fancy I know what I do not know."
 
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TL;DR: Science doesn't prove anything wrong
Except that the entire operation of science is attempting to prove yourself wrong. Science (and thus the entire sum of knowledge) is founded on falsifiability - the ability to prove a concept to be false.
 
Except that the entire operation of science is attempting to prove yourself wrong. Science (and thus the entire sum of knowledge) is founded on falsifiability - the ability to prove a concept to be false.

See: if I believe in some hypothesis that later turns out to be right, and it gets factual proof, I am right. However, by current science, should science try to prove anything false, my belief would be false because it doesn't have proof (as by your [read: Scaff's] criteria for being false due to lack of proof, for example). Right is false? Not because science proves no belief, no hypothesis false. It just proves some things true.

Well, some things are proven false through proving some things true, but not true through proving false. By proving false (and it needs real proof, not just lack of proof to prove false), you just prove that it isn't that, it cannot be extended to anything other (eg. proving the Superstring theory false wouldn't prove any other hypotheses more true, it would still leave infinitely other possibilities, even some with just minimal differences to the one proven false). But by proving true, you prove all conflicting hypotheses false.

My point was also that nothing is proven false because of lack of proof.
 
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Have you read anything I posted in the last three days?You can only believe in things for which you don't have evidence. If you have evidence it ceases to become belief.

So either you believe in Allah and are faithful or you have evidence for Allah and are unfaithful. Can't do both.

I now know what you mean. But the word believer is stronger in the case of Quran because you accept reality and you believe in the invisible :
"Those who believe in the unseen." (Surah al-Baqarah, 2:2)
"With Him are the keys of all that is hidden. None but He knows them." (Surah al-An'am, 6:59)
 
"With Him are the keys of all that is hidden. None but He knows them." (Surah al-An'am, 6:59)
Why refer to that god as a male? Does it have balls and a penis? Are they perhaps the reason people go on their knees for him?
 
So "Just believe in your scripture rather than trying to prove it's true by selectively quoting it" is met by selectively quoting scripture. Nice.
Well, some things are proven false through proving some things true
No. Science doesn't seek to prove its hypotheses true. It seeks to prove them false. Our methods are transparent - we make every attempt to show we're wrong and you can go do them yourself and try even harder if you think we didn't try hard enough.
My point was also that nothing is proven false because of lack of proof.
Though anything that no proof can conceptually be obtained for - anything that cannot be falsified by the inability to prove it false - is proven false because it cannot be falsified. See Russell's Teapot.
 
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