Do you believe in God?
- Thread starter Patrik
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- GTAS_PEETHAM
Please define "day" and how it's measured. Also, pretty weak if it took him 6 days, I mean he's almighty and all.
Did I mention He is all Powerfull?
He also said, "My ways are not yours, and My thoughts are higer than yours.
We could never understand His ways, no matter how many mind games we start playing.
When He first said let there be light, that could have been any light He commanded, even perhaps His own light" scripture says God is Spirit and Light". Who knows, we were not there...
EDIT: First quote wasn't intentional, removed.
"Yom" means day in Hebrew. Everytime the scriptures mention morning, day, night. I think he wanted to make it clear that it was a normal day, hence including those in there.
When Joshua walked around the walls of Jericho http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/06/the-walls-of-jericho.aspx
did he do so for 7 days, or 7 million days?
Days are never questioned anywhere else in the bible, except in Genesis.
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Scaff
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Citation required (and not the Bible - it most certainly doesn't meet the standard).
How handy, the men who created a cult that allowed them to exercise control and power over others included a clause that demands that you don't question it.
Only those who wish to remain ignorant would so blindly accept such a demand.
Because some are convinced that should then not accept that which can't be proven (and flies in the face of all evidence) then God will let them be used as BBQ.
- 13,913
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- Neomone
I love it when these people turn up. So your argument is "yeah, my God is magic. So what"?
If you can't see any problem with that, then no amount of anyone else saying anything will convince you otherwise. All the information you need to start opening your mind and appreciating God on a more realistic level is right in front of you, but you'd rather believe in the magical Sky Daddy.
I know plenty of Christians who appreciate God for what he is, but still manage to accept that the Bible is a collection of stories designed to control behaviour in a time when most people were pretty retarded by modern standards. Undernourished, poorly educated, oppressed, it was bad times and those people just needed a set of rules they could follow to get them through the day.
Thankfully, God also gave humans brains that when looked after are marvellous things for appreciating all the wonderful stuff he did with the universe, if you're inclined to believe in God. But that means not switching it off and believing every word of what is basically a children's book.
If you must believe in God, at least appreciate that everything you see is His work. And your eyes (and other senses) are more reliable witnesses than a bunch brain damaged underfed halfwits from 2000 years ago.
If it appears that the universe is billions of years old, then maybe God created it billions of years ago. The evidence for that is a lot more convincing than some dodgy math based on one old book.
It can be refuted, at the same level of logic as the Matrix. If all perception is created, then it can be created in any state that the creator wishes. Look up LastTuesdayism. This is what the more robust forms of the Young Earth movement do, but cast in an absurdist form that makes it much more obvious.
Of course, this isn't a particularly productive line of thought, because it's not testable. There's then no reason to believe that the universe was created at any specific moment over another. It could be last Tuesday or 6000 years ago or 30 seconds ago. All your memories of making that post could be complete fabrications that God gave you when he created the universe just before I started writing this.
As such, people tend to accept that what we see is what we get, and that the laws of the universe haven't changed beyond such ways that we can see and identify (which may not be the only ways that they have changed), and that the natural clocks we rely on like radioactive decay and the speed of light are relatively reliable.
Currently, I'm not aware of any decent, testable hypotheses that cast major doubt on the general age of the earth. They can fiddle around with the accuracy, but it's in the right ballpark as far as we know.
Honestly, most Christians don't even get as far as making the Young Earther jump, where the theory is unscientific but at least logically sound. They just stop at "but the Bible says so". To people like me who make their living thinking for themselves, I can't imagine anything more horrible than giving up my ability to question stuff that seems poorly explained.
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- GTAS_PEETHAM
This is a serious logical fallacy. We are talking about creating light before creating sources of light and conditions for light to exist.
We all have a gift called faith. Not everyone is forced to use it though...
The city of Jericho was in ruins before the time of Joshua. Several excavations have proven this. It didn't happen.
Always two sides to a story.
Again, fact and calculations are two very different meanings. The most intellegent minds calculate that everything we see today came from nothing. There are many that still can't see how that is fact. I bacame one of those many...
It's amazing how only one side can be labelled, "ignorant and blind", yet not the other side.
When the theory of where the small big bang came from is resolved, then a new can of worms can be opened up.
I assure you, what you think of me is not what I believe.
Magic is for dynamo and Troy, not God.
When they can calm the storm or heal a blind man, and a lame man, then you let me know.
Scientists believe in billions, and scientists believe in thousands. Both have evidences using the same material.
Two sides to a story. One day soon, once side will be seen right. Everyone else is free to choose which ever side, or not.
DCP said
I cleaned my home of worldy celebs, Beyoncé, Gaga, Katy Perry etc, horror movies, sex, violence etc. Ask a normal person to do that, they will probably swear you, because they live for these things without even knowing it.
Click to expand...
I'm actually quite aware of the fact that sex is one of the things I live for. And I'm completely okay with that. Between consenting adults who respect each other, sex is wonderful. Why do you have a problem with it?
Ever heard of sexually transmitted diseases. Sex can be wonderfull with your ONE wife...
DCP said
So it's easy to see why other gods don't exist to me.
Click to expand...
It's easy to see why no gods exist to me. Tends to happen when you subject all gods to the same level of skepticism, rather than giving one of the myriad a free pass around.
Do all of those gods tell you how it began, why you sin, why you suffer, why you die, and most importantly, how you can be saved from eternal death? Do these gods passover centuries of history, for the next generation to continue, or do they just have one man come up and start a religion?
Through Jesus, the church was born, yet the entire bible, even from the old testament mentions Yeshua. Isaiah 53, spoke of Jesus, even 700 years before Christ. It is in great detail. Today my heart was emotional, because I could relate to how badly an innocent man was beaten. The bible says He couldn't even be recognised. He was innocent. I'm sure you would weep if an innocent person dear to your heart was excecuted. This is the type of love people see right through today.
DCP said
You know buddy, all the answers are in the bible. God made everything good, perfect in the beginning. God instructed them not to eat of the fruit of good and evil. How can you blame God for mans actions?
If you say, why put that tree there, then what choice does man have. God has then just created humans to forcefully serve and obey Him. No, this Is not the God we serve. He is Holy and just. He has given all of us a choice. Homeless children, is not Gods fault. It's selfish adults. Famine is not Gods fault. It's selfish human beings.
Click to expand...
So you don't believe that god is omniscient then?
Yes I do
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- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Lightning rods, bionic eyes and polio vaccines.
They're called numbers.
It's funny - reading this thread, you seem to be the only person convinced that there is an inevitable war between science and religion on the way, and that the only possible outcomes are the Triumph of Religion Over Science or the Death of Religion. Everyone else has acknowledged that you are free to worship when, where and how you please, but has asked that you at least recognise that they are as equally free to use their judgement on the matter, and to respect the idea that although they think differently to you, they're not automatically wrong. It's a courtesy that you haven't extended to anyone thus far, and it's the kind if attitude that gives religious people a bad name.
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- Neomone
No, they don't.
I've seen the evidence for billions. Show me the evidence for thousands. Or the logic behind using the same evidence to arrive at the conclusion that the earth is thousands of years old, if that's what you're doing.
If you pull out bible quotations I reserve the right to laugh in your face.
Scaff
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- ScaffUK
When one side willingly ignores evidence and/or manipulates or flat out lies about it, then yes I will label it as ignorant.
This pretty much sums up the difference in the approach:
Now stop treating them as if they deal equally with evidence and the need to provide it in a repeatable, peer reviewed manner, because they don't.
What?
Scientific progress seems to have escaped you in a number of ways.
A difference does exist, quite a big one. Once again its down to those we provide peer reviewed evidence to support the theory that the earth is billions of years old (of which thousands exist) and those who simply claim its thousands of years old (of which not one piece of true peer reviewed evidence exists).
I mean are you even aware of how new the entire 'young earth' theory is and just how fringe it is even within Christians? Even medieval religious scholars didn't take the six days to be literal days, which is kind of a clue as to have far 'back' YEC's have gone.
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- GTAS_PEETHAM
@prisonermonkeys
I've never ever said there was a war between the two.
I understand that the bible is offensive to people, but I can't change that. I'm no better than anyone else here, but there is two sides to the story. Somebody somewhere needs to hear it, while others don't. They can decide for themselves.
[USER=129096]@Imari
Try google and youtube. I know the schools were not allowed to teach these things, but now they are. People can then choose, not just be indoctrinated from one side. I always wonder what would happen if the scientists say, "there is a very strong reason to believe that there now is a GOD.
@Scaff
Age of the world doesn't save people, so its not a big deal at all for Christians.
I used to be that christian when I said to myself, "as long as I accept Christ, I'm happy" until I realised how selfish that was.[/USER]
I've never ever said there was a war between the two.
I understand that the bible is offensive to people, but I can't change that. I'm no better than anyone else here, but there is two sides to the story. Somebody somewhere needs to hear it, while others don't. They can decide for themselves.
[USER=129096]@Imari
Try google and youtube. I know the schools were not allowed to teach these things, but now they are. People can then choose, not just be indoctrinated from one side. I always wonder what would happen if the scientists say, "there is a very strong reason to believe that there now is a GOD.
@Scaff
Age of the world doesn't save people, so its not a big deal at all for Christians.
I used to be that christian when I said to myself, "as long as I accept Christ, I'm happy" until I realised how selfish that was.[/USER]
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- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Nobody here has said that.
Seriously. Nobody here has said that. So now you've completely destroyed whatever credibility you might have had, all the while proclaiming something about there being two sides to every story, which I am not entirely sure that you understand yourself.
And I always wonder what would happen if the Christians say "there is a very strong reason to believe that science and religion are not mutually exclusive concepts".
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- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
Having read through the multiple threads this seems to span across, @DCP with your ignorance and arrogance you're putting together more evidence of why we shouldn't believe in god.
I've had my doubts about the whole thing, but never really dismissed the idea in general, but the arguments opposing @DCP are very compelling and make a whole lot of sense.
It actually all happened around the time my grandma died that my faith starting to be rattled. She went to church every day, she was the head of the church's rosary sessions, she always made it a point to help others and stood up for those less fortunate. She died of cancer at 55, horribly, crying for help. That was back in 2000, so I was 12. It hit really hard, especially because she raised me from birth until I was about 5-6, and I don't think I've went back to church since than.
I've had my doubts about the whole thing, but never really dismissed the idea in general, but the arguments opposing @DCP are very compelling and make a whole lot of sense.
It actually all happened around the time my grandma died that my faith starting to be rattled. She went to church every day, she was the head of the church's rosary sessions, she always made it a point to help others and stood up for those less fortunate. She died of cancer at 55, horribly, crying for help. That was back in 2000, so I was 12. It hit really hard, especially because she raised me from birth until I was about 5-6, and I don't think I've went back to church since than.
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- huskeR_32
Ever heard of sexually transmitted diseases. Sex can be wonderfull with your ONE wife...
That's it? That's your whole problem with sex, is STDs?
Also, who says I'm not married? Or maybe unmarried, but in a loving monogamous relationship?
I suspected so. Now, let's revisit the bit I bolded up there. If god is omniscient, then he knew when he put the tree of life where he put it, that Adam and Eve would sin. He knew it without a shadow of a doubt. So it follows that when he put it there, he was taking away their free will. God's actions, and his/hers alone, caused sin to enter this world.
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- Lma_robot
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It hit me really hard as a kid, and probably had a lot to do with what I got into. As an adult, I learned to deal with it, and accept that loss happens. While it was and still is very sad, its not weighing me down anymore. I believe my life would have been very different had she still been alive, she would certainly straighten me out in a heartbeat
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- Bonn
- GTAce
Well, death is a part of life, it's just tragic when it happens so gruesome.It hit me really hard as a kid, and probably had a lot to do with what I got into. As an adult, I learned to deal with it, and accept that loss happens. While it was and still is very sad, its not weighing me down anymore. I believe my life would have been very different had she still been alive, she would certainly straighten me out in a heartbeat
But, and I think it's much more beautiful than some religious explanation, we should never forget that no one ever dies really. We just transform into our basic molecules and other things, which in the end travel around and who knows, might even form, or help to form, a different life somewhere else.
Feels, brought to you by science!
- 7,625
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
No scientist would do that.
What a scientist would do is present the evidence for gods, that other scientists could verify. When verified, then people would accept that gods existed. Well, some people. A lot of the religious could have problems with that. It depends on which god and what the evidence is. If they decide they don't like one or the other, they will keep their faith and ignore reality.
Scaff
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As long as creationism is taught as part of religious studies I have no issue, however when people want it taught as science then I have a very big issue.
How is the study of peer reviewed, testable, falsifiable evidence 'indoctrination'?
You have no idea at all how science works do you? Belief doesn't enter into it.
Please tell me how you think science functions.
And once again rather than answer the questions you simply change the subject and go into avoidance mode. A rather common theme among theists.
- 13,913
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Nope.
You read it somewhere or you wouldn't have said it. You find me the link, and then I know that we're both reading the same thing. Otherwise I could spend hours of my time and not get anywhere chasing down some phantom that you don't agree is what you were really talking about.
I don't know where you're from, but where I'm from the schools teach subjects. That means in science class they teach science, not religion. If you go to a religious school, then perhaps they teach this stuff in religious class, I wouldn't know.
There was only one school in my town growing up, so it was secular so as to be as inclusive as possible.
No school should be teaching religion in science class, and I'm pretty sure most developed countries tend to try and avoid it. Young Earth creationism is not science, no matter how you try and dress it up.
Ignoring your odd choice of words, a lot of people would go and look at the evidence and say "wow, that's pretty amazing. Look, there's God."
It would be no different to them saying "there is a very strong evidence that there is a Higgs boson". Interesting news, doesn't really change a thing about daily life for most people.
Then again, what would you do if the scientists said "there is a very strong evidence that Zeus exists"? Wouldn't that kind of throw your whole belief system out the window?
I mean, for me as an atheist if any god or gods turns out to exist it doesn't really change anything. I live my life to the best of my ability attempting to be what I see as a good person. I believe that any rational god, if they exist, will respect that. If there's a god or gods that are going to punish me for being a good person, then to be perfectly frank they can go and push it sideways up their tailpipe. I'll give them the finger, because I believe being a good person trumps following orders.
P.S. Considering how devout you seem to be, it seems odd that you're referring to a God. From the Christian perspective, there's generally only accepted to be one God with a capital G, even though he's tripartite. The others are at best gods with a lowercase g, and probably not even that.
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Ever heard of sexually transmitted diseases. Sex can be wonderfull with your ONE wife...
The propaganda and lack of sex education is strong with this one.
You've basically been fed a whole bunch of stereotypes about the "Godless" and seem to think they're absolute fact. This isn't far removed from someone being suspect of any black person because, you know, "those darkies gonna run of with the tele" to paraphrase the a Southern stereotype.
Seriously man, take the earplugs out and blinders off and you might, just maybe, learn somethings.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
I remember when I first started teaching, and I went around to all of the schools in my local area to try and get some casual work. I went to a Christian school; not because I am religious, but because I couldn't afford to leave any stone unturned. Now, I teach English and social science, but as part of the application process, the school wanted me to write an extensive essay on the role of creationism and the theory of evolution in schools - even though I don't teach in the relevant subject areas.
One of the units of work that I teach in Year 12 is a comparative study of Richard III and Looking for Richard. It's a pretty broad unit, and you can go in pretty much any direction that you want, but one of the strongest arguments in both texts is a criticism of the close relationship between church and state. I know of Christian schools that heavily discourage teachers from covering any of this content.
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- Hammerhead Garage
They are. And because a large part of the running of the school is done by the parents, they are essentially free to discriminate in who they employ because they can claim that the parents want their children taught by like-minded people.
Not that I am too bothered by it now - their educational outcomes are typically lower than elsewhere.
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
@DCP , further to your post in the Creation vs Evolution thread... can you provide a Bible reference (or other source) to demonstrate the description of planes in the Bible?
- 29,384
- Glasgow
- GTP_Mars
Luke 7:47?
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