Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 623 30.5%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,050 51.5%

  • Total voters
    2,040
There are a few 800 lb gorillas in the same room with science which remain unconquered. One is consciousness - undoubtedly having a great deal to do with the religious experience and God meme.
I agree that quite a few of those do exist, its however inaccurate to claim (as Sheldrake did) that science ignores these, and it also doesn't then give the mandate to simply make stuff up and pretend its an answer (as Sheldrake does).


I am interested in why you are interested in the "something more".
Science covers the sum total of all we currently know and all we will know (as its knowledge), as such I always wonder about what 'something more' outside that would be (actually to be fair I'm interested in all knowledge).

If you don't believe in evolution what do you believe in? The creation of man from thin air sounds an awful lot like the work of 'a higher power' to me.
Belief in evolution isn't required, it will not change the facts nor the theory of evolution, that however is a different thread.
 
I'm trying to get my mind back on topic, which used to be about "belief" and "god". So here is my position.

I have no "beliefs", especially because "belief" is a word so strongly associated with "lack of evidence".

Another reason I don't have "beliefs" is that they are so often associated with immutable absolutes.

I have no opinion which I could claim to be a 100% certainty. Or, for that matter, a 0% probability. Although, any assertion (such as the existence of "god") with a total absence of evidence can get very close to 0%.

Neither belief nor faith are virtues, and when combined with having absolute opinions, become even less virtuous, and more dangerous.

This is the great thing about science. It follows the facts and refuses to be unchanging. It has no use for "belief", "faith" or "dogma". It welcomes and relies on efforts to disprove hypotheses.

Edit
@TheCracker, based on the above, I do not "believe" in evolution. I regard evolutionary theory to be an extremely good explanation, "good" in the sense of being highly likely to be accurate. The evidence is there.
 
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Science covers the sum total of all we currently know and all we will know (as its knowledge), as such I always wonder about what 'something more' outside that would be (actually to be fair I'm interested in all knowledge).

I think it's reasonable to assume that when your average person talks about Science, they tend to be referring to main stream accepted proven science and commonly accepted theoretical science. From that point of view 'something more' I think would be a 'layer' of science that is as yet unknown or hidden, perhaps a link between things that has yet to be be seen... probably well beyond the comprehension or certainly understanding of aforementioned average person.

... it kind of falls in with my own opinion that the closest thing to their being a ""God"" in the broadest possible sense of the word, is a collection of principles, processes & particles, some of which we're beginning to get a handle on now as a spieces.

edit: Not to get too off-topic or anything but these two articles alone today I find amazing:
http://www.livescience.com/47584-sc...into-view.html?cmpid=514627_20140828_30584516
http://www.livescience.com/47580-switch-emotional-memory.html

It really makes me wonder how far off we are from being able to answer every question that - in the abscence of an answer, leaves room for people to suggest a god.

Personally I'd be up for changing the name of God, to "Existence Physics".
 
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Science covers the sum total of all we currently know and all we will know (as its knowledge), as such I always wonder about what 'something more' outside that would be (actually to be fair I'm interested in all knowledge).

If science does indeed cover all we know or will know, i.e., all experience, then it is understandable why you would want to study the religious experience, altered states, unusual phenomena such as UFO's, NDE studies and reports of the afterlife, and so on. It is wrong of you to reflexively debunk these things in lieu of studying them.

On the other hand, I can see why you must do it. This is a forum of opinion - but not just any forum. It is the Gran Turismo Planet forum, a forum for (and presumably by) younger men who adore fast, expensive cars. In other words, at the very foundation of GTP is a materialism which stands in opposition to spiritualism, dualism, transcendentalism, physics which views information rather than matter to be fundamental, and is hostile to most religion. So you do what you must as a matter of policy, or choice.

As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.

— Max Planck, Das Wesen der Materie, 1944
 
If science does indeed cover all we know or will know, i.e., all experience, then it is understandable why you would want to study the religious experience, altered states, unusual phenomena such as UFO's, NDE studies and reports of the afterlife, and so on. It is wrong of you to reflexively debunk these things in lieu of studying them.

Haven't we been over this? I'm sure that @Famine has, on a few occasions, recalled that there have indeed been scientific investigations into so-called religious experiences, near death experiences and out-of-body experiences and that similar results have been documented as far back as the 1960s with experiments involving centrifugal forces and what is probably the brain suffering from hypoxia (lack of oxygen).

Not that that is it, that's not a case of "Centrifugal forces, no air, done, debunked" but certainly science does not ignore research in these fields out of some fear about being proven 'wrong' and that proof for an omniscient/omnipresent being is uncovered.

Altered states? I'm sure a lot of people know about the CIA's drug research and serendipitous discovery/use of LSD. We, by which I mean we as a people, are also investigating UFOs and the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence all the time.

Often I find your posts interesting and thought provoking, Dotini, but sometimes I feel you play devil's advocate where it is not needed.
 
Often I find your posts interesting and thought provoking, Dotini, but sometimes I feel you play devil's advocate where it is not wanted.

Thanks for the compliment, Liquid. 👍 I do mainly strive to entertain. :D But all is not black and white, things are mostly grayish, a mix of god and devil. :mischievous: I'm not above error. :rolleyes:
 
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Why?

Why is "humans just appearing" not a possibility in your mind, yet "humans being put on Earth by a higher power/being" is?

Also, by "humans just appearing", do you mean the theory of evolution?

Can we make random objects appear in front of us? No. So...
 
I would recommend that you guys watch this talk given by Rupert Sheldrake which was banned for some weird reason.

I don't find this reasoning weird at all, why do you?

BiN
“According to our science board, Rupert Sheldrake bases his arguement on several major factual errors, which undermane the arguements of [the] talk,” writes a TED staff member on the blog post. One example is that he “suggests that scientists reject the notion that animals have consciousness, despite the fact that it’s generally accepted that animals have some form of consciousness.”

Further, TED disputes Sheldrake’s “claim to have ‘evidence’ of morphic resonance in crystal formation and rat behavior. The research has never appeared in a peer reviewed journal, despite attempts by other scientists eager to replicate the work.”

As for the decision to remove the videos from the YouTube channels, it’s not censorship, says TED staff.

“We’re not censoring the talks. Instead, we’re placing them here, where they can be framed to highlight both their provacative ideas and the factual problems with their arguements.” The videos “appear to have crossed the lines into pseudoscience.”

(Source)

That doesn't seem weird to me at all, particularly not in the framed context of TED talks.
 
Not really, otherwise everything humankind has ever learned would be false, or open to interpretation. Which is not the case.

Substantive support must be just that - substantive. That substance is provided by the scientific qualities of repeatability, non-falsifiability and independent analysis. Can this piece of evidence be repeated? If not, it doesn't meet the standard. Can it be falsified, i.e. is there an inherent probability of it being proven false? If it can, it can't yet be considered sufficient evidence. Can it be given to anyone else with the tools to investigate, for them to come to the same conclusion? If it can't, it isn't acceptable as evidence.

That's where the blue strawberry example came in before. Someone is entitled to think that strawberries are blue, since that's their opinion. But to prove it, they'd need to find several other examples of blue strawberries for repeatability. If such things existed, this would be plausible. But it's highly falsifiable, since our knowledge of the wavelengths of light would show that it's red.

Even if all of humankind could only see in black and white, we could invent a machine that showed the light reflecting off it would be a different wavelength from the light reflecting off a blue object. The terms "blue" and "red" would have no meaning to us obviously, but the objective data could be replicated by anyone around the world using the same methods. The conclusion being thus: Strawberries aren't blue, and the opinion of the guy saying they are is not worth listening to.

You mean "it isn't acceptable as scientific evidence".
Evidence does not have to meet the scientific standard to be evidence.
Otherwise as far as the physical realm, I see your point.

But with the subject of God, you are knowingly or unknowingly, crossing over into the realm of the spiritual.
That is not of the same dimension as the physical.
Consequently it is not explored and confirmed with the same methods.

This though:
...is about as close as you've got to saying something sensible on this subject in years. The issue then is whether it can be established, which by any method that matters, is highly unlikely.

I feel it imperative to provide the whole quote:
"God's existence is yet to be established, in a final and for all way."
You cannot confirm the spiritual through the physical, at least not yet.
However it can be established spiritually, on an individual basis.
Of course, the whole argument here is that it shouldn't need to be "established", since proof denies faith. I believe that might have been mentioned before.

As far as physically established, thats true, and it is purposely structured that way.
 
I think it's reasonable to assume that when your average person talks about Science, they tend to be referring to main stream accepted proven science and commonly accepted theoretical science. From that point of view 'something more' I think would be a 'layer' of science that is as yet unknown or hidden, perhaps a link between things that has yet to be be seen... probably well beyond the comprehension or certainly understanding of aforementioned average person.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Thanks, MatskiMonk.
 
If science does indeed cover all we know or will know, i.e., all experience, then it is understandable why you would want to study the religious experience, altered states, unusual phenomena such as UFO's, NDE studies and reports of the afterlife, and so on. It is wrong of you to reflexively debunk these things in lieu of studying them.
When have I reflexively debunked these things in lieu of study?

The answer is never, in fact I have been actively involved in discussions on a number of these subjects both in this thread and others.

That the evidence either doesn't support the claims or offers non-supernatural answers (such as NDE's) is is not reflexively debunking.

On the other hand, I can see why you must do it.
Really, do tell given that as a statement that is utterly inaccurate.


This is a forum of opinion - but not just any forum. It is the Gran Turismo Planet forum, a forum for (and presumably by) younger men who adore fast, expensive cars. In other words, at the very foundation of GTP is a materialism which stands in opposition to spiritualism, dualism, transcendentalism, physics which views information rather than matter to be fundamental, and is hostile to most religion. So you do what you must as a matter of policy, or choice.
I'm 43 and while I would dearly love to be considered a 'younger man' that ship has pretty much sailed for me.

I'd like to be quite clear that while your 'devils advocate' approach is at times entertaining, when it steps past the line and into making grossly inaccurate claims about members is becomes something of an issue.


You mean "it isn't acceptable as scientific evidence".
Evidence does not have to meet the scientific standard to be evidence.
Otherwise as far as the physical realm, I see your point.
Citation required (again)


But with the subject of God, you are knowingly or unknowingly, crossing over into the realm of the spiritual.
That is not of the same dimension as the physical.
Consequently it is not explored and confirmed with the same methods.
Citation required (again)


I feel it imperative to provide the whole quote:
"God's existence is yet to be established, in a final and for all way."
You cannot confirm the spiritual through the physical, at least not yet.
However it can be established spiritually, on an individual basis.


As far as physically established, thats true, and it is purposely structured that way.
Citation required (again)
 
Existing is evidence of its own. If you exist, you have evidence that you exist, do you not?

The simplest piece of evidence would be "look at him/her/it, there's god".

I have evidence that I exist, but others are not guaranteed to. The god by definition has evidence of his own existence, courtesy of "I think therefore I am". There's nothing that says that anyone else is guaranteed to be able to witness evidence of god though.

We're talking about an omnipotent being that is beyond the rules of our universe by definition. I don't think it's rational to apply the rules of this universe as though they apply absolutely to all beings, especially of higher powers. You can make assumptions, but recognise that they are exactly that, assumptions.

You're making the assumption that anything that exists can be detected in some fashion. That's a very reasonable assumption within our universe, because that's how things work, or at least how they appear to work in every case so far. You're extending that beyond our universe, and that's fine.

Agnostics don't.

This harkens back to the discussion of axioms in the rights thread. You've chosen to assume that evidence and existence are always linked. But if you're talking about a being that's outside the system, you can't assume that all the rules of thumb that you use to describe your daily life hold. There's no particular reason why an omnipotent and omniscient being need leave any evidence at all.

I think this is where you're falling down. You're talking about a being that can do literally anything. You're trying to define it by what is physically possible, and that's not how gods work. Gods make the rules, they may be bound by them as well, but there's no logical reason for believing that's necessarily so.

If I'm playing Gran Turismo as a player, I'm bound by it's rules. If I'm a programmer with access to the code of Gran Turismo, I can do pretty much anything I like. If I want to have a race online with other people, I can probably make it so that there is no in-game way that they can detect me. They'd have to be outside the game to be able to detect what I was doing. And then I could avoid that detection by being one more level further up, a being beyond the rules of this universe. Repeat ad infinitum.

It's a foot race with the observer always one step behind. It's always possible that there's a being one more step beyond your ability to detect them.

This isn't terribly useful reasoning for daily life, it's awfully reminiscent of navel gazing. But so is a lot of philosophy and religion. As far as I can tell, the principle that it is always possible that there is a being beyond your detection is logically sound. If you label that being as god, then the statement "there cannot be evidence of gods" works too.

Anyhow, I wasn't saying that I agree with what Mr. Sheldrake is saying, for example when he says that one dogma that mainstream scientists believe is that everything is constant, claiming that the speed of light has changed over the years, but I think that this is because of the development and improvement of the equipment we use to measure the speed of light and that it has remained constant.

There is a lot of evidence that the speed of light is a constant. Scientists don't believe in this in the same way that Catholics believe in Jesus, they simply accept that evidence at face value.

There are circumstances that would be compatible with our current understanding of the universe under which the speed of light would be changing over time. It's very hard to detect, and to my knowledge they haven't managed to do so to the precision that would be required to overturn such a well established theory as the constancy of the speed of light.

Laypeople have this misconception that scientists learn one thing and then stick with it to the grim death. That may be true of some bad scientists, but a good scientist is aware that all they ever have is a best approximation that fits the circumstances. Some of the approximations have been refined so much by so many people that we're really pretty damn sure that they're as accurate as current technology can make them, and it would take a major upset to seriously overturn them, although minor tweaks happen all the time.

The crucial thing about science though, is that anything that it claims has at least one thing that, were it to happen, would prove that claim completely wrong. Generally, scientists find it most efficient to come up with an idea and then try their very hardest to break it. This is why people find it tough to attack scientific theories, because these are the ideas that have survived having lots of very bright people trying as hard as they can to prove the idea wrong.

This is the problem with things like morphic resonance. If there's no way for something to be wrong, then there's no sensible fashion in which it can be said to be right either.
 
We're talking about an omnipotent being that is beyond the rules of our universe by definition. I don't think it's rational to apply the rules of this universe as though they apply absolutely to all beings, especially of higher powers. You can make assumptions, but recognise that they are exactly that, assumptions.

A small point, which addresses only a portion of your interesting post:

To my thinking, any putative omnipotent being (higher intelligence or power) IS the rules of our universe - as opposed to being beyond or apart from them. Another way to look at this is "digital" or "informational" physics, which proposes the universe is essentially informational, as opposed to physical. In other words, the universe is a computer, or mind. We humans are real and solid enough, but our mind, our consciousness, may be more fundamental yet.
 
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That just seems to make things more complex than they need to be though.
Yes, it seems to be, but is it really so? Some of the greatest physicists, men who were aware of Occam's Razor and parsimonious explanation, ultimately came to this view. Me, I know nothing. But if its a lie, its an attractive one. :)
 
I believe in God and I'm proud of it. Please feel free to judge me as I know a lot of people will. I don't judge atheist or any other beliefs or lifestyle decisions. I am a Christian and I'm actually for marriage equality. The thing is, it's all about acceptance, no matter what belief you are.
 
How do you know that?

I'm not sure this answers your question, but here goes.
First because it is structured that way, and second because its unconditional, or available to anyone.
Third because it preserves autonomy, and value.
Fourth, because its relationally based.
There is no reason that the scientific method cannot be applied to non-physical aspects of reality. In fact psychology fits that description nicely.

Perhaps then, you should pursue that particular niche of scientific study.
I doubt you will get very far other than, as mentioned, the potential for a personal revelation of it.
Although, that alone would make it worth the effort.
Psychology, is still of the carnal(intellect)or physical realm.
 
A small point, which addresses only a portion of your interesting post:

To my thinking, any putative omnipotent being (higher intelligence or power) IS the rules of our universe - as opposed to being beyond or apart from them. Another way to look at this is "digital" or "informational" physics, which proposes the universe is essentially informational, as opposed to physical. In other words, the universe is a computer, or mind. We humans are real and solid enough, but our mind, our consciousness, may be more fundamental yet.

Could be.

There's a number of ways that it could work, I was merely pointing out that any god is not necessarily bound by the rules of our universe, although he may be. It would be entirely possible for our universe to be the output of a massive computing device (or to be that computing device itself, hello Douglas Adams), and there to be beings outside that system as well.

Informational physics is an interesting idea, but it's not quite there yet.

Psychology, is still of the carnal(intellect)or physical realm.

What then is the difference between the physical and the spiritual? How do you know what fits into which category?
 
@mustang fanatic

Just for clarification, when you said

Without one, we wouldn't be here. It's not like we could just appear on the Earth. Someone put us here.

did you mean just humans or life in general?

Because there are different theories for both (theory of evolution and abiogenesis, respectively). If you want to discuss the former there's another forum thread: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/creation-vs-evolution.51448/

About the latter, I'm not qualified enough to defend it, but surely Google could tell you more about it. One thing neither of them says is that humans/life "just appeared"; there's always something before.

But with the subject of God, you are knowingly or unknowingly, crossing over into the realm of the spiritual.
That is not of the same dimension as the physical.
Consequently it is not explored and confirmed with the same methods.

Can you remind me how you know about this "realm of the spiritual", located in a different dimension?
 
@mustang fanatic

Just for clarification, when you said



did you mean just humans or life in general?

Because there are different theories for both (theory of evolution and abiogenesis, respectively). If you want to discuss the former there's another forum thread: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/creation-vs-evolution.51448/

About the latter, I'm not qualified enough to defend it, but surely Google could tell you more about it. One thing neither of them says is that humans/life "just appeared"; there's always something before.

Well, life in general really.
 

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