Do you believe in God?

  • Thread starter Patrik
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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 624 30.6%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,051 51.5%

  • Total voters
    2,042
I don't believe in god. I have enough trouble deciding what pants to wear!
Edit: Actually, it comes from a run in with the church about 40 years ago
 
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Yep, just like the Bible says...


2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the luminous ring, glowing ball of light or halo of Christ, who is the image of God.

Good find. While we're at it, we will substitute "halo, or glowing ball of light" for the non-specific term glory.
 
You all know what i'm now wondering about?
Right now at this hour?
According to some information, the bible is a collection of writings and some writings date back around 3500 years ago.
There is not one bible, there are several different versions.
These version are also containing different versions of writings.

However, there are events happened that are not added to these writings.
Like that statue of maria somewere that started bleeding?
Appearrances of god that are not added to the "bible(s)".You know, people that claim they have seen god.
Why not? In these years, 3500 years ago, people believed what was claimed and got written onto "paper".
Later, all these "claims", are combined into a book.
Are these new "claims" written down and saved until they can be added to the "book"?
at least the first 1535 years are written down, the biografy of jezus is added.
What happened in the years after? Nothing? Or not much?
Or not worthy to add to the "book(s)"?
So all humans were good the next 2000 years? I'm wondering right now.


One thing i do have to praise about the authors of those writings.
They have come up with allmost, if not all, answers to every question a human can ask about disbelief or belief or (a) "god".
They did a good job to support all believers.

But the believers 3500 years ago, did not have that book, why do the believers now quote the book?
If god exists, he speaks to you, you can quote him, in his own words.
Does god speak to you? According to the "book(s)" he did 3500 years ago.
He spoke to Mozes, he used a burning bush, and on top of a mountain, gave him the stone tablets.

What happened in these last 2000 years? Not important enough to add to the "Book(s)"?


I'm going to regret this post.
 
What happened in these last 2000 years? Not important enough to add to the "Book(s)"?

It's an excellent question.

Maybe the two most important events in the history of God in the last 2000 years:
1. The Prophet Muhammad
2. Joseph Smith's visit with the Angel Moroni

If I were to add a 3rd, it might be the apparition of Mary at Fatima, 1917.
 
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But the believers 3500 years ago, did not have that book, why do the believers now quote the book?
If god exists, he speaks to you, you can quote him, in his own words.
Does god speak to you? According to the "book(s)" he did 3500 years ago.
He spoke to Mozes, he used a burning bush, and on top of a mountain, gave him the stone tablets.

What happened in these last 2000 years? Not important enough to add to the "Book(s)"?


I'm going to regret this post.[/QUOTE]

I have difficulty in accepting god spoke to anyone, I put it in the same boat as the Vikings used to think thunder was the gods upset at them.
Maybe God if he exisited has done a bunk and done one to better places than earth or if he was this wonder being maybe he died. I also wonder if god is real and made the universe and man and woman etc where was he for the millions of years before life was on earth? on his holidays? in bed with a cold? And more important is to all those who believe god created everything I ask who/what created god?
 
It's an excellent question.

Maybe the two most important events in the history of God in the last 2000 years:
1. The Prophet Muhammad
2. Joseph Smith's visit with the Angel Moroni

If I were to add a 3rd, it might be the apparition of Mary at Fatima, 1917.
What about Joan of Arc? It is written that she received visions of the Archangel Michael? Just like Maria was visited by an angel?
Only difference there is, maria was visited, and Joan had visions.
What devine person decides if a encounter with an angel or god is acceptable? The pope?
 
What about Joan of Arc? It is written that she received visions of the Archangel Michael? Just like Maria was visited by an angel?
Only difference there is, maria was visited, and Joan had visions.
What devine person decides if a encounter with an angel or god is acceptable? The pope?

Great question. Of course the Pope has some say, but perhaps the verdict of history and the actions of whole populations is at least as important. By that standard, Constantine's vision of the cross at the Battle of Milvian Bridge rises to the top. In hoc signo vinces.
 
How have you evaluated all other options and discovered they do not apply?.

By theme.

No I'm not. I understand the effects based on the Bio-chemical reactions LSD causes in the brain (this is not conjecture, its peer reviewed evidence that can be falsified).

In that you are trusting your(opinion) evaluation of your standard for evidence, yes you are.
That has no bearing on whether something exists or doesn't.
It is only, one way wherein, something maybe established.
But not the only way, or an infallible way.

That is a totally different position to 'god is one with me because I say so'.

I don't recall ever stating it that way.
It is more to the effect that, I am one among many, who have discovered this and know it to be real.
As I have stated before, it is only experienced personally, or individually, so your standard of evidence, is excluded from a positive determination anyway.

And that possibility is of zero relevance and is certainly not a valid reason to based a higher status on any one of them, its possible that you are a post-op transgender Brazilian.

You are missing the point.
If something is possible, then in the objective sense, it cannot be predetermined by your standard, that it does not exist.
Only, that by your standard there is no evidence for it.
I just pointed out the problem with that above.

Until you are able to establish how a possibility leads you to conclude that one should have a higher status is a pointless line to go down.
For reasons already described, the only way what I am claiming can be established is by testimony.

And given your past inability to distinguish between these I'm not surprised by that at all.

Thats because I do not see where they have any ligitimate application on the subject matter.

So one can be appealed to and that appeal can make a difference (up to and including a rebate and as such a direct reversal) and the other has not hope or even means of appeal.

You agree that and then still try and state its a valid analogy!

Both have hope, but in the case of God's authority, not by appeal.

This has been covered by others, but its worth borrowing a quote as I'd love to see these justified:

"Rape cannot be justified.
Slavery cannot be justified.
Mutilation cannot be justified.
Genocide cannot be justified.
Theocracy cannot be justified."

Explain how the above can be justified and you will have a point, fail to do so and you don't.

Already addressed that in another post.

None of the above can be described as ""consistent and reasonable and based on the inherent value of life".

While that is not what I am referring to on that note, its certainly a valid point.

That makes no sense at all.

To the contrary, it makes perfect sense.
Although to you, since you do not recognize the spiritual aspects involved, perhaps maybe it doesn't.

Ah so he got it wrong first time around. Then why still include it? Why do people still follow it? Why does his Son say the are still valid?.
All seems a bit inconsistent.

Perhaps you should have said, why do people still try to follow it.
Although, the reasons are really, self evident are they not?
Just as above, the list of unjustifiables.
No he got it right, the first time around.
We are the one's who get it wrong.

None of which changes it from being an intervention/going in/alternate directive.

Qualified under a covenant, yes.
Not done without regaurd for that procedure.
That is consistant with my original statement, that God cannot intervene, any way he pleases, without regaurd for
man, or man's cooperation you might say.

You made a claim that you have both failed to evidence and are now in fact directly contradicting.

To the contrary, this statement is being made, under misinterpretation
It is clearly evidenced and not contradictory, by establishment of the covenant.

Genocide is necessary. Please explain?

First of all your judgement of genocide is purely assumptive. Since you were not there, or know all the circumstances involved, there is actually no way to determine that was the case.
At the time and under the circumstances, if there was no other way to insure self preservation, then yes it was.
Since there is no way I can determine that, I have to assume God proceeded in that manner because that was the case.
Also, as said, some of these practices were allowed to show, that they were not going to solve the problem, or provide any real improvement as a permanent MO.

Ah so genocide is OK if you think someone might cause you harm, they don't actually have to do it, they just have to potentially think about doing it.

Again that is based on your assumption entirely.
During WW2, millions of Germans and Japanese were killed by Allied forces, but that, was not by most considered genocide.
There is nothing to say these other events were not similar situations.

Its still an alternate directive. He intervened and you said he didn't do that.

No, that is not what I said, in entirety

So in a nutshell if god commands you to slaughter a bunch of people then it shouldn't be questioned and its totally OK.
Glad we got to the bottom of that.

If you wish to believe that God would make such a request, without good reason, then you are certainly free to make that assumption.
However, from what I know of him, he would not do that.
 
First of all your judgement of genocide is purely assumptive. Since you were not there, or know all the circumstances involved, there is actually no way to determine that was the case.
At the time and under the circumstances, if there was no other way to insure self preservation, then yes it was.
Since there is no way I can determine that, I have to assume God proceeded in that manner because that was the case.
Also, as said, some of these practices were allowed to show, that they were not going to solve the problem, or provide any real improvement as a permanent MO.

I have no idea what the above paragraph might mean, however it seems that it's OK to make assumptions for something for which there is is no evidence, but not OK to make assumptions about events for which there is apparent evidence, but the writer was not actually there to witness it. Then it's OK to make assumptions about "god".

We are from two different worlds.

Science (based on evidence) flew people to the moon. Religion (based on no evidence) flew people into buildings.
 
I must have missed it too. Was that your answer to all 300+?

This might clear things up regarding the first few "contradictions".
“God created light”
This site also answers some specific “contradictions” in Genesis & other books.

Yes that was my response to all 300+.

Link number 1, absolutely pathetic. "Let there be" is not "creating". Give me a break. Link number 2, let's retranslate the bible again based on current understanding and read whatever we need to read into the language to fit what we think it should be. Also pathetic.
 
By theme.
Does not answer the question at all.


In that you are trusting your(opinion) evaluation of your standard for evidence, yes you are.
That has no bearing on whether something exists or doesn't.
It is only, one way wherein, something maybe established.
But not the only way, or an infallible way.
And yet you have still utterly failed to show how this 'alternate' method of establishing the existence of something actually works, it seems to hinge totally on you saying 'because I said so'.


I don't recall ever stating it that way.
It is more to the effect that, I am one among many, who have discovered this and know it to be real.
As I have stated before, it is only experienced personally, or individually, so your standard of evidence, is excluded from a positive determination anyway.
Once again its no more than you saying 'because I say so'.


You are missing the point.
If something is possible, then in the objective sense, it cannot be predetermined by your standard, that it does not exist.
Only, that by your standard there is no evidence for it.
I just pointed out the problem with that above.
And we are back to you abusing standards of evidence, what a surprise. So once again you can't prove that something doesn't exist (we have been over this many, many times).


For reasons already described, the only way what I am claiming can be established is by testimony.
Which is utterly subjective and again is simply you saying 'because I say so'.


Thats because I do not see where they have any ligitimate application on the subject matter.
Your claiming (poor) hypothesis as isit were established fact without bothering with a reasonable standard of evidence that supports objective repeat-ability or falsification.


Both have hope, but in the case of God's authority, not by appeal.
Which makes they different. If you can appeal one and not the other then they are not the same.


Already addressed that in another post.
No, you have simply said they were 'law' at the time so its all fine, what you have not done is show why they would be justifiable. Please explain how they fit you claim of "consistent and reasonable and based on the inherent value of life"



While that is not what I am referring to on that note, its certainly a valid point.
So why did you claim that the bible meets those standards?


To the contrary, it makes perfect sense.
Although to you, since you do not recognize the spiritual aspects involved, perhaps maybe it doesn't.
No it literary doesn't make sense.


Perhaps you should have said, why do people still try to follow it.
Although, the reasons are really, self evident are they not?
Just as above, the list of unjustifiables.
No he got it right, the first time around.
We are the one's who get it wrong.
Following directives that support murder, rape, slavery, etc is self evident?


Qualified under a covenant, yes.
Not done without regaurd for that procedure.
That is consistant with my original statement, that God cannot intervene, any way he pleases, without regaurd for
man, or man's cooperation you might say.
And yet he does, repeatedly (and I note the goal posts are starting to move more and more).


To the contrary, this statement is being made, under misinterpretation
It is clearly evidenced and not contradictory, by establishment of the covenant.
Explain (as once again you have butchered the English language here).


First of all your judgement of genocide is purely assumptive. Since you were not there, or know all the circumstances involved, there is actually no way to determine that was the case.
At the time and under the circumstances, if there was no other way to insure self preservation, then yes it was.
Since there is no way I can determine that, I have to assume God proceeded in that manner because that was the case.
No its based on the claims made in the OT, which called for the destruction of entire cities, however do carry on as I'm seriously interested in how you are going to manage to justify genocide under any circumstances.


Also, as said, some of these practices were allowed to show, that they were not going to solve the problem, or provide any real improvement as a permanent MO.
What practices? But whom? What are you going on about now?


Again that is based on your assumption entirely.
During WW2, millions of Germans and Japanese were killed by Allied forces, but that, was not by most considered genocide. There is nothing to say these other events were not similar situations.
What people 'consider' is irrelevant, if it meets the agreed definition of genocide, then its genocide.


No, that is not what I said, in entirety
You keep moving those goal posts.



If you wish to believe that God would make such a request, without good reason, then you are certainly free to make that assumption.
However, from what I know of him, he would not do that.
So as I asked above. What are the good reasons for genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention
 
Speaking of genocide, and god being a liar, we are surrounded by evidence of his lies.

The "flood" which god claimed to have used to kill all of humanity with the exception of the eight members of Noah's family clearly didn't happen. Nor did the use of an arc to save all the world's animals.

We are surrounded by positive evidence that these are falsehoods.
 
Good find. While we're at it, we will substitute "halo, or glowing ball of light" for the non-specific term glory.

Not me.
Proverbs 30:6 Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.


Yes that was my response to all 300+.

"absolutely pathetic."


Link number 1, absolutely pathetic. "Let there be" is not "creating". Give me a break.

Acts 28:26 ...By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means understand; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see.


Link number 2, let's retranslate the bible again based on current understanding and read whatever we need to read into the language to fit what we think it should be. Also pathetic.

Jude 1:10 But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and so they bring about their own destruction.
 
Not me.
Proverbs 30:6 Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.




"absolutely pathetic."




Acts 28:26 ...By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means understand; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see.




Jude 1:10 But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and so they bring about their own destruction.
Clever cop-outs. Here, let's make up a holy book full of vague parts that can be interpreted in so many ways that the true message ends up getting lost. And then let's make up some rules that prevent re-translating the book to make sure it stays vague.
 
"absolutely pathetic."

I gave reasons.



Acts 28:26 ...By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means understand; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see.

Non-responsive.


Jude 1:10 But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and so they bring about their own destruction.

Non-responsive.
 
Bible quotes

Why do you think that the Bible is a book worth believing? I'd like to know your train of thought, not just "because it's the word of God"; I want to understand why those particular arrangements of the 27 letters of the alphabet (plus some numbers and signs) makes it worth quoting instead of replying with your actual opinion/argument.
 
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The question is:
Is it possible, one religion, could be, more valid than another?

Possible? Sure. Right now, they're all equally unsupported by evidence, so currently none of them are more valid. I won't rule out that evidence for one of them will turn up someday, but I'm sure as heck not gonna hold my breath waiting for it.

Until then, I'll continue to live my life as if they're all untrue.

And BTW, your statement, "There is not any reason to think that any one religion, among the many that have existed, is any more valid than another," is also blatantly predjudiced and biased.

You seriously have no idea what those words mean. As far as I can tell, you think "biased" means someone who doesn't agree with you.

The way you constantly redefine words and change the rules during a conversation is really tiring.
 
And BTW, your statement, "There is not any reason to think that any one religion, among the many that have existed, is any more valid than another," is also blatantly prejudiced and biased.


NO! NO NO NO NO NO!

It is the most unbiased, unprejudiced stance there is.

YOU are being blatantly biased. (I don't think anyone here is being prejudiced but hey, it's a big word to throw at someone!!)
 
Possible? Sure. Right now, they're all equally unsupported by evidence, so currently none of them are more valid. I won't rule out that evidence for one of them will turn up someday, but I'm sure as heck not gonna hold my breath waiting for it.

Until then, I'll continue to live my life as if they're all untrue.

Equally unsupported by your standard of evidence.
Which is fine for your individual determination.
The only problem with it is, it is not comprehensive or infallible.
So it is entirely possible, if one is more valid than another, you will never know about it.

You seriously have no idea what those words mean. As far as I can tell, you think "biased" means someone who doesn't agree with you.

"Biased" means just what the definition says.

"a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice."

You are under the impression, since your standard says they are all the same, thats unbiased.
What you fail to realize is, your standard invokes "a particular tendency or inclination that prevents unpredjudiced consideration " right from the get-go.

That is factual, because one(religion) could exist that is more valid, but by your standard it is not recognizable.

The way you constantly redefine words and change the rules during a conversation is really tiring.

I'm not redefining anything.
I'm not changing any rules other than, what can be shown to be a incomplete or incorrect rule.
I'm just pointing out the true reality of a determination, that is not as tidy as some think it is.
 
NO! NO NO NO NO NO!!

THE standard of evidence. The same standard that has been applied to every bit of human knowledge gained thus far in our history.
Ah but @SuperCobraJet means the 'magic' that makes his culturally indoctrinated religion better that all the others.

He just can't provide any proof of it (despite claims) that can be repeatable, objective or falsifiable, so he resorts to a new invented standard that must be right because he says so (and anyone who asks for objective, repeatable and falsifiable standards is clearly biased - he just can't explain why, but boy will he say it).
 
That is factual, because one(religion) could exist that is more valid, but by your standard it is not recognizable.

Are you actually saying that he's biased for stating that all religions are equally invalid, just because one could be more valid but that it would be impossible to determine which?

What planet do you come from on which that constitutes anything like a rational thought, under any circumstances?

He's stated his reasoning, and under that reasoning all religions are equally invalid. No particular preference is given to any religion, so it is not biased.

You, on the other hand, seem sure that your religion is more valid. Why is rather hard to say. As several people keep pointing out, at any given point your justifications are about two steps from "because I said so". It's not even that you're operating within a different logical system, or anything like that. If you were, you'd have no trouble explaining to the rest of us what your reasoning is within your own system, and why you come to the conclusions that you do. You're simply not making any effort, because in your world (apparently) stuff just is. God is, and it's obvious to everyone. The Bible is true, and it's obvious to everyone.

The thing about stuff that's obvious to everyone, is that it's usually not actually obvious to everyone. It's usually a form of groupthink that stops people asking awkward questions.

Until you can actually explain why your religion has a leg up on any of the other religions, even from your own point of view, I wouldn't get too shocked when nobody takes your claim of superiority seriously.
 
THE standard of evidence. The same standard that has been applied to every bit of human knowledge gained thus far in our history.

Unfortunately, there is no single standard of evidence. By far the greatest bulk of human knowledge has been acquired by experience. Experience happens uniquely in every individual, and it is impossible to replicate another person's felt, inner experience.

The religious experience has been felt across the entire world population for thousands upon thousands of years. Only a tiny few in the last few hundred years have denied the religious experience and sought to stake out a more rational basis for knowledge. Humans seem to be stuck with religious experience as part of their DNA. It may well be hardwired in. Sometimes atheists become dogmatic, and enforce their idiosyncratic beliefs at the point of a gun, as in the former USSR and in present day North Korea.

In my view, the religious experience that people acquire varies from place to place and time to time. Hence religious experience is always a lie. But as you know, sometimes a lie can be beautiful, useful or necessary. The story of the conception, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ is just such a lie.
 
Unfortunately, there is no single standard of evidence. By far the greatest bulk of human knowledge has been acquired by experience. Experience happens uniquely in every individual, and it is impossible to replicate another person's felt, inner experience.
If you wish to talk in general terms then yes 'personal experience' is a form of evidence, and on the scale of evidence its very, very low (take a look at just how accurate eye-witness evidence actually is).

In terms of establishing the existence of something or proving a set of circumstances its utterly useless, for that reason a standard of evidence that is objective, repeatable and falsifiable has served humanity rather well.

A big different also exists between hypothesis and theory (as in the overarching theory that supports all known facts and data on a subject), for which 'experience' is useless. Yet SCJ has repeatedly positioned his 'hypothesis of christian superiority' as if it were established theory with supporting facts. Its not.

Oh and the greatest bulk of human knowledge has come from and been re-enforced by the scientific standard of evidence, not from subjective experience.


The religious experience has been felt across the entire world population for thousands upon thousands of years. Only a tiny few in the last few hundred years have denied the religious experience and sought to stake out a more rational basis for knowledge.
A tiny few in the last hundred years?

Sorry but no.


Humans seem to be stuck with religious experience as part of their DNA. It may well be hardwired in. Sometimes atheists become dogmatic, and enforce their idiosyncratic beliefs at the point of a gun, as in the former USSR and in present day North Korea.
Are you trying to suggest that Atheism lead them to these actions?

In which case I'm going to ask for a rather large citation on both.

As in both cases control of religion has nothing to do with being an Atheist, and simply about removing obstacles of opposition. In the case of Stalin he was quote happy in 1941 to re-open all of the churches as he saw it as needed to bolster his war effort. Neither state was formed off the back of an atheist doctrine (as no such thing exists.

Your claim is akin to stating that as all members of the IRA/IS/LRA are Catholic/Muslim/Christian, then all Catholics/Muslims/Christians are terrorists.



In my view, the religious experience that people acquire varies from place to place and time to time. Hence religious experience is always a lie. But as you know, sometimes a lie can be beautiful, useful or necessary. The story of the conception, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ is just such a lie.
Personal experience is personal experience, its the reality for that person. That doesn't however mean its true and as such is a (as established) very poor standard of evidence.
 
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A high quality post that adds significantly to the discussion.

Do you honestly not understand the issue with using personal experience to establish existence?

Or experience and the perceptions that help form it are incredibly easy to fool and as a result not actually that reliable at all. This page...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=visual illusions perception&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=799&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=mJsNVKT8L8iIsQSD1IKoAg&ved=0CCUQsAQ

..contains a fair few examples of just how easy it is to do for a single sense.

Testing to a scientific standard however has a bit of a better success rate.

I'm willing to give it a go however, please provide an example by which the existence of something can be established beyond any doubt using personal experience.
 
I'm willing to give it a go however, please provide an example by which the existence of something can be established beyond any doubt using personal experience.



How do I know I exist? Do I ask someone else if I exist, or consult my biometric driver's license or official social security card to determine my existence? Of course not.

I see, I hear, I smell, I taste, I feel my existence every waking moment. These personally felt experiences, which you can neither feel nor replicate, are how I know I exist.

If, with your own hands, you assisted in giving birth to your wife's child, would you doubt the existence of the new life? When humans mutually share experience, there begins the building of a knowledge base.
 
How do I know I exist?
You don't.

At best you can strongly suspect the you are the origin of your own thoughts - but everything else could be an illusion, emergent from this consciousness.
 
How do I know I exist? Do I ask someone else if I exist, or consult my biometric driver's license or official social security card to determine my existence? Of course not.

I see, I hear, I smell, I taste, I feel my existence every waking moment. These personally felt experiences, which you can neither feel nor replicate, are how I know I exist.

If, with your own hands, you assisted in giving birth to your wife's child, would you doubt the existence of the new life? When humans mutually share experience, there begins the building of a knowledge base.
How you know you/we are not part of a computer program?

How do you know we are not a dream?

You claim that your personal experience establishes knowledge in these areas, but the actual truth is that it doesn't, you have not established by personal experience that you exist (or for that matter any of us).
 
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