Do you believe in God?

[Imari]

If you assume that god, a perfect being, can create (and created) imperfect things, you are assuming that religion doesn't make any logical sense. Abrahamic religions (chrisitanity, judaism, islam) assume that god is the origin of all good and perfect things and satan is the origin of sin and all imperfect things.*

If you open the possibility of a perfect god be able to create imperfect things, there is no worng with anything that's imperfect, there is no wrong with satan/lucifer, there is no wrong with sin and ultimately there is no wrong/evil.
If you assume that position, there are only created things, nor good or bad, because they both came from the same origin.

(This is more a deistic view than a theistic view of the world. A deist would say that a deity created the universe and that's all. Everything after that moment has no relation with that creator.)

I think it's a logical paradox to say that imperfection can came out from a perfect god. If god is perfect, everything he creates has to be perfect. If not, he's not perfect and he's not god.


* this idea has to many problems within it but I needed to use it because that's how religion says it is...

This is by far and away the most black and white view of the world I have ever seen.

 

[zzz_pt]

This is by far and away the most black and white view of the world I have ever seen.

This is not my view of the world. I'm just arguing against your position and trying to show its flaws. I do not believe in god. I was a christian for more than 27years and I've found the idea of god is nonsense.

You can think a way out of your position that god can create / have created imperfect things. Saying this is the most black and white view of the world I have ever seen doesn't do anything to prove what I just said is wrong.

Religious people have a black/white view of the world (heaven or hell) and if I'm arguing in this field I have to assume the same view.

 

[Imari]

I'm just arguing against your position and trying to show its flaws.

Woah there, Nellie. Whose position?

Saying this is the most black and white view of the world I have ever seen doesn't do anything to prove what I just said is wrong.

It wasn't intended to prove anything, so I don't know why you're treating it as such. It was merely my opinion of the views presented. I didn't even attribute them as your beliefs.

 

[zzz_pt]

I was expecting you to adress my points. I just made a point a few posts early this week that a perfect god can only creat perfect things. You brought the idea of god being able to creat imperfect things. I argued for my position and I was hoping for you to reply.

I'm just curious to see how would you defend what you've said taking in accout my latest point. I don't know if my point of view is correct. For me is more logical. But if it's not I would like to know why.

 

[Imari]

I was expecting you to adress my points. I just made a point a few posts early this week that a perfect god can only creat perfect things. You brought the idea of god being able to creat imperfect things. I argued for my position and I was hoping for you to reply.

I'm just curious to see how would you defend what you've said taking in accout my latest point. I don't know if my point of view is correct. For me is more logical. But if it's not I would like to know why.

Expect all you like. If I don't have the time I'm not going to give you huge replies.


As far as I can tell, your logic is the logic of definitions. You say that a perfect god can only create perfect things, because that's your definition of a perfect god.

There's no point arguing against that, and there's no logically undermining it. It's circular logic, it supports itself. So I'm unlikely to attempt to refute your points, as much as I am to ask for clarification where I feel that it's necessary.

For example:

Because if god can fail, he can not demand us to be perfect and condemn us to eternal hell for our failures.

Why not?

I'd quite like to see you address this. Why is it that someone who can fail (but not necessarily does fail) incapable of demanding perfecting and meting out punishment?


As far as the stuff you said previously.

you are assuming that religion doesn't make any logical sense.

Religion is more or less by definition illogical. It's a belief in something for which there is no objective evidence, and so is there for illogical. Still, some people seem to enjoy it.

I think it's a bit foolish to be criticising a religion for having an illogical God, when the religion is illogical from the word go.

If you open the possibility of a perfect god be able to create imperfect things, there is no worng with anything that's imperfect,

Why would there be anything wrong with imperfect things?

there is no wrong with satan/lucifer

Satan is not "wrong" simply because he is Satan. He's "wrong" (and I hope I know what you mean by that word) because he does evil things. Stuff isn't wrong simply because it exists.

there is no wrong with sin

Sin is not created, like a book or a flower or a person. It is performed. There is a major difference. But still, a lot of things that are sinful I can see nothing wrong with. Homosexuality, for instance.

and ultimately there is no wrong/evil.

I'd like to see someone prove that good and evil exist in the sense that some things are created evil or created good. Good and evil are convenient concepts for describing behaviours.

If god is perfect, everything he creates has to be perfect.

Why is this logically true?

If not, he's not perfect and he's not god.

Correction, he's not God, with a capital G. You're referring to one very specific incarnation of a god, the Judeo/Christian God. That God has extremely specific attributes that are logically impossible.

But since believing in him is logically untenable, and one of God's logically impossible attributes is that he can do anything even if it's logically impossible, I doubt it bothers many believers.

 

[dxld]

If there was a God who wanted to left a book to his creation, would be a book with no errors or contraditions.

You know... because god "is" perfect, he only could create perfect things.

We are perfect in God's image. We have our flaws and our strenghths which make up for those flaws. The enjoyment of life is striving to come near perfection.

 

[Danoff]

We are perfect in God's image.

If God's eyes are anything like our eyes, he's far from perfect. Because our eyes are really quite poorly constructed compared to how you'd do it if you sat down to build an eye logically.

 

[Liquid]

If God's eyes are anything like our eyes, he's far from perfect. Because our eyes are really quite poorly constructed compared to how you'd do it if you sat down to build an eye logically.

And he was a git by giving snakes infrared vision but not us.

Wasn't it the snake who effed it all up for us in the first place? Nice reward for the snake.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If God's eyes are anything like our eyes, he's far from perfect. Because our eyes are really quite poorly constructed compared to how you'd do it if you sat down to build an eye logically.

But what if they were actually exactly the same? "Us" could be the helix, we just become attached to thoughts of the human because that's our particular host?

I'm not ready to be agnostic just yet though.

 

[dxld]

If God's eyes are anything like our eyes, he's far from perfect. Because our eyes are really quite poorly constructed compared to how you'd do it if you sat down to build an eye logically.

Our eyes are Perfectly designed for our bodies, far more advanced than the lense $10,000 SLR Camera. What focuses faster? The Eyes that God created or a Camera Lense that man created?

 

[Exorcet]

Our eyes are Perfectly designed for our bodies

Including the blind spot?

 

[dxld]

Including the blind spot?

Yes including the blind spot, our eyes are strategically placed in a spot with optimal view.

 

[BobK]

Yes including the blind spot, our eyes are strategically placed in a spot with optimal view.

Our eyes would also be excellent tools for viewing your evidence that there were a million Jewish slaves in ancient Egypt. So how about backing up your claim and actually producing said evidence?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Our eyes are Perfectly designed for our bodies, far more advanced than the lense $10,000 SLR Camera. What focuses faster? The Eyes that God created or a Camera Lense that man created?

Those of use with eyes less suited to the way we lived just died off. More children were born with "better" eyes because there were more of them. As there were more of them, so there were more of them, and then more of them.

Try not to get stuck in the idea that a human is a very specific kind of life, spend a while on the web and look for all the things that contain DNA.

That's actually the thing that has multiplied, propogated, rehosted, the 'human' is a coincidental part of that. Our eyes are also perfectly well placed when we're pigeons, incidentally. Go figure.

 

[dxld]

BobK you don't want me to present you with the same evidence I have been presenting, so why ask me again and again and again and again??????

You know what I presented and that's it, you are not convinced, but those who are believers are convinced. You can't change my mind I can't change your mind.

You want to keep pressing me but I will not change my mind and all you will be doing is encouraging hostility in me instead of logical and entertaining discussion

 

[Spurgy 777]

Our eyes are Perfectly designed for our bodies, far more advanced than the lense $10,000 SLR Camera. What focuses faster? The Eyes that God created or a Camera Lense that man created?

Actually, our eyes make pretty awful cameras.

 

[BobK]

BobK you don't want me to present you with the same evidence I have been presenting, so why ask me again and again and again and again??????

No, of course not. That would be silly.

You know what I presented and that's it, you are not convinced, but those who are believers are convinced. You can't change my mind I can't change your mind.

Yes, I know what you've presented. You've demonstrated that were a million (give or take a few of course) Jews in ancient Egypt. Nobody's denying that. You've shown there were slaves in ancient Egypt. Nobody's arguing that either. What you have singularly failed to do is show any evidence whatsoever that there were a million Jewish slaves in ancient Egypt. That is, a million Jews who were also slaves. You have failed to make that connection. You tell us to "connect the dots". By the same "standard" of evidence, I can "prove" there were millions of white slaves in the US pre-Civil War south. There were millions of white people in the South. There were millions of slaves in the South. Ergo, there were millions of white slaves in the South. Never mind there is no conclusive evidence whatsoever of it, all you have to do is "connect the dots".

You want to keep pressing me but I will not change my mind and all you will be doing is encouraging hostility in me instead of logical and entertaining discussion

I will stop pressing you on this issue the instant you present real evidence that there were a million Jewish slaves in ancient Egypt, or withdraw the claim. That's the way it works around here; you make the claim, you present the evidence. You have failed to do so so far; the closest you've come is a document with a hundred names of slaves on it, some of which sound like they might, maybe, have been Jewish.

Alternatively, you can just withdraw the claim.

 

[Duke]

Our eyes are Perfectly designed for our bodies, far more advanced than the lense $10,000 SLR Camera. What focuses faster? The Eyes that God created or a Camera Lense that man created?

Really? Did you know that we have approximately 10x as many red/green receptors as blue receptors? That makes it awfully difficult to focus on and resolve items that are colored blue or lit with blue light. Try it tonight. NOT PERFECT.

Also, if our eyes were perfectly suited to our bodies, we'd have a useful cone of vision wider than 55-60 degrees.

 

[Famine]

BobK you don't want me to present you with the same evidence I have been presenting, so why ask me again and again and again and again??????

You know what I presented and that's it, you are not convinced, but those who are believers are convinced. You can't change my mind I can't change your mind.

You want to keep pressing me but I will not change my mind and all you will be doing is encouraging hostility in me instead of logical and entertaining discussion

You made the claim and you have so far failed and then refused to back it up and subsequently refused to withdraw it. Talking about "logical discussion" at that point is moot.

Either it's objectively proveable, requiring you as the claimant to do so, or it is objectively unproveable, requiring you as the claimant to withdraw it. And, believe me, it's more of an AUP issue for you to keep refusing to do either than it is for a member to keep pressing you for it...


Incidentally, human eyes are rubbish compared to some of the stuff "lesser" animals get.

 

[Scaff]

Yes including the blind spot, our eyes are strategically placed in a spot with optimal view.

Why did god give us eyes with a blind spot and other animals get to have eyes without a blind spot and ones that function better?

Yes, I know what you've presented. You've demonstrated that were a million (give or take a few of course) Jews in ancient Egypt. Nobody's denying that.

I am. He's not managed that one at all.

A million Jews in ancient Egypt would make up a fifth of the total population at the time and nothing he's shown backs even that up.

Jews were in ancient Egypt that much is true, but certainly not in the millions.

 

[Imari]

Our eyes are Perfectly designed for our bodies

Those of use with eyes less suited to the way we lived just died off. More children were born with "better" eyes because there were more of them. As there were more of them, so there were more of them, and then more of them.

So...who has the perfect eyes again? The people with eyes God made who died off because their eyes were worse than other people's? Or the people now with better eyes? Or the generations in the future that may evolve with even better eyes than us?

Or is this just a "God done it, it's purfect" sort of thing?

 

[BobK]

I am. He's not managed that one at all.

A million Jews in ancient Egypt would make up a fifth of the total population at the time and nothing he's shown backs even that up.

Jews were in ancient Egypt that much is true, but certainly not in the millions.

Actually you're correct. Which makes his case even harder to prove, I think, because there can't be a million Jewish slaves if there aren't even a million Jews. Be that as it may, is a few hundred thousand a reasonable number?

 

[Scaff]

Actually you're correct. Which makes his case even harder to prove, I think, because there can't be a million Jewish slaves if there aren't even a million Jews. Be that as it may, is a few hundred thousand a reasonable number?

One contemporary record put the number at 100,000; however most historians consider that to be an inflated number, so I would say that a figure south of that would not be out of the question.

Again that would still leave the total number a long way out from the claims, particularly as these claimed 100,000 were not slaves.

In short he's still not even remotely close to proving the claim.

 

[Touring Mars]

Good to know that God likes protecting precious books...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...two-new-york-apartment-buildings-9197616.html

 

[orimarc]

From that article:

The suspected gas leak brought down two large apartment blocks in East Harlem on Wednesday, destroying the Spanish Christian Church and killing eight people, including five members of the church’s congregation.

“This was in the depths of the rubble. Somehow God protected it,” said Rick del Rio, a bishop at the Church of God where the Spanish Christian Church will now hold its services.

More than 60 people were injured in the explosion and more than 100 others were forced to leave their homes.

There's a joke in here about lazy Spanish God, but I can't make it.

 

[Denur]

From that article:



There's a joke in here about lazy Spanish God, but I can't make it.

Nah, He just likes to leave His Signature when He's on another killing spree.

 

[BobK]

So God blows up a building just so He can preserve a Bible in the remains? Yay, God is Great, Allahu Akbar, and all that. Too bad eight people lost their lives so this "miracle" could take place. Not to mention the people left homeless, etc.

 

[Imari]

So God blows up a building just so He can preserve a Bible in the remains? Yay, God is Great, Allahu Akbar, and all that. Too bad eight people lost their lives so this "miracle" could take place. Not to mention the people left homeless, etc.

That was my thought as well. God protects book, kills eight people.

Some people just don't think before they open their mouths. You'd think a bishop would know better.

 

[Youngun]

Surely, our eyes and eyesight was formed from millions of years of evolution. They are good for what we need them for, just like any other animal. But hundreds of years ago, would of been slightly different, more inset, smaller, even eyelashs are part of evolution from apes. Its hair we need to keep eyes clean.

Not sure how much is actual fact but its all in my head feom somewhere.

 

[dxld]

Bobk, It's a core religious belief that Jews were slaves in Egypt.what I claim is that there were a large number of Jews in Egypt, not a Million necessarily, just a very large number. My claim is God specifically instructed the Jews to remember there time of tribulation in Egypt and they were set free through the Miracles of God. The Numbers of Jews, not exactly of high importance to me. For you to focus on the number over 1,000,0000 of Jews in Egypt is not really what I focus on.

700,000 Jews is still a large number, 500,000 Jews is still a large number. I definitely would not cry if there were only 999,999. The Biblical texts never flat out states the exact number of Jews in Egypt. The Bible does not dwell on the Number so I do not dwell on the Number. What the Bible does dwell on is instructing the Jews to remember there time in Egypt. So every year according to the Jewish Calendar the Jews Celebrate Passover. (Passover would also eventually become linked to Christ, but that becomes another discussion.)

I WILL FOREVER CLAIM THAT JEWS WERE SLAVES IN EGYPT!