Do you believe in God?

[Dotini]

If a supreme being exists, and if he has interacted with people (as pretty much all religions seem to state at some point or other) then somewhere out there are people who have interacted with God.

For those of us who haven't interacted with God, accurate descriptions of those experiences would be very enlightening. They might even lead to other people being able to interact or detect God in some manner, thus providing objective evidence for his existence.

On the other hand, as long as all the religionists keep their cards close to their chest there's no chance anyone will ever understand what is really happening in these holy experiences.
--------
The unexplained experiences thread is far more enlightening in that sense that I've ever seen this thread be.

I nominate Imari for most improved questions and observations. Above is just a sample.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I'm trying to understand your reasoning. Don't get all defensive before we've even started conversing.

Either your statement that "everyone has a boss" is universally true, in which case God has a boss as well.
Or it's not universally true, in which case it's relevant to ask in which cases is it not true and why.

What is unique about God that makes Him the endpoint? Why does it not end at Man, or squirrels, or jellyfish?

The other question that springs to mind with regard to the idea of a hierarchy:
If God is at the top, where do we fit in? Are we one step down from Him, or are there other beings in between?

Lots of juicy questions, wide open for answers.

 

[dddsprayshop]

Actually, I have a question for all of you Atheists. What is so bad in believing something? Even if it is not real (I'm not saying it isn't) why put your trust in no one superior? What do you have to loose? (And don't say your mind)

I believe a lot and i don't believe a lot.
Believe in a "god" has it's benefits.
But i can't believe in something that is never seen, and trust my life with it.
I my expierence, all that is happened to me, i saved myself, i had to take action myself.
The people i depended on, proved i could not depend on them.
A "god" did not appeared or spoke to me to take action, my brain/self did that.

So i can't believe, not that i don't want, i just can't, it is impossible to me.
I tried when i was young, but my body and mind reacted with "what am i doing? Do it yourself, don't depend on something invisible."

But the description is of modern planes, not being a bird.

Nice description, would be evidence if the planes did it all by them self.
My evidence( that is not evidence but just another scenario to explain your proof):
Extreme Humans read your passage, think and made a connection to modern plains.
They made a plan for revenge on christians and USA:
The plan was "If we use plains for our revenge,
we hit america and if we get lucky, christians will make a connection with their bible and all of them get scared"

Humans are the key here, not enormous monsters that can roar and fly by them self.
Humans that want revenge and use those "enourmous monsters that can roar and fly".
And sorry to say, those humans that flyed the planes are fooled that they acted on belief.
Another reason i can't belief in religion, using it for bad instead of good.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Actually, I have a question for all of you Atheists. What is so bad in believing something? Even if it is not real (I'm not saying it isn't) why put your trust in no one superior? What do you have to loose? (And don't say your mind)

No offense, but I just find it crazy that someone would believe in a higher power. That an invisible man in the sky (and that is a very large sky) created everything in nature that we see and touch. I just find it absolutely insane. If someone identical to Jesus popped up today spewing the same nonsense he supposedly did back in the day, he would be in a straight jacket locked up in a mental home. For myself, I just can't look up at the night sky and stare into the vast distance that is the beauty of space and think to myself that my life choices are being played out by some all powerful being. Which leads me to the next point, why put my trust in nobody? Who says we trust nobody? I for one trust myself. All my choices in life were MY choices, nobody elses.

 

[GBO Possum]

Actually, I have a question for all of you Atheists. What is so bad in believing something? Even if it is not real (I'm not saying it isn't) why put your trust in no one superior? What do you have to loose? (And don't say your mind)

That's a really good question. What is so bad in believing something?

The issue with belief is that it holds back knowledge. Belief requires no evidence and is resistant to change.

Here is an example.

Some people believe that the Bible is God's word, such as:-

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." -Psalms 104:5
​

In the 17th century, Galileo was put on trial in Rome for stating that the Earth moves around the Sun, contrary to the above word of God.

"The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor immovable, but moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both psychologically and theologically false, and at the least an error of faith."

Formal Church declaration in its indictment of Galileo​

During the trial, Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church and the foremost Vatican theologian of the seventeeth century said:-

"But to affirm that the Sun is really fixed in the center of the heavens and that the Earth revolves very swiftly around the Sun is a dangerous thing, not only irritating the theologians and philosophers, but injuring our holy faith and making the sacred scriptures false."​

and

"Freedom of belief is pernicious. It is nothing but the freedom to be wrong."​

and

"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin."​

Threatened with extreme torture, Galileo recanted his scientific views.

It wasn't until 1832 that Galileo's work was removed from the list of banned books that Catholics were forbidden to read. 200 years after the trial... and well after Sir Isaac Newton established the truth of the theory.

In discussing science, the very word "doctrine" (as used in the indictment above), has no place. Science relies on the absence of doctrine and presence of open-mindedness.

When good old Cardinal Bellarmine said

"But to affirm that the Sun is really fixed in the center of the heavens and that the Earth revolves very swiftly around the Sun is a dangerous thing, not only irritating the theologians and philosophers, but injuring our holy faith and making the sacred scriptures false.",​

he was recognizing that that just one disagreement between reality and the "sacred scriptures" would render these scriptures false. It was no minor detail that was at stake here, it was the entire house of cards which was about to fall down if Galileo's words could not be stopped.

Of course, there are times that we suspend disbelief, and for good reasons such as entertainment. Many movies require us to temporarily "believe" all sorts of things. Think of James Bond or Spiderman. However, most of us regard these as benign. Few of us would try to force the continued belief in Spiderman's amazing capabilities using force and the threat of torture.

 

[dylansan]

Am I the only one who can't just choose to believe something? If I told myself right now that I believed God existed it would be completely dishonest and I would know it.

 

[GBO Possum]

Am I the only one who can't just choose to believe something? If I told myself right now that I believed God existed it would be completely dishonest and I would know it.

For many people, it is difficult to NOT believe stuff.

At an early age, kids have the concept of "belief being good" rammed into their skulls by their parents (and others) before they are taught that "thinking is good" and "evidence is good". That opens the door to shoving Jesus, or Allah, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster into the same skull. They have no defenses against these fanciful stories, just as their parents had no defenses and so on.

If you are in a state which may be described as "believing in nothing", then you are fortunate. It took me a long time to get to that state. Now I've arrived at last, it is a joyful state of freedom and appreciation!

 

[CodeRedR51]

If you are in a state which may be described as "believing in nothing", then you are fortunate. It took me a long time to get to that state. Now I've arrived at last, it is a joyful state of freedom and appreciation!

Growing up in a Catholic family and baptized as such, my brother and I did go to church as kids. But when I was around 10 or so we stopped going, not sure why, and slowly over the years I have come to the realization that the whole thing is silly nonsense. My mom still brings up the "you were baptized Catholic" thing every once in a while and wants an explanation as to why we are non believers. My last response was that we're old enough now to see through the BS. She didn't have an answer to that. She obviously knows my brother and I no longer believe, and on a day to day basis she doesn't really care I don't think. And yes, appreciating the world/universe for what it really is, is so much more enlightening than "god did it".

 

[Imari]

For many people, it is difficult to NOT believe stuff.

At an early age, kids have the concept of "belief being good" rammed into their skulls by their parents (and others) before they are taught that "thinking is good" and "evidence is good". That opens the door to shoving Jesus, or Allah, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster into the same skull. They have no defenses against these fanciful stories, just as their parents had no defenses and so on.

If you are in a state which may be described as "believing in nothing", then you are fortunate. It took me a long time to get to that state. Now I've arrived at last, it is a joyful state of freedom and appreciation!

To be fair, it's not just that.

A lot of public schooling is dedicated to you believing what you're told by the teacher. Good teachers will make sure you understand why what they're telling you is true, but in big classes sometimes that's just not possible for every student. Sometimes it's just "what the teacher says is right and you need to just go with it".

It's an unfortunate side effect of what is the standard education system these days. For a lot of kids it's just a bunch of knowledge that they don't really understand that they're forced to accept as true, because no one had the time to walk them through it at their own pace.

It's basically training kids in how to believe. They believe what the teacher is telling them because they're an authority figure, not because they understand how and why that knowledge was attained. It's not so strange that children raised in this way are susceptible to that same tactic employed to get them to believe things other than the basic knowledge we teach in schools.

While I agree that it's mostly very easy to get children to believe pretty much anything you want, it's not entirely up to the parents as to how their child learns to critically accept information.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Am I the only one who can't just choose to believe something? If I told myself right now that I believed God existed it would be completely dishonest and I would know it.

Who's saying you should just choose to believe something?

Assuming that @GBO Possum is not correct, and all believers are not brainwashed from an early age (which is obviously not true in all cases), at some point you may or may not arrive at a natural acceptance that there could be something else at work behind the workings of the Universe. It really depends on what you expect God to be though. If you need answers and you turn to religious scripture, you may well end up quoting the bible in defense of your new found belief system, and you can see from this thread how well that goes.

The reason why I arrived at what seems to be a more accepting stance than I used to have is simply because of sequence of events that happened to me a couple of years back - I don't believe at all in the bible, or any religious text, the closest thing I have to a belief in a higher power is the Karmic aspect of life... when I'm in deep s***, I sometimes find my internal monologue saying "please help" - who the hell am I talking to? Who knows, maybe sitting through a Christmas service at Church one every couple of years did brainwash me.

For me, the ease with which someone will allow something such as belief to fill a blank space in their head, is a bit like being gay... you don't choose it, you just are that way, and all things being equal, you will just end up knowing that it is the case. Of course, in life all things aren't equal and inevitably, if you have found this point of acceptance, you will probably latch on to (or be susceptible to) the actions and opinions of others around you - hence the geographic correlation of religions.

Just my two cents.

p.s., not Gay or Christian...

 

[EF12345678]

I find all of this a colossal waste of time.

As do I. I'm throwing in the towel on this one. I still stand behind what I said; however, I do not want to continue this because, as shown here many times, you cannot convince anyone of anything on the internet (and I can't filter through my alerts ).

 

[Famine]

I still stand behind what I said; however, I do not want to continue this because, as shown here many times, you cannot convince anyone of anything on the internet

Irony.

It's worth noting that the post you quoted was made before you even made your first post here. You could have saved everyone's time replying to you...

 

[EF12345678]

Irony.

It's worth noting that the post you quoted was made before you even made your first post here. You could have saved everyone's time replying to you...

Well, I thought I'd throw in my two cents, and some info, but I realized it takes all the fun out of GTPlanet when I spend 20 minutes reading and replying to people who wont change their mind, ever.

 

[Famine]

Well, I thought I'd throw in my two cents, and some info, but I realized it takes all the fun out of GTPlanet when I spend 20 minutes reading and replying to people who wont change their mind, ever.

And yet you're ducking out of a load of perfectly valid questions that make you look like the kind of person to never change your mind. Ever.

Stick around, answer some - or try. You might find fun in learning new things.

 

[GTP_Ingram]

Well, I thought I'd throw in my two cents, and some info, but I realized it takes all the fun out of GTPlanet when I spend 20 minutes reading and replying to people who wont change their mind, ever.

I'm sure that many of the people you are aiming this comment at would be very open to changing their minds if you - or anyone else who share similar opinions - would actually provide any sort of conclusive, reliable evidence to the questions that repeatedly go unanswered.

 

[EF12345678]

Stick around, answer some - or try. You might find fun in learning new things.

Ha ha. That's very intriguing, but I've watched this thread for a while now. I know how drawn out the discussions can become.

I'm sure that many of the people you are aiming this comment at would be very open to changing their minds if you - or anyone else who share similar opinions - would actually provide any sort of conclusive, reliable evidence to the questions that repeatedly go unanswered.

Now I must go quote hunting, thanks.

You can only believe in things that are lacking in evidence. In the case of a non-falsifiable deity, there can never be evidence, so there's only belief.

And that is called faith. That is why I cannot answer certain questions.

PS: This post got messed up a little with the formatting, so I have no idea how it will look.

 

[Scaff]

As do I. I'm throwing in the towel on this one. I still stand behind what I said; however, I do not want to continue this because, as shown here many times, you cannot convince anyone of anything on the internet (and I can't filter through my alerts ).

Your the one getting angry here.

Everyone else is simply raising valid points, asking or answering questions.

It does beg the question why did you post what you did if you didn't expect comment and discussion?

 

[Famine]

And that is called faith. That is why I cannot answer certain questions.

Then why do you ask questions about faith to people who have none?

Incidentally, does this mean you're participating or leaving? If you're participating, there's some more points in this post that you should address rather than leaving it just the one above.

 

[EF12345678]

Your the one getting angry here.

I was stating my observation.

Everyone else is simply raising valid points, asking or answering questions.

Which I did read all of them, I just didn't respond. Go on.

It does beg the question why did you post what you did if you didn't expect comment and discussion?

Well, I thought I'd throw in my two cents, and some info, but I realized it takes all the fun out of GTPlanet when I spend 20 minutes reading and replying to people who wont change their mind, ever.

Incidentally, does this mean you're participating or leaving? If you're participating, there's some more points in this post that you should address rather than leaving it just the one above.

I might address the posts before this, but after that, I don't think so.

 

[Imari]

Well, I thought I'd throw in my two cents, and some info, but I realized it takes all the fun out of GTPlanet when I spend 20 minutes reading and replying to people who wont change their mind, ever.

So don't reply to them. Reply to the rest of us.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Well, I thought I'd throw in my two cents, and some info, but I realized it takes all the fun out of GTPlanet when I spend 20 minutes reading and replying to people who wont change their mind, ever.

If you could avoid spewing bible verses in the status updates too, that would be great.

 

[Famine]

Thing is, you're characterising everyone who hasn't come out in complete support of you as "people who won't change their mind ever". The fact that you feel you have to post something, ignore all the questions it raises and say "I stand by what I said" says you won't change your mind.

It's not a particularly fair characterisation either. Science is about asking questions and, often, being wrong and changing your mind. Ask any atheist here what it would take to make them accept God and you'll get the same answer - evidence. Ask any believer what it would take to make them reject God and you'll get the same answer - nothing will make them reject God. Now who is it that won't change their minds, ever?

 

[EF12345678]

If you could avoid spewing bible verses in the status updates too, that would be great.

 

[Scaff]

I was stating my observation.

I know, but you seem to be getting very irate.

Which I did read all of them, I just didn't respond. Go on.

Go on what?

And how did you know that they won't change their minds? Most people here will happliy change their minds if you can provide the evidence.

 

[EF12345678]

Thing is, you're characterizing (did I just correct Famine's spelling? ) everyone who hasn't come out in complete support of you as "people who won't change their mind ever". The fact that you feel you have to post something, ignore all the questions it raises and say "I stand by what I said" says you won't change your mind.

Standing firmly by your beliefs is one thing, changing them is something totally different.

I know, but you seem to be getting very irate.

This goes for Scaff and Famine. (The answer)

I'm ignoring the questions because I'm a kid, I like my free time, I don't want to answer questions all day long (I have tests for that). Plain and simple.

 

[Scaff]

@EF12345678 No you didn't correct Famine's spelling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_spelling

 

[Jet Badger]

I'm ignoring the questions because I'm a kid, I like my free time, I don't want to answer questions all day long (I have tests for that). Plain and simple.

The downside of not being told to "go play in the sandbox with other kids" by older people on an internet forum is that you're expected to participate in a discussion that you jump by yourself in just as much as any other person. If people have questions for you on your posts, it is polite to answer them.

 

[Famine]

Standing firmly by your beliefs is one thing, changing them is something totally different.

So, as I asked, you will not change your mind, ever? For any amount of evidence?

And yet you're characterising other people as "people who won't change their mind ever" when their opinions are evidence-based and evidence-led and thus change as new evidence arises? Doesn't seem like a sound place from which to make that accusation.


Also no, you didn't. You Americanised my spelling, for some reason. Probably the same reason that compelled you to post a screengrab of Facebook... If that's the level you're going to try to discuss at, you're better off discussing something else, somewhere else.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

All the evidence is there.

Oh no. Not the mis-use of the E word again.

If you could avoid spewing bible verses in the status updates too, that would be great.

Is this where I get to tell you what part of your contributions here I would prefer to cease?

I don't share EF's beliefs, at all, but he is completely within his rights on this forum to post what he does in the status updates.

 

[EF12345678]

If people have questions for you on your posts, it is polite to answer them.

I might address the posts before this, but after that, I don't think so.

-----------------

I don't share EF's beliefs, at all, but he is completely within his rights on this forum to post what he does in the status updates.

Thanks. Do you know how many people have accused me of AUP violations for the silliest things?

So, as I asked, you will not change your mind, ever? For any amount of evidence?
And yet you're characterising other people as "people who won't change their mind ever" when their opinions are evidence-based and evidence-led and thus change as new evidence arises? Doesn't seem like a sound place from which to make that accusation.

As of now, no. I don't think I thought that all the way through. I should be more careful when I reply, sorry.

Also no, you didn't. You Americanised my spelling, for some reason.

Yeah, it popped up as a misspelled word. Did the same thing for "Americanised".

 

[GBO Possum]

Well, I thought I'd throw in my two cents, and some info, but I realized it takes all the fun out of GTPlanet when I spend 20 minutes reading and replying to people who wont change their mind, ever.

I'm totally ready to change my mind about the existence of God.

For example, if God would depart from his prior practice of only communicating with individuals in private and simultaneously address multitudes of people with unambiguous communication, that'd have my undivided attention!

If there was evidence that prayer is more effective than wishful thinking, likewise.

Since all the original books of the Bible have been lost, how about God providing a corrective update, removing ambiguities?

Any of these would drastically change my mind! And that's just a few examples. I'm ready for my open mind to be filled with whatever you want ant, so long as its supported by evidence.

In return, EF, would you answer me this about the Bible? Is it God's infallible word? Are there any words in the Bible which are NOT God's infallible word? If "yes" then how can we seperate the words of God from the rest? I'm assuming you would know the answer to these questions.