Do you believe in God?
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dylansan
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I don't particularly understand this philosophy. I am sure most Jews living today were never slaves in Egypt, so I imagine it would be difficult for them to remember it.
If you mean remember in the sense of preserving your history, I would recommend ensuring that the history you are preserving is actually true.
If you simply mean to remember the lessons provided by this history, whether or not it's true (which you don't seem to be), then I would like to think these lessons should be valuable to anyone, not only Jews. So I'm curious to know what lessons can be pulled from this and why it relies so strongly on the historical accuracy of your claim. Not trying to rustle feathers really, just trying to understand.
The Jews time in Egypt was a time of trial and testing. Not only that but they worked for the Egyptians who practiced Idolatry and practiced Polytheism. The Egyptian Royalty claimed they were Gods themselves, and they ruled over their citizens and their slaves with the influence as Gods.
The Jews of course believed in only one God, as they were also the descendants of Abraham. It was a conflict between Paganism and Monotheism. Because of the Jews belief in One God and the Plagues God brought upon Egypt to free the slaves, it lead the Jews to Mt. Sinai to receive the 10 Commandments.
dylansan
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Okay, but why is it necessary that there were actually many Jewish slaves in Egypt for that to have meaning? What is the moral of the story and why must it be true to be meaningful?
Plenty of Christians study stories in the bible and treat them as just that: stories. They still get meaning out of them, but don't necessarily believe they actually happened.
If it were proven conclusively that there were few/no Jewish slaves in Egypt, would that change your faith in any way?
Plenty of Christians study stories in the bible and treat them as just that: stories. They still get meaning out of them, but don't necessarily believe they actually happened.
If it were proven conclusively that there were few/no Jewish slaves in Egypt, would that change your faith in any way?
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Torturing people is bad, regardless of whether they're slaves or not.
You mean Polytheism, I assume. Why is Polytheism bad? If there's more than one god, it seems like that would be the way to deal with it.
What's wrong with idols? I see plenty of statues of Jesus, Mary and all the rest of the gang being venerated by Christians.
And your bizarre reverse racism that Jews are somehow better than everyone else is starting to get old.
Yes I meant polytheism, damn typos.
And the Jews are Gods Blessed people, not saying they are better than everyone else. The Bible also speaks of Ishmael who is also the son of Abraham and the Progenitor of the Arabs and Islam. God gave the Arabs blessings as well....
As far as Idolatry, there are certain Christian Sects such as the Catholics who pray before Idols of Christ, that's a flaw in that Christian Church, but no Church can be truly perfect.
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Scaff
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Do you ever intend to hold a fixed position on this or do you intend to change it on an ongoing basis?
First the OT never dwells on the exact numbers (yet it cites them four times) and now you are saying that it doesn't matter because its only men over 20 mentioned!
OK lets pulls some (very conservative) figures out of that, lets assume only 50% of the men are married with kids (and that would be a very low ball figure) and that each family unit had two kids (lower that the current world average), that would still give us 1.8 million people.
We know (from census records) that that the population of Egypt at the time was circa 3 to 3.5 million people, so even if they were all unmarried men (which would make you wonder what all those men were doing for company for 42 years) it would be a population loss of 17%. With 50% family units it would be a population loss of 51%. To be blunt every contemporary Egyptian record failing to mention a population loss of 17% - 51% is absurdly unlikely, not to mention that as an empire those kind of losses would be the end of it.
Actually given the about the number is rather important.
Keep in mind that you are the one who stated this as fact (and you have not changed that viewpoint that I have seen).
This......
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...laves-in-egypt-or-is-passover-a-myth-1.420844
...has already been posted in this thread twice (once by me) and comes from Israels oldest daily newspaper. As such you statement is utterly inaccurate and untrue. You have already ignored it twice, will you be making it a third time?
No one has attacked your beliefs at all, we have questioned your claims of fact and proof.
Its a discussion forum, people get to post on any topic they like and can reply to any post they like, as long as its within the AUP you don't get to complain about it.
Once again no one has attacked your belief, we have asked for proof to back up your claims of fact. That you are unable to provide them is your issue.
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That's a pay link, it only shows the first few sentences of the story unfortunately.
EDIT: Ah, keep refreshing, that big ad will go away, seems to happen randomly through the site.
EDIT EDIT: No, back to "The full text is available for subscribers & registered users. Click here to subscribe ($1 for the first 4 weeks)"
I'm not disputing the content though, now I wish I'd grabbed the text while I could see it
Scaff
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That's a pay link, it only shows the first few sentences of the story unfortunately.
EDIT: Ah, keep refreshing, that big ad will go away, seems to happen randomly through the site.
EDIT EDIT: No, back to "The full text is available for subscribers & registered users. Click here to subscribe ($1 for the first 4 weeks)"
I'm not disputing the content though, now I wish I'd grabbed the text while I could see it
Its not a pay site for me! (Odd) The Text is:
Were Jews ever really slaves in Egypt, or is Passover a myth?
Where is the real proof - archeological evidence, state records and primary sources?
By Josh Mintz / Jewish World blogger Mar. 26, 2012 | 8:11 PM |230
Here's a question for you: what do actor Charlton Heston, DreamWorks animation studios and Former Prime Minister Menachem Begin all have in common? Well, they've all, at one time or another, perpetuated the myth that the Jews built the pyramids. And it is a myth, make no mistake. Even if we take the earliest possible date for Jewish slavery that the Bible suggests, the Jews were enslaved in Egypt a good three hundred years after the 1750 B.C. completion date of the pyramids. That is, of course, if they were ever slaves in Egypt at all.
We are so quick to point out the obvious lies about Jews and Israel that come out in Egypt – the Sinai Governors claims that the Mossad released a shark into the Red Sea to kill Egyptians, or, as I once read in a newspaper whilst on holiday in Cairo, the tale of the magnetic belt buckles that Jews were selling cheap in Egypt that would sterilize men on contact – yet we so rarely examine our own misconceptions about the nature of our history with the Egyptian nation.
We tend, in the midst of our disdain for Egyptian, anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, to overlook the fact that one of the biggest events of the Jewish calendar is predicated upon reminding the next generation every year of how the Egyptians were our cruel slave-masters, in a bondage that likely never happened. Is this really so different from Jaws the Mossad agent?
The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists.
It is hard to believe that 600,000 families (which would mean about two million people) crossed the entire Sinai without leaving one shard of pottery (the archeologist's best friend) with Hebrew writing on it. It is remarkable that Egyptian records make no mention of the sudden migration of what would have been nearly a quarter of their population, nor has any evidence been found for any of the expected effects of such an exodus; such as economic downturn or labor shortages. Furthermore, there is no evidence in Israel that shows a sudden influx of people from another culture at that time. No rapid departure from traditional pottery has been seen, no record or story of a surge in population.
In fact, there's absolutely no more evidence to suggest that the story is true than there is in support of any of the Arab world's conspiracy theories and tall tales about Jews.
So, as we come to Passover 2012 when, thanks to the “Arab Spring,” our relations with Egypt are at a nearly 40 year low, let us enjoy our Seder and read the story by all means, but also remind those at the table who may forget that it is just a metaphor, and that there is no ancient animosity between Israelites and Egyptians. Because, if we want to re-establish that elusive peace with Egypt that so many worked so hard to build, we're all going to have to let go of our prejudices.
Your word? Odd I thought it was the word of god?
Its a Biblical claim, one that you have faith in but can not prove as fact. Its a simple as that, and as such any claim of it as a factual event will require supporting evidence )one of faith alone does not).
Now how about you actually address some of the utterly inaccurate and/or false claims you have made?
It can't be proven with anything, that's the point. Not a single piece of evidence backs up the version in the texts.
Then why do you keep insisting its a proven fact?
Its nothing like jumping out of a plane with a parachute, and I'm not asking you to change your mind, I'm saying no proof exists for your belief so you need to stop claiming it as fact (until you can provide that proof).
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I already did and I'm not going to constantly be constantly repeating them.
It's biblical fact, I will not go back on my claim, Jews were Slaves in Egypt. Every year that the Jews celebrate Passover as a reminder of their time as slaves in Egypt I will state as fact they were Slaves in Egypt.
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Scaff
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Really?
You've addressed why you claimed that no Jew disputes the Exodus despite being shown that the oldest Jewish newspaper has done just that?
You've addressed why you claimed the text doesn't dwell on numbers, when it quite clearly mentions the circa 600,000 men over 20 claim four times?
These are just two of factual claims you have made that have been clearly refuted and you have left unaddressed (apart from simply ignoring them and carrying on with the same nonsense).
Then back it up.
If you can't then its not a fact at all, its a belief (and I'm struggling to understand why it simply being proof is such as issue - its supposed to be faith).
Oh - and don't double post.
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Distinct from an actual fact by not being a fact.
Just a minor point, but if you have to add a qualifier to the word "fact", it's probably not one.
Feel free to say that you believe that there were a million, a thousand, ten or even one Jewish slave in Ancient Egypt, but be aware that the actual evidence gathered to the same standards as everything that governs your daily modern life does not back you up.
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BobK
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So? What is your point? Why are you mentioning it? What does it have to do withg anything?
Let's make one thing perfectly clear. I am not attacking your beliefs. You can believe anything you want, no matter how silly or illogical it may be, I don't care. Nor am I attacking you personally. What I am doing is asking for any evidence for something you stated as fact and furthermore said you had evidence for. We're still waiting to see this evidence. You have trotted out various and sundry things, but invariably they failed to support your claim.
Good Lord, no. I have no idea what you post elsewhere on GT Planet, nor do I particularly care. Why are you asking a silly question like that? Furthermore at no time have I even remotely suggested you retract any belief in anything. I have asked that you back up something you stated as fact, that's all.
Do you really not comprehend the difference between a fact and a belief?
Again, I have not attacked you personally, nor your beliefs, in any way, shape or form. I invite you to point out where I have. On the other hand,
is very much a personal attack.
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Haha, so the bible's just some kind of story? So if that's the case.... how come IT HAS JESUS IN?
/atheism
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He wrote it, all in 1st person in fiction, sells better in that category.
The beauty of the Bible is it is written by many authors inspired by God. Not just one author who can customize it to what he only believes. It is a collaboration effort like many of our educational textbooks and reference books are today. Each and every sentence, verse, and paragraph has manually been indexed so when a translation exists you can refer to the original Hebrew and Greek to examine what the verse originally intended to say.
Jesus suffered on the cross to save the world from sin, Jews were slaves in Egypt and Moses through God's divine intervention freed the slaves from Egypt.
These are my core beliefs, and after a lifetime of questioning and research, I believe these events to be true.
Jesus suffered on the cross to save the world from sin, Jews were slaves in Egypt and Moses through God's divine intervention freed the slaves from Egypt.
These are my core beliefs, and after a lifetime of questioning and research, I believe these events to be true.
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Im not saying eveything in the book happened but everything seems to be blown out of proportion. All the miracles could be explained anotherway, scientifically. Even being dead for a while, its a coma. Water to Wine is fermentation with fruit. Walking on water, dynamo did this in London, its an illusion. 2 fish feeds a thousand, fish pie/ fish stew with some big ass fish (tuna maybe?). Forgot all the other "miracles" but hey, not saying the Bible is lieing.
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I have a book of poetry somewhere, works by many authors inspired by the big J* himself. It's an incredible bible, every sentence, verse and paragraph has been manually typed into a word processor and is shown alongside the original handwritten sheets (if you're a geek) to examine what the verse originally intended to say.
The difference is that these authors met their inspiration. Otherwise my book is as valid, is it not?
But how did that save the world from sin? And, unless I'm being oversimplistic, why is there still lots of sin? And why is some of it really nice?
What questions did you ask and of whom? What was your research? I'd be fascinated to know!
*John Lennon, d'uh obvs.
Scaff
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Speaking about people with no proof acting as if they can state fact based on the bible.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/...mos-to-provide-balance/#.UyyGLva4Oy8.facebook
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/...mos-to-provide-balance/#.UyyGLva4Oy8.facebook
KSaiyu
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Offensive enough to ban?
http://www.independent.co.uk/studen...y-for-offending-religious-people-9119958.html
Lack of free speech in a university. Whatever next.
http://www.independent.co.uk/studen...y-for-offending-religious-people-9119958.html
The Independent
Lack of free speech in a university. Whatever next.
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Offensive enough to ban?
http://www.independent.co.uk/studen...y-for-offending-religious-people-9119958.html
Lack of free speech in a university. Whatever next.
It's important to remember that as an atheist, you're not really a human being and therefore have no rights.
That would mean the Biblical writers were puppets of God who in robot like manner simply spewed words out of their minds and mouths. That's like learning from an art teacher and making exact replicas of his works.
Christ himself taught us not to pray from just memorization of words, but from our hearts.
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If God's words are intended to be taken literally as a way of life, I would think it would be very important that they be exactly correct. If that requires that some writers become vehicles for God's expression for a short period of time, I would say that's a small price to pay.
Praying is not the same as dictating a Bible. Prayer is personal expression. Recording a Bible is creating a copy of someone else's expression, namely God's.
Back when scribes were a thing, they didn't get to put their personal interpretation on what they were writing. They wrote exactly what was there, because it was important that the words were kept the same. This is in part how the Bible survived for a long time. Ditto artists making copies of famous works. If you're employed to make a copy, your employer won't thank you for injecting your own flair. Ditto stenographers, and any other number of professions where the point is to create an exact record of something.
So please explain why it is not important that the words in the Bible are the exact words that God used. Given the amount of quibbling over the things the Bible says, I would argue that the words are EXTREMELY important.
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