Do you believe in God?

[squadops]

People can do horrific things and still be within the laws of the land in Saudi Arabia.

Kinda like everywhere else then?

 

[LeMansAid]

A church wouldn't be the only option in that situation. And while that person might feel better being with the church, they may also pick up that churches beliefs. If that happens to be an anti homosexual stance and that person goes on to strain perfectly legitimate relationships, it doesn't make the church look good.

I know that churches and religious organizations can do good, but they are not the source for good. If you cut out everything except the donate to less fortunate bit or something, you're not left with much of a religion, but that doesn't sound bad to me.

You appear to be thinking I'm saying more than I'm actually saying. My post was specifically in response to the part I quoted. There's no need to extrapolate my response for me.

 

[Danoff]

Useless for the person that gets respite with church people after leaving an abusive relationship?

People who follow immoral codes are capable of doing good things. That doesn't change anything. No the church is not useless to anyone who uses them for anything. That doesn't somehow make the message moral.

 

[LeMansAid]

People who follow immoral codes are capable of doing good things. That doesn't change anything. No the church is not useless to anyone who uses them for anything. That doesn't somehow make the message moral.

Just as a sheet can't be called clean if it has even a speck of dirt on it, the impurity technically informs, but I don't think it's fair to call "the code" moral or immoral. I'd rather it be deemed either both or neither. I won't go any further on this.

 

[Exorcet]

You appear to be thinking I'm saying more than I'm actually saying. My post was specifically in response to the part I quoted. There's no need to extrapolate my response for me.

I didn't. I said they may feel good conceding to your point. The rest was my own thoughts. They may feel good, and to that person the church might seem useful, but that doesn't make the church good.

 

[LeMansAid]

I didn't. I said they may feel good conceding to your point. The rest was my own thoughts. They may feel good, and to that person the church might seem useful, but that doesn't make the church good.

Ok. But yes, it was the term useless that I was pointing to.

 

[squadops]

Just as a sheet can't be called clean if it has even a speck of dirt on it,

That is a problem many 'religious' people face, the simple fact that they are aiming for saint hood diminishes anything good they can muster. I guess if someone simply said they were shooting for mediocrity they'd be left outside the microscope lens.

 

[Danoff]

Just as a sheet can't be called clean if it has even a speck of dirt on it, the impurity technically informs, but I don't think it's fair to call "the code" moral or immoral. I'd rather it be deemed either both or neither. I won't go any further on this.

The religions we're talking about don't have a speck of dirt, they have a huge pile of poo in the middle of the bed. You're pointing to the clean edges.

 

[LeMansAid]

The religions we're talking about don't have a speck of dirt, they have a huge pile of poo in the middle of the bed. You're pointing to the clean edges.

There was no commentary on the size of the stain, just that deeming on technicality, blemish always prevails. That approach is removed from the realities of the application of morals though.

I've been done over by the poo, but I'm still objective enough to not overstate it. I approve of the idea of editing religious texts to reflect current day behaviour and attitudes, but you don't. You leave it at a stalemate. You disapprove of their (im)moral code, but don't want them to change it.

 

[Azuremen]

The religions we're talking about don't have a speck of dirt, they have a huge pile of poo in the middle of the bed. You're pointing to the clean edges.

Which means there is still some good/merit to some aspects. Understanding this grey area and using it as a middle ground tends have far more success to leading theists to question elements than just calling their ideology bunk to start with. This is the greatest flaw in the approach taken by most atheists and I come across far too often when dealing with those in the sciences/engineering.

 

[Liquid]

Yet you were against the idea of The Bible being updated to reflect the way that views have changed en masse in modern times. It seems like you just want to keep it all locked up in a convenient and designated spot you have for it.

You - "Your code is immoral"
Them - "But there's lots of good stuff in there"
You - "Talk to the hand"
Them - "Can we change it then?"
You - "No"

The fact that the moral code is not infallible from the very start says a lot about what is supposedly the true words of god.

If what is claimed to be the truth is wrong from the start, and what is claimed to be moral is immoral is from the start, then it is most certainly not something (I would like) to be a part of.

I am with @Danoff on this in that for pleasant psalms and parables about loving your fellow man, these are the same guidelines which have condemned homosexuals with death sentences and subjected women with abhorrent levels of torture, rape and imprisonment.

"That bit doesn't count" or "No, this is what we really believe" is not good enough for absolute truth and morality touted as the word of god.

However, is [insert denomination] free to 'update' the Bible? Yes. Absolutely nothing is stopping them.

Will it suddenly result in thousands of atheists believing in Abrahamic religion? No.

 

[Famine]

I've always quite liked the moral code of Jainism. I mean, the fifth (and lowest ranking) requirement is a bit unfeasible, the fourth one I'd break on a daily basis and I couldn't really stand the veganism, but at least they go about the "duty of care" in a sensible and even rational way (after the point at which they establish they have a duty of care to all other living things, mind). I'd struggle to find anything particularly immoral about their ethics.

The belief set is no stronger or weaker than any other, but you won't find Jains putting people to death for adultery or being gay, enslaving people, going on a holy war or blowing themselves up in a crowded commuter hub.

Of course Jains would struggle to keep order if there was a criminal in their midst...

 

[Danoff]

Which means there is still some good/merit to some aspects. Understanding this grey area and using it as a middle ground tends have far more success to leading theists to question elements than just calling their ideology bunk to start with. This is the greatest flaw in the approach taken by most atheists and I come across far too often when dealing with those in the sciences/engineering.

To be completely clear, I'm not trying to convert anyone with these statements. I'm trying to make it perfectly clear that a moral code that requires immoral acts is not a moral code. End of story.

 

[GBO Possum]

Yet you were against the idea of The Bible being updated to reflect the way that views have changed en masse in modern times. It seems like you just want to keep it all locked up in a convenient and designated spot you have for it.

You - "Your code is immoral"
Them - "But there's lots of good stuff in there"
You - "Talk to the hand"
Them - "Can we change it then?"
You - "No"

Given that the Bible is "god's word", then it is up to the author to update it. (This task should not be nearly as difficult as creating a universe.)

I regard changing the Bible as extremely presumptuous, don't you? Yes, the Bible has been changed by the hand of man continuously over the years, without the proven involvement of the author. That's presumptuous too.

 

[JDmsz]

The people that don't believe in a god or Jesus are obviously going to hell. Without jesus dying on the cross for us, we will all be going to hell no matter how good we are. And if there's no god why do some people come back as a spirt and goes into your dream and tell you that there okay? GOD is 100% real and he's around us 24/7. Yes bring all the hate to me because I don't care what y'all say about that god isn't real because you going to hell. I have freedom of speech to say whatever I want. Why you think there's natural disasters all over the world today? Because god is giving a hint that's he's coming one day.

 

[Danoff]

The people that don't believe in a god or Jesus are obviously going to hell. Without jesus dying on the cross for us, we will all be going to hell no matter how good we are. And if there's no god why do some people come back as a spirt and goes into your dream and tell you that there okay? GOD is 100% real and he's around us 24/7. Yes bring all the hate to me because I don't care what y'all say about that god isn't real because you going to hell. I have freedom of speech to say whatever I want. Why you think there's natural disasters all over the world today? Because god is giving a hint that's he's coming one day.

I'm sure that God is proud of how eloquently and persuasively you have brought his word to the masses today.

 

[Dan]

The people that don't believe in a god or Jesus are obviously going to hell. Without jesus dying on the cross for us, we will all be going to hell no matter how good we are. And if there's no god why do some people come back as a spirt and goes into your dream and tell you that there okay? GOD is 100% real and he's around us 24/7. Yes bring all the hate to me because I don't care what y'all say about that god isn't real because you going to hell. I have freedom of speech to say whatever I want. Why you think there's natural disasters all over the world today? Because god is giving a hint that's he's coming one day.

From the first few lines, I was expecting you to say you were joking and trying to parody strong-believing theists. Well, I guess I was wrong. People really won't like you if you go around forcing your opinion onto them and saying that they will be brutally tortured for all eternity if they don't have the same belief as you do. I respect people's right to believe in whatever they want to since I have my own beliefs, but I certainly don't just leap into a discussion and thrust my opinion into everyone's faces and condemn others for thinking differently. I don't believe in a heaven or hell. If places such as those existed, I don't think it would be fair if an atheist was sent to hell even though they spent their entire life trying to do as much good for the world as possible, only to be subjected to an eternal punishment for not believing in a specific deity. I also don't think it would be fair if a theist was sent to heaven even if they abused their family/spouse/others, but were spared punishment because they simply had to believe in a deity.

. . .

I'd also like to point out that some natural disasters can be attributed to us humans (Regardless of a belief in a higher power or not) completely :censored:ing up our environment.

 

[Imari]

The people that don't believe in a god or Jesus are obviously going to hell.

When you have to use "obviously" as your justification, it's probably not a good start.

Without jesus dying on the cross for us, we will all be going to hell no matter how good we are.

That's unfortunate. And here was me thinking that being a good, kind person was what mattered.

And if there's no god why do some people come back as a spirt and goes into your dream and tell you that there okay?

Er, I thought when people died they went to heaven, not floated around in people's dreams. Is there a bit of the Bible or other Christian literature that explains how this "come back as a spirit" thing works?

GOD is 100% real and he's around us 24/7.

Is this just your opinion, or a solid fact?

I'm not even sure I want to start the whole objective evidence thing again, but sometimes it's worth it for people to be able to understand why others might not share their point of view.

Yes bring all the hate to me because I don't care what y'all say about that god isn't real because you going to hell.

And a fine, loving example of a Christian you have turned out to be. And you wonder why people dislike religion, when it produces people like you who will happily condemn fellow humans to an eternity of torment.

I have freedom of speech to say whatever I want.

You certainly do. Just as others have the freedom to tell you that you're talking bigoted, uneducated dribble.

Why you think there's natural disasters all over the world today?

Because that's how the world works. It's not like there weren't natural disasters in ye olde times, they had them too. I see nothing about the natural disasters in the world today that requires God to explain them.

Because god is giving a hint that's he's coming one day.

Well, he sounds like an asshole if his idea of showing that he's coming it killing thousands of people. A postcard would have done, or maybe a booming voice from the heavens with glittering sun rays.

P.S. You know that this sort of contradicts your earlier statement of "God is 100% real and he's around us 24/7", right? If he's around us 24/7, he hardly needs to be coming. He's already here.

 

[JDmsz]

Imari, when you die one day don't be sorry. God is real I experienced several times.

 

[Jet Badger]

Strange how god only appears to people who already believe in it. Surely the nonbelievers are the people who apparently would benefit from such experience.

 

[Denur]

God is real I experienced several times.

Could you please explain the circumstances under which you experienced God and what He is like. Is He really a he, with penis and all?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Imari, when you die one day don't be sorry. God is real I experienced several times.

It's my belief that he won't be.

It's also my belief that some of the things you say run beyond religious fervour and into the realms of hallucinogenic madness. Since when was Abraamic heaven "people coming back in dreams"?

And if everyone was going to hell before the sequel (where Jesus first appeared) then why didn't hell exist in the first book? It's there as "sheol"* but that isn't quite the same thing. Until book 2 and all the fans that came from it no one had mentioned an up-there-heaven or a down-there-hell, it was just added as part of the sequel's publicity engine.

*Unless you'd like to use a Modern American translation, which hardly seems fair. Or sensible.

 

[Dan]

I can always count on GTP'ers to break down posts piece-by-piece better than I can.

Imari, when you die one day don't be sorry. God is real I experienced several times.

Please describe in detail how you "experienced" him. Without the use of drugs, preferably.

 

[Imari]

Imari, when you die one day don't be sorry. God is real I experienced several times.

I won't be sorry when I die. I'll be dead.

If there does happen to be an afterlife, and there is a supreme being judging me, I expect him to judge me based on what I've done with my life. Was my contribution to my family, my community, and humanity in general a positive one, that sort of thing.

If the supreme being judging me is so shallow as to ignore all that and cast me into eternal torment for the simple fact that I didn't swallow every unsubstantiated claim from extremely old books and dubious religious authority figures, then I don't really care. The logic behind that one is so weak that even had I done everything he wanted, I suspect he would have found some way to get me. That's Bullying 101, right there.

At the end of the day, I'll live my life as best I can following the rules that make sense to me. That's the best I can do. Maybe it turns out after I die that I learn that the best thing I could have done for humanity was spend all my time punting puppies off bridges. So be it, all I have to go on is what's right in front of me now.

If you and I lived exactly the same lives except for our religions, and you got into heaven and I was assigned eternal torment, I think that's pretty :censored:ed. I want no part of that, and will in fact accept eternal damnation just to stick two fingers up to the big man. I may be burning in agony, but I'll always have that little warm glow reminding me that God is an asshole and I told him to go 🤬 himself.


Of course, what I actually expect, should there be an afterlife, is that God is a compassionate and rational being, and that anyone who lived a good, kind, clean life will be welcomed regardless of their religion. Only those who have been truly terrible will be assigned to hell. As such, I have no real fear of death, either there's nothing there or I'm as worthy as the next person to any God whose opinion I would respect.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Imari, when you die one day don't be sorry. God is real I experienced several times.

How exactly? Maybe it's my deist and agnostic beliefs but I'd like to hear about these experiences you've had and how you can prove them.

The people that don't believe in a god or Jesus are obviously going to hell. Without jesus dying on the cross for us, we will all be going to hell no matter how good we are. And if there's no god why do some people come back as a spirt and goes into your dream and tell you that there okay? GOD is 100% real and he's around us 24/7. Yes bring all the hate to me because I don't care what y'all say about that god isn't real because you going to hell. I have freedom of speech to say whatever I want. Why you think there's natural disasters all over the world today? Because god is giving a hint that's he's coming one day.

I love how you contradict god and Jesus as a certain jmoney did on another thread (someone help remind me please) and was quickly shown how he did so. You've virtually done a parallel to this just with less eloquent rhetoric.

 

[rickykaka3]

No i don't believe in any of those 1000s of gods that exist, those who believe in sometjing imaginary should check their brain.

 

[TenEightyOne]

No i don't believe in any of those 1000s of gods that exist, those who believe in sometjing imaginary should check their brain.

Do you believe that some gods exist? Or that there is one god that exists? Or that no gods exist?

 

[2clicks]

I have been watching this thread for a while and I'm not sure where this is going. I initially thought that it was a thread to share someone's belief or disbelief in God, and not a debate where one side belittles the other. Now before you go any further, just read my signature. Yes, you know what my answer to the question will be, but I am shocked at what @JDmsz said. Only God determines who goes to heaven or hell. No man can condemn another man into whatever part of the afterlife they choose. These 'fire and brimstone' sermons that these Evangelicals preach are what is making people turn away from religion. I ran away from one of those churches because it makes you feel insignificant. God is not an eternal judge. He is only the judge at the very end. @Imari I know what you're saying, I have met atheists who are nice, charitable people, and it's only going to make it worse if Evangelicals say to them 'you are going to hell.' Nobody cuts someone's nose off and then offers them a rose. I believe that whatever you do, it is between you and God, with no man interfering. And as for 'experiencing' God, look it up in the Bible. In 2 Peter, it basically says that no man will be able to explain a vision by himself in this current time. The Bible is all that Christians need, without mulling over 'experiential' nonsense.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

No i don't believe in any of those 1000s of gods that exist, those who believe in sometjing imaginary should check their brain.

This is about as rude as the guy trying to force religion on people how are you any better?

@2clicks I like your posts and though I'm not religious at all I can respect your tolerable approach rather than "I'm without a doubt right and thus stand above you, you're going to hell". You also seem to know your teachings unlike other supposed Christians or denominations of that backing.

Though the only part I disagree with is the debate portion, it's a forum and a thread would be a massive waste and almost chat room or blog levels if people just said yes or no or not sure either way. That would also defeat the purpose of the poll to vote on. I understand that many are unconfrontational (which is fine) but a forum is for engaging conversation that may lead to heated debates, it's up to the users around if they want to join in or just stick to the poll and move on.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I have been watching this thread for a while and I'm not sure where this is going. I initially thought that it was a thread to share someone's belief or disbelief in God, and not a debate where one side belittles the other. Now before you go any further, just read my signature. Yes, you know what my answer to the question will be, but I am shocked at what @JDmsz said. Only God determines who goes to heaven or hell. No man can condemn another man into whatever part of the afterlife they choose. These 'fire and brimstone' sermons that these Evangelicals preach are what is making people turn away from religion. I ran away from one of those churches because it makes you feel insignificant. God is not an eternal judge. He is only the judge at the very end. @Imari I know what you're saying, I have met atheists who are nice, charitable people, and it's only going to make it worse if Evangelicals say to them 'you are going to hell.' Nobody cuts someone's nose off and then offers them a rose. I believe that whatever you do, it is between you and God, with no man interfering.

The nature of internet debate is that it's cruel but for the most part this thread (and the forum overall) are well moderated and there's little of that. It's natural that extreme claims are met with extreme responses sometimes but in here it's been quite pleasant

And as for 'experiencing' God, look it up in the Bible. In 1 Peter, it basically says that no man will be able to explain a vision by himself in this current time. The Bible is all that Christians need, without mulling over 'experiential' nonsense.

But the bibles are man-written and sometimes mis-translated (or mis-construed in translation).

Does it make you suspicious that an apparently important rule-of-belief says that the belief is inexplicable. You're told that in the very book that says your belief is true, right?

That's a genuine question, how do you reconcile that statement?