Do you believe in God?

  • Thread starter Patrik
  • 24,489 comments
  • 1,140,841 views

Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 624 30.6%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,051 51.5%

  • Total voters
    2,042
No one can prove or disprove the existence of a deity, I find all of this a colossal waste of time.

That's not entirely true. Objective evidence of a deity would be sufficient to prove that He exists.

If a supreme being exists, and if he has interacted with people (as pretty much all religions seem to state at some point or other) then somewhere out there are people who have interacted with God.

For those of us who haven't interacted with God, accurate descriptions of those experiences would be very enlightening. They might even lead to other people being able to interact or detect God in some manner, thus providing objective evidence for his existence.

On the other hand, as long as all the religionists keep their cards close to their chest there's no chance anyone will ever understand what is really happening in these holy experiences.

That's what I find a colossal waste of time. Those who claim greater experience or knowledge refuse to share it with others. The unexplained experiences thread is far more enlightening in that sense that I've ever seen this thread be.
 
I've been in and out of this thread for a while now.

The last several pages have been the same players in the same arguments, maybe using different words. Just exasperating.

No one can prove or disprove the existence of a deity, I find all of this a colossal waste of time. (not reading it, that has been entertaining, but the huge posts that are being so thoughtfully written)

That being said, I feel a real appreciation for religion as far as my mother is concerned. She is the last surviving member of her immediate family. Her mother, father, and all of her siblings, including her identical twin sister have passed away. It has been her faith that has allowed her to be as strong as she has been. For that I am very grateful.

My entire family is Evangelical christian (Bapstis) and I'm not grateful for that. Religion can help them through tough situations in life its true. But ultimately, they probably are wrong. Imagining the worst possible scenario, imagine that Islam is true - that implies that all of them have lived a lie and will go to hell believing they«ll go to paradise.

In a more reasonable thought, they wasted their lives believing in something and probably they won't find anything after dead.

I'm not grateful to religion for the good things it can give if its basis are lies. That's why I left it. And it's not a good thing being the only atheist in a family who believes in Adam and Eve , the Noah's flood and that you're "lost" and will go to hell. But truth is more important than circumstances. I'm grateful to reason and science and to people who made me question my beliefs (some of them are members of GTP).


On the "no one can prove or disprove the existence of a deity" I'm not so sure I agreed.

I agreed that it's impossible to disprove a non-falsifiable proposition (like gods) but it shouldn't to be impossible to prove their existence if he/they inferfere with reality in some way. Believers claim that god intervenes in the real world, so we should be able (if we had the tehcnology) to mesure or "see" that process.
 
I think you guys missed the point of chrunch's post he is grateful for his experience with his mothers beleif in a deity, where as zzz_pt has had the opposite experience.

There is always going to be an argument for and an argument against, some are going to need more than others to believe, some will never.

I think that this is what he was referring to as a colossal waste of time, that after reading the thread the arguments are at a stalemate, neither side is willing to accept that from their perspective, each other can be right in their opinion.

Usually a testimony is very personal and I can understand the reluctance to share this through an internet forum for it to be picked apart.
Conversely its obviously needed for unbelievers to accept anything that is said in defence of a deity.

What it comes down to is some need proof, some don't.

Religion teaches you faith, science needs proof.

You are hardly ever going to agree.

The title of this thread is Do you believe in god? Not why? Of course it would be nice to back up whatever you claim, but no one is under any obligation to.
 
What it comes down to is some need proof, some don't.

Religion teaches you faith, science needs proof.
And that's the point. Some members are claiming they have proof of their deity.

Since this can't happen, they're having to reinvent practically every word to make it happen. We're talking root and branch redefinitions of words like "evidence", "theory", "scientific", "objective", "fact", "falsifiability" and indeed "proof" itself. It's an attack on the core of all knowledge held today and all future knowledge.

Moreover, it's an attack on faith. Once you have proof of a deity, who needs to believe in them any more? I'm surprised more of the believers aren't pounding down on this ridiculous line of enquiry.


Generally speaking, atheists - even militant ones like Dawkins - accept that the faithful believe in whichever deity they believe in and are happy for them to do so. Faith and belief are defined by the absence of evidence. Where atheists and some of the faithful differ is in how much this faith and belief should be allowed to govern everyone's lives through legislation (or, as the argument naturally progresses to the militant fundamentalists amongst the faithful, brutality) - we don't think that laws should be in place based on religion to limit behaviour, rather they should be based on knowledge and, thus, evidence.

Nor do we think laws should be in place to limit religion. Even super-militant atheists don't want to ban churches (or mosques, or synagogues, or temples) - we just don't want churches given any more recognition by government than any other building or gathering.

This level of acceptance rarely comes back our way though.
 
I think that this is what he was referring to as a colossal waste of time, that after reading the thread the arguments are at a stalemate, neither side is willing to accept that from their perspective, each other can be right in their opinion.
Opinion is not a problem (but it is nice when its explained), belief is not a problem at all.

What does become an issue is when fact is claimed (as SCJ has repeatedly done) then it does need to be supported, if at that point none can be provided (or we get nonsense and redefinition) then its not going to be very convincing.

As for it being a 'waste of time' I disagree, a good solid debate and discussion (regardless of if agreement is reached) is a good mental exercise and often results in gaining more knowledge when investigation a point (or an exercise in creative writing and fiction for at least one member).
 
I agree with both of you, but SCJ is unlikey (from reading through posts) to ever provide this so called proof, for whatever reason he has, in my opinion there is no proof, otherwise simply put he would just present it.

He likes to talk about peoples opinions, experiences, as a whole and believes that you should be happy to accept these "eye witness" accounts (for want of a better phrase) as the definitive proof that you are asking for.

As this debate continues, and in my opinion SCJ is doing more harm than good, I have noticed that he doesnt respond to the positive, in his corner posts and yet only responds to disagree and argue, his idea of witnessing to the unbelievers does not come accross in a postive fashion. So is he a time waster? I would agree with you that SCJ would have to provide his testimony to back up his previous claims, but to extend this debate further please dont extend SCJ shortcomings to the new people joining in, am I making a fair point?
 
am I making a fair point?
Yes and no.

People aren't judged on what they believe or don't, they're judged on the strength of their arguments. And even then, it's the arguments that are taken to task, not the people. There's many atheists who can't discuss this topic for toffee - and many believers of different flavours who are good to talk with.

So yes, it's fair to say that's what should be done - but since that's what is done it's not really necessary to say so.
 
I'll leave this here:
THE HARBINGERS - 9/11/2001
Based on Isaiah 9:10, - “The bricks have fallen, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will plant cedars in their place,” the northern 10 Tribes of Israel refused to repent after they were struck by the Assyrians - which was a warning from the Lord. Instead of listening to the alarm, of turning back, and humbling themselves in repentance, they boasted of their resolve, that they would rebuild stronger and better than before. They ignored the warning and rejected the call to return. They defied it. Sadly, their defiance led to the nation’s total destruction years later. The ancient prophecy forms the key to the nine harbingers of judgment, which are given to a nation in danger of judgment – each of which have reappeared on American soil – marking America as the nation in danger of judgment.

The First Harbinger: The Breach. In 732 B.C., the hedge of protection was removed and Israel’s enemies invade the land and wreak havoc. The calamity traumatizes the nation but it takes place on a limited scale, as with 9/11. The warning is the removal of the hedge. On September 11, 2001, America’s hedge of protection was removed – the breach of America’s security, and was a sign that God has lifted His protective hand.

The Second Harbinger: The Terrorist. It was the dark shadow of Assyrian terror that loomed over the kingdom of Israel. The danger against which the prophets had warned. And when, years later, Israel’s final judgment came, the Assyrians would again be the means through which it would happen. So, too, the attack
on America is carried out by terrorists. The Assyrians were a Semitic people, children of the Middle East. So too were the terrorists of 9/11.

The Third Harbinger: The Fallen Bricks. The most visible signs of the attack on ancient Israel were that of the fallen buildings and the ruin heaps of fallen bricks. The third harbinger is the sign of the fallen bricks of the fallen buildings. On Sept 11, 2001, Americans were confronted with the same sign, fallen bricks of the fallen buildings of the wreckage of Ground Zero. America was not turning back to God. It was a short-lived spiritual revival that never came.

The Fourth Harbinger: The Tower. Israel defiantly began rebuilding on the devastated ground, vowing to rebuild higher and stronger. So, too, in the wake of 9/11, American leaders vowed to rebuild at Ground Zero higher and stronger – the Tower begins to rise at Ground Zero. Those involved act unwittingly.

The Fifth Harbinger: The Gazit Stone. We will rebuild with quarried stone - The Israelites carve out quarried stone from mountain rock and bring it back to the ground of destruction where clay bricks once stood. Three years after 9/11, a stone is quarried out of the mountain rock of New York. This massive stone was brought back to Ground Zero. In ancient Israel this stone became a misplaced embodiment of the nation’s confidence in its own power. So too the massive stone at Ground Zero became the symbolic cornerstone of the rebuilding. Public ceremonies accompanied the stone placement. Plans to rebuild Ground Zero would be frustrated for years. Eventually they would remove the stone from GZ altogether.

The Sixth Harbinger: The Sycamore. The Sycamores have been cut down - The attack on ancient Israel resulted in the striking down of the sycamore tree, a biblical sign of national judgment. The fallen sycamore is a sign of uprooting, a warning and, in ignoring the warning, it becomes a prophecy of judgment. On 9/11, as the North Tower fell it sent debris and wreckage which struck and uprooted an object – a sycamore tree growing at Ground Zero. The tree was made into a symbol and named The Sycamore of Ground Zero. When it fell in ancient Israel it prophesied the nation’s downfall and the end of its kingdom. What happens to America depends on if the warning is heeded.

The Seventh Harbinger: The Erez Tree. But we will plant cedars in their place - In their defiance of God, the Israelites replace the fallen sycamore with a Cedar tree. The cedar, being stronger than the sycamore becomes a symbol of the nation’s arrogant hope that it will emerge from the crisis stronger than before. The English name for this tree is “Cedar,” but the Hebrew word is “Erez.” Erezstands not only for cedar but for a conifer tree of the panacea family. In November of 2003, a tree was lowered at the corner of Ground Zero into the soil where the fallen sycamore once stood. The tree was a conifer, a panacea tree, the biblical Erez. A ceremony was held around the tree and it, too, became a symbol – entitled The Tree of Hope. There is always hope. A nation’s true hope is found only in returning to God.

The Eight Harbinger: The Utterance. The Eighth Harbinger was the public speaking of the ancient vow of defiance. For this harbinger to manifest, the vow would have to be spoken in the nation’s capital by a national leader, as it had been in ancient Israel. On Sept 11, 2004, every object mentioned in the prophecy of Isaiah 9:10 had manifested. The public utterance of the prophecy had to take place publicly, which happened on Sept 11, 2004 when VP candidate John Edwards, giving a speech in the capital city, quoted this exact scripture word for word in Wash., DC. Without realizing it, he was joining the two nations together and, without realizing it, pronouncing judgment on America. The ancient and the modern were bound together.

The Ninth Harbinger: The Prophecy. The Ninth Harbinger is the proclaiming of the ancient vow as prophecy, as a matter of public record, and spoken before the words come true. On Sept 12, 2001, the day after
9/11, America issues its official response to the attack. The one in charge of issuing the response was Tom Daschle, Senate Majority Leader. As he closes his speech he makes a declaration – he proclaims the ancient vow of defiance, word for word, to the world. By doing so he prophesies the nation’s future course, all of which comes to pass.
 
I'll leave this here:
THE HARBINGERS - 9/11/2001
Based on Isaiah 9:10, - “The bricks have fallen, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will plant cedars in their place,” the northern 10 Tribes of Israel refused to repent after they were struck by the Assyrians - which was a warning from the Lord. Instead of listening to the alarm, of turning back, and humbling themselves in repentance, they boasted of their resolve, that they would rebuild stronger and better than before. They ignored the warning and rejected the call to return. They defied it. Sadly, their defiance led to the nation’s total destruction years later. The ancient prophecy forms the key to the nine harbingers of judgment, which are given to a nation in danger of judgment – each of which have reappeared on American soil – marking America as the nation in danger of judgment.

The First Harbinger: The Breach. In 732 B.C., the hedge of protection was removed and Israel’s enemies invade the land and wreak havoc. The calamity traumatizes the nation but it takes place on a limited scale, as with 9/11. The warning is the removal of the hedge. On September 11, 2001, America’s hedge of protection was removed – the breach of America’s security, and was a sign that God has lifted His protective hand.

The Second Harbinger: The Terrorist. It was the dark shadow of Assyrian terror that loomed over the kingdom of Israel. The danger against which the prophets had warned. And when, years later, Israel’s final judgment came, the Assyrians would again be the means through which it would happen. So, too, the attack
on America is carried out by terrorists. The Assyrians were a Semitic people, children of the Middle East. So too were the terrorists of 9/11.

The Third Harbinger: The Fallen Bricks. The most visible signs of the attack on ancient Israel were that of the fallen buildings and the ruin heaps of fallen bricks. The third harbinger is the sign of the fallen bricks of the fallen buildings. On Sept 11, 2001, Americans were confronted with the same sign, fallen bricks of the fallen buildings of the wreckage of Ground Zero. America was not turning back to God. It was a short-lived spiritual revival that never came.

The Fourth Harbinger: The Tower. Israel defiantly began rebuilding on the devastated ground, vowing to rebuild higher and stronger. So, too, in the wake of 9/11, American leaders vowed to rebuild at Ground Zero higher and stronger – the Tower begins to rise at Ground Zero. Those involved act unwittingly.

The Fifth Harbinger: The Gazit Stone. We will rebuild with quarried stone - The Israelites carve out quarried stone from mountain rock and bring it back to the ground of destruction where clay bricks once stood. Three years after 9/11, a stone is quarried out of the mountain rock of New York. This massive stone was brought back to Ground Zero. In ancient Israel this stone became a misplaced embodiment of the nation’s confidence in its own power. So too the massive stone at Ground Zero became the symbolic cornerstone of the rebuilding. Public ceremonies accompanied the stone placement. Plans to rebuild Ground Zero would be frustrated for years. Eventually they would remove the stone from GZ altogether.

The Sixth Harbinger: The Sycamore. The Sycamores have been cut down - The attack on ancient Israel resulted in the striking down of the sycamore tree, a biblical sign of national judgment. The fallen sycamore is a sign of uprooting, a warning and, in ignoring the warning, it becomes a prophecy of judgment. On 9/11, as the North Tower fell it sent debris and wreckage which struck and uprooted an object – a sycamore tree growing at Ground Zero. The tree was made into a symbol and named The Sycamore of Ground Zero. When it fell in ancient Israel it prophesied the nation’s downfall and the end of its kingdom. What happens to America depends on if the warning is heeded.

The Seventh Harbinger: The Erez Tree. But we will plant cedars in their place - In their defiance of God, the Israelites replace the fallen sycamore with a Cedar tree. The cedar, being stronger than the sycamore becomes a symbol of the nation’s arrogant hope that it will emerge from the crisis stronger than before. The English name for this tree is “Cedar,” but the Hebrew word is “Erez.” Erezstands not only for cedar but for a conifer tree of the panacea family. In November of 2003, a tree was lowered at the corner of Ground Zero into the soil where the fallen sycamore once stood. The tree was a conifer, a panacea tree, the biblical Erez. A ceremony was held around the tree and it, too, became a symbol – entitled The Tree of Hope. There is always hope. A nation’s true hope is found only in returning to God.

The Eight Harbinger: The Utterance. The Eighth Harbinger was the public speaking of the ancient vow of defiance. For this harbinger to manifest, the vow would have to be spoken in the nation’s capital by a national leader, as it had been in ancient Israel. On Sept 11, 2004, every object mentioned in the prophecy of Isaiah 9:10 had manifested. The public utterance of the prophecy had to take place publicly, which happened on Sept 11, 2004 when VP candidate John Edwards, giving a speech in the capital city, quoted this exact scripture word for word in Wash., DC. Without realizing it, he was joining the two nations together and, without realizing it, pronouncing judgment on America. The ancient and the modern were bound together.

The Ninth Harbinger: The Prophecy. The Ninth Harbinger is the proclaiming of the ancient vow as prophecy, as a matter of public record, and spoken before the words come true. On Sept 12, 2001, the day after
9/11, America issues its official response to the attack. The one in charge of issuing the response was Tom Daschle, Senate Majority Leader. As he closes his speech he makes a declaration – he proclaims the ancient vow of defiance, word for word, to the world. By doing so he prophesies the nation’s future course, all of which comes to pass.

And there I was blaming Muslim terrorists for the carnage of 9/11, when it turns out that it was the God of Christianity who masterminded the attack!
 
And when we thought SCJ was a tough one, EF12345678 appears.

Edit: maybe not. You're only 14. Probably you didn't even thought about what you've posted (about the 9/11)...
 
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And when we thought SCJ was a tough one, EF12345678 appears.
I have no idea what you're referring to.
EDIT:

I did a quick search, @SuperCobraJet is who I found.
Edit: maybe not. You're only 14. Probably you didn't even thought about what you've posted (about the 9/11)...
How'd you find out how old I was? I thought I turned the birth year off in the settings. :P
I thought about what I posted. It makes sense to me. All the evidence is there.

I'm grateful to reason and science and to people who made me question my beliefs (some of them are members of GTP).
Just an FYI to @zzz_pt and @Famine, I will not depart, or let large tempting words separate me from my beliefs. There is a superior to everyone in the world. If you have a job, you have a boss. It's only logical there is a boss over all of the people in the world.
 
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If you have a job, you have a boss. It's only logical there is a boss over all of the people in the world.

I suppose you are completely unacquainted with the concepts of entrepreneurship, nomadism or the hermitic lifestyle?
 
I suppose you are completely unacquainted with the concepts of entrepreneurship
Still, there are rules in-place for that (businesses).
I know what it means to be a nomad (you move around a lot), but wherever you live, don't you have to follow the laws and standards in place there, provided you're not in the middle of no where?
hermitic lifestyle?
I'll admit, I had to Google this one. How can you be influenced by no one? Your parents don't dump you off in a cave when you're a baby, do they? Your boss is nature. If you don't ever speak to anyone, you must rely on nature.

OK, I'll bite.

What evidence?
Ahem:


THE HARBINGERS - 9/11/2001
Based on Isaiah 9:10, - “The bricks have fallen, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will plant cedars in their place,” the northern 10 Tribes of Israel refused to repent after they were struck by the Assyrians - which was a warning from the Lord. Instead of listening to the alarm, of turning back, and humbling themselves in repentance, they boasted of their resolve, that they would rebuild stronger and better than before. They ignored the warning and rejected the call to return. They defied it. Sadly, their defiance led to the nation’s total destruction years later. The ancient prophecy forms the key to the nine harbingers of judgment, which are given to a nation in danger of judgment – each of which have reappeared on American soil – marking America as the nation in danger of judgment.

The First Harbinger: The Breach. In 732 B.C., the hedge of protection was removed and Israel’s enemies invade the land and wreak havoc. The calamity traumatizes the nation but it takes place on a limited scale, as with 9/11. The warning is the removal of the hedge. On September 11, 2001, America’s hedge of protection was removed – the breach of America’s security, and was a sign that God has lifted His protective hand.

The Second Harbinger: The Terrorist. It was the dark shadow of Assyrian terror that loomed over the kingdom of Israel. The danger against which the prophets had warned. And when, years later, Israel’s final judgment came, the Assyrians would again be the means through which it would happen. So, too, the attack
on America is carried out by terrorists. The Assyrians were a Semitic people, children of the Middle East. So too were the terrorists of 9/11.

The Third Harbinger: The Fallen Bricks. The most visible signs of the attack on ancient Israel were that of the fallen buildings and the ruin heaps of fallen bricks. The third harbinger is the sign of the fallen bricks of the fallen buildings. On Sept 11, 2001, Americans were confronted with the same sign, fallen bricks of the fallen buildings of the wreckage of Ground Zero. America was not turning back to God. It was a short-lived spiritual revival that never came.

The Fourth Harbinger: The Tower. Israel defiantly began rebuilding on the devastated ground, vowing to rebuild higher and stronger. So, too, in the wake of 9/11, American leaders vowed to rebuild at Ground Zero higher and stronger – the Tower begins to rise at Ground Zero. Those involved act unwittingly.

The Fifth Harbinger: The Gazit Stone. We will rebuild with quarried stone - The Israelites carve out quarried stone from mountain rock and bring it back to the ground of destruction where clay bricks once stood. Three years after 9/11, a stone is quarried out of the mountain rock of New York. This massive stone was brought back to Ground Zero. In ancient Israel this stone became a misplaced embodiment of the nation’s confidence in its own power. So too the massive stone at Ground Zero became the symbolic cornerstone of the rebuilding. Public ceremonies accompanied the stone placement. Plans to rebuild Ground Zero would be frustrated for years. Eventually they would remove the stone from GZ altogether.

The Sixth Harbinger: The Sycamore. The Sycamores have been cut down - The attack on ancient Israel resulted in the striking down of the sycamore tree, a biblical sign of national judgment. The fallen sycamore is a sign of uprooting, a warning and, in ignoring the warning, it becomes a prophecy of judgment. On 9/11, as the North Tower fell it sent debris and wreckage which struck and uprooted an object – a sycamore tree growing at Ground Zero. The tree was made into a symbol and named The Sycamore of Ground Zero. When it fell in ancient Israel it prophesied the nation’s downfall and the end of its kingdom. What happens to America depends on if the warning is heeded.

The Seventh Harbinger: The Erez Tree. But we will plant cedars in their place - In their defiance of God, the Israelites replace the fallen sycamore with a Cedar tree. The cedar, being stronger than the sycamore becomes a symbol of the nation’s arrogant hope that it will emerge from the crisis stronger than before. The English name for this tree is “Cedar,” but the Hebrew word is “Erez.”Erezstands not only for cedar but for a conifer tree of the panacea family. In November of 2003, a tree was lowered at the corner of Ground Zero into the soil where the fallen sycamore once stood. The tree was a conifer, a panacea tree, the biblical Erez. A ceremony was held around the tree and it, too, became a symbol – entitled The Tree of Hope. There is always hope. A nation’s true hope is found only in returning to God.

The Eight Harbinger: The Utterance. The Eighth Harbinger was the public speaking of the ancient vow of defiance. For this harbinger to manifest, the vow would have to be spoken in the nation’s capital by a national leader, as it had been in ancient Israel. On Sept 11, 2004, every object mentioned in the prophecy of Isaiah 9:10 had manifested. The public utterance of the prophecy had to take place publicly, which happened on Sept 11, 2004 when VP candidate John Edwards, giving a speech in the capital city, quoted this exact scripture word for word in Wash., DC. Without realizing it, he was joining the two nations together and, without realizing it, pronouncing judgment on America. The ancient and the modern were bound together.

The Ninth Harbinger: The Prophecy. The Ninth Harbinger is the proclaiming of the ancient vow as prophecy, as a matter of public record, and spoken before the words come true. On Sept 12, 2001, the day after
9/11, America issues its official response to the attack. The one in charge of issuing the response was Tom Daschle, Senate Majority Leader. As he closes his speech he makes a declaration – he proclaims the ancient vow of defiance, word for word, to the world. By doing so he prophesies the nation’s future course, all of which comes to pass.
How can a book, thousands of years old, predict something as detailed as this and have it play out right in front of millions of people without some help from a supernatural being (God)? Planes were not even invented, but they were in the prediction too. Explain that.
Isaiah 5:26-30
26 He lifts up a banner for the distant nations, he whistles for those at the ends of the earth. Here they come, swiftly and speedily! 27 Not one of them grows tired or stumbles, not one slumbers or sleeps; not a belt is loosened at the waist, not a sandal thong is broken. 28 Their arrows are sharp, all their bows are strung; their horses' hoofs seem like flint, their chariot wheels like a whirlwind. 29 Their roar is like that of the lion, they roar like young lions; they growl as they seize their prey and carry it off with no one to rescue. 30 In that day they will roar over it like the roaring of the sea. And if one looks at the land, he will see darkness and distress; even the light will be darkened by the clouds.
 
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There is a superior to everyone in the world. If you have a job, you have a boss. It's only logical there is a boss over all of the people in the world.

Who is His boss? If everyone has a boss, surely He has one too?

If not, why not?
 
Who is His boss? If everyone has a boss, surely He has one too?

If not, why not?
I figured someone would jump on that opportunity to try to prove me wrong.
Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

There is an ending point somewhere, for sure, like there is for everything. That ending point of the chain is at God.

Think of it like a business. You have the boss over the boss over the boss, and then the chain ends for that specific business.
 
@EF12345678, I was, and am still, unaware that the Bible has been credited with predicting the invention of planes. How long ago was it recognized that the Bible foretold human flight? Before or after the invention of planes? In other words, were the Biblical words unambiguous enough to be interpreted as foretelling flight, or was that meaning retrofitted to the Biblical words with the advantage of hindsight.

However, even if it did, it would not be alone there. Ever since someone with imagination observed a bird there have been people imagining flight.

Icarus, Jatayu, Kua Fu, Bladud and Etana all met their deaths in flight in a wide range of places.

In 1945, Arthur C Clark foretold of geostationary communications satellites, but he was not a God. In fact, he was an Atheist in the later years of his life, having done a lot of thinking about the subject.
 
@EF12345678, I was, and am still, unaware that the Bible has been credited with predicting the invention of planes. How long ago was it recognized that the Bible foretold human flight? Before or after the invention of planes? In other words, were the Biblical words unambiguous enough to be interpreted as foretelling flight, or was that meaning retrofitted to the Biblical words with the advantage of hindsight.

However, even if it did, it would not be alone there. Ever since someone with imagination observed a bird there have been people imagining flight.

Icarus, Jatayu, Kua Fu, Bladud and Etana all met their deaths in flight in a wide range of places.

In 1945, Arthur C Clark foretold of geostationary communications satellites, but he was not a God. In fact, he was an Atheist in the later years of his life, having done a lot of thinking about the subject.
But the description is of modern planes, not being a bird.
Their roar is like that of the lion, they roar like young lions; they growl as they seize their prey and carry it off with no one to rescue.
--
Their arrows are sharp, all their bows are strung; their horses' hoofs seem like flint, their chariot wheels like a whirlwind.


-------------
Actually, I have a question for all of you Atheists. What is so bad in believing something? Even if it is not real (I'm not saying it isn't) why put your trust in no one superior? What do you have to loose? (And don't say your mind)
 
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I figured someone would jump on that opportunity to try to prove me wrong.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I'm trying to understand your reasoning. Don't get all defensive before we've even started conversing.

Either your statement that "everyone has a boss" is universally true, in which case God has a boss as well.
Or it's not universally true, in which case it's relevant to ask in which cases is it not true and why.

There is an ending point somewhere, for sure, like there is for everything. That ending point of the chain is at God.

Think of it like a business. You have the boss over the boss over the boss, and then the chain ends for that specific business.

What is unique about God that makes Him the endpoint? Why does it not end at Man, or squirrels, or jellyfish?

The other question that springs to mind with regard to the idea of a hierarchy:
If God is at the top, where do we fit in? Are we one step down from Him, or are there other beings in between?

Actually, I have a question for all of you Atheists. What is so bad in believing something? Even if it is not real (I'm not saying it isn't) why put your trust in no one superior? What do you have to loose? (And don't say your mind)

There's nothing bad.

But I choose to make my decisions based on what I know, not what I believe. I see no benefit to me to believing in something that may or may not be true. I put my trust in people and institutions that I know have my best interests at heart, or at least have common goals. If God does exist, I know very little about Him and what I do know leads me to think that he does not necessarily have my best interest at heart, nor do we have common goals.

You say that you might as well just believe, because there's nothing to lose. I say that I might as well not believe, because there's nothing to gain. And quite a bit to lose, actually, if you count wasting my life serving some imaginary being instead of dedicating it to being a nice guy, helping my community and generally learning more about the world.
 
Still, there are rules in-place for that (businesses).

Whose rules? Are they all the same? (obviously not.)

I know what it means to be a nomad (you move around a lot), but wherever you live, don't you have to follow the laws and standards in place there, provided you're not in the middle of no where?

Nope. When your land is not under any jurisdiction, nope. And how would that play out, anyway, before countries were conceptualized?

I'll admit, I had to Google this one. How can you be influenced by no one? Your parents don't dump you off in a cave when you're a baby, do they? Your boss is nature. If you don't ever speak to anyone, you must rely on nature.

"Nature's Laws" are vastly different from "God's Laws."

Their roar is like that of the lion, they roar like young lions; they growl as they seize their prey and carry it off with no one to rescue.
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Their arrows are sharp, all their bows are strung; their horses' hoofs seem like flint, their chariot wheels like a whirlwind.

Cars roar like lions. Airplanes buzz like monstrous locusts.

And, I'd like to point out, they don't fly using chariot wheels. (whirling sword blades would be more appropriate)

The Indian "prediction" of nuclear weapons is more impressive.

And it gives the term "Broken Arrow" a whole new meaning.
 
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But the description is of modern planes, not being a bird.
Their roar is like that of the lion, they roar like young lions; they growl as they seize their prey and carry it off with no one to rescue.

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Their arrows are sharp, all their bows are strung; their horses' hoofs seem like flint, their chariot wheels like a whirlwind.

I didn't suggest that people who viewed birds imagined becoming a bird, rather that they imagined flight.

And if the above is your idea of a description of a modern plane, then maybe you should travel a little. Modern planes don't seize their prey, they don't have arrows or bows, they don't have horses' hooves, nor chariot wheels. Birds of prey DO seize their prey and carry it off.
 
Actually, I have a question for all of you Atheists. What is so bad in believing something?
Who said it is? I've pointed out repeatedly throughout the thread that belief is its own thing. Atheists don't want to ban you from believing in what you want to believe, nor do they want to convert you.
Even if it is not real (I'm not saying it isn't)
You can only believe in things that are lacking in evidence. In the case of a non-falsifiable deity, there can never be evidence, so there's only belief.
why put your trust in no one superior?
Trust is earned.
What do you have to loose?
That seems like a terrible reason to stake your standard to the mast of a particular deity.

That aside, why don't you believe in Allah, Yahweh, Shiva, Guru Granth Sahib, Xenu, Rael, Odin, Satan, Ra, Raiden, Zeus, Jupiter, Glorificus or any other deity? What do you have to lose?
 
Actually, I have a question for all of you Atheists. What is so bad in believing something?
That depends on the "something". I believe e.g. that the god from the Old Testament does not exist. And you're right, that doesn't seem to be bad.
 
@EF12345678, I was, and am still, unaware that the Bible has been credited with predicting the invention of planes. How long ago was it recognized that the Bible foretold human flight? Before or after the invention of planes? In other words, were the Biblical words unambiguous enough to be interpreted as foretelling flight, or was that meaning retrofitted to the Biblical words with the advantage of hindsight.

Its taken from a novel written in 2012, as a result a large amount of 'hindsight' is used to interpret these supposed connections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Harbinger_(novel)
 
I would be lying if I said I didn't have a problem with people believing whatever they want - I do. While I appreciate that people ought to be allowed to believe whatever they want, it is of utmost importance to stress that believing whatever you want is a bad idea, especially if what you believe happens to be contrary to established fact.
 
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