Do you believe in God?

[Imari]

So by that logic no people are given credit, just the method. I am saying prayer and religion plays a part in the advancement of modern medicine.

But you're not backing this up with anything. You're just making the statement, and then showing a lot of Christians using the scientific method to do good.

I'm happy to concede that the church as a group has had a large impact through various means, particularly recently. They are one of the largest forces for providing healthcare to the underprivileged, as you have pointed out. If you want to argue that Christians are doing good things, I'm not at all going to argue with you.

But prayer and religious methods have done basically nothing as far as I can tell, and funding hospitals and clinics is by nobody's standard a "religious method". There's a reason the church builds hospitals to heal the sick instead of more churches: because hospitals work. If prayer was the most effective means to treat disease, why would they build hospitals?

The best you could say for religious methods would be that they've strongly encouraged caring for those less fortunate, but that's basically just the Golden Rule, which predates Christianity significantly. I'm not sure "don't be a dick" counts as religious method either.

Perhaps you can explain for me further what part prayer plays in the advancement of modern medicine. Or what part religion plays. Not the people, not the group, not the money that they have, the actual religion. As far as I'm aware, both can be removed entirely from modern medicine and it works just as well, with a few weird exceptions like some patients responding well to religiously themed placebos.

Anyone can use the skills and knowledge that science provides to heal, and that includes Christians. As far as I can tell, no one can use the skills and knowledge that Christianity provides to heal, and that includes Christians. They can use their money pretty effectively on science though, and they do so because it's a nice thing to do and they're generally nice people.

 

[wowbaggerBR]

Man, there are some VERY patient folks on GTP. I'm mean, VERY.

Bringing faith into a scientific discussion is just absurd.

 

[GBO Possum]

Hideous doesn't mean ugly. I just meant something that mankind has never seen.

Actually, unless you are redefining the English language, "Hideous" DOES mean "ugly"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hideous?s=t

Yet another example of you denying reality!

 

[Johnnypenso]

my post is not understood, so whatever.

I understood your point as well.

 

[TenEightyOne]

In Enoch, descriptions of the dwellings, vehicles and persons of the "fallen angels", as some would have them, are replete with constant usage of the terms fire and flame - cold fire and cold flame. Today we call this plasma.

Do you have a source? Of the 200-ish references to fire that I can find in Enoch they are almost all as expected, flamey, fiery and exactly as we'd think they'd be. The only reference that comes close is "The house was as hot as fire and as cold as ice"... which is hardly the same thing.

Even in Isaiah, air travel was predicted. That book is amazing. It contains for me, the greatest prophecy ever written.

Isaiah 60
Verse 8 “Who are these who fly like a cloud
And like the doves to their windows?

Read verses 9 and 4 also, to see what he is seeing, about people travelling from all places, also by land and sea.
Isaiah understands land and sea travel, hence he questions in verse 8.

Why wouldn't Isaiah understand land and sea travel? I also corrected "lattices" to "windows", I don't know where your translation came from but none of my sources had "lattices" in.

Given that Verse 9 mentions ships, and given that "fly" has a very nautical meaning (amongst a number of travel-related meanings unrelated to levitation of any kind) I find the meaning to quite literally be make sail or travel. The cloud analogy leans me towards the former. There are many more convincing explanations for that use of imagery than the description of aircraft. As for the doves flying to their windows... to me that describes a homecoming to the breasts of kings. We get to have a good suck on them in Verse 16.

Any more sources for planes in the bible?

EDIT: Going back to the Wycliffe translation; I really do believe that "fly" is from "flee", see the use of "fleen" before the words were separated.

7 Ech scheep of Cedar schal be gaderid to thee, the rammes of Nabaioth schulen mynystre to thee; thei schulen be offrid on myn acceptable auter, and Y schal glorifie the hous of my maieste.

8 Who ben these, that fleen as cloudis, and as culueris at her wyndowis?

9 Forsothe ilis abiden me, and the schippis of the see in the bigynnyng; that Y brynge thi sones fro fer, the siluer of hem, and the gold of hem is with hem, to the name of thi Lord God, and to the hooli of Israel; for he schal glorifie thee.

 

[Dotini]

Do you have a source?

Yes, I have numerous passages from the pseudepigrapha that I could type out and offer with as much of a sincerely scholarly and reasonable interpretation as I could muster. I would take the effort to do this if I thought we were going to have an open and respectful dialogue, with room for differing interpretations of weird, ambiguous literature written millennia in the past. Alas, I'm restrained by a great ennui, as I feel the effort would be entirely useless. It seems to me you've already declared your own interpretation to be the law, and anyway conveniently dismissed Enoch as non-canonical, which obviously it is. So in lieu of all that futility, I'll just reiterate my base position on God, the bible and religion. It's all lies. Some of them are beautiful, useful or necessary, and may be preferable to an ugly truth.

 

[squadops]

Some of you just can't let it go, as if I said religion created the cure, as if I said you can pray away the effects of a stroke, as if I said the bible has step by step instructions to remove brain tumors, as if I said prayer created beta blockers to appear on my grandfathers night stand to keep his heart beating as if...

Lets go back to the scene of the crime I've been crucified for

If you knew anything at all about science you'd know that that's exactly what it does. Modern medicine is one of the great triumphs of science. Using the scientific method we, as a species, have more than doubled our life expectancies as well as eradicating such diseases as smallpox. None of that was done with prayer or religion. It was done by thinking intelligently and logically and being objective and factual.

Lets get all technical and ridiculous about it; that that's exactly what it does? Last time I checked science was inanimate, how can it do anything at all? Now a triumph of observation, I can grasp that, in fact I agree. In my twisted ignorant mind I can honestly say one of the greatest achievements of man is modern medicine. I am grateful for, and celebratory of, all the people throughout history who have and do dedicate at least some portion of their life to benefit others. It is a testament to mankind's resolve, to not settle for without question, fates that can be avoided, or happy endings that cannot be prolonged. We not only have incredible drive towards self preservation, we have drive to better what we do have, not only selfishly for ourselves but also for others.

Using the scientific method we, as a species, have dedicated ourselves to a Nobel cause. A difficult cause where triumph is dependent on our ability to work, to explore all options, and most importantly to never give up. To turn our backs on deflating hardships and failures, to support each other in our quests insuring no stone is unturned and no man is left behind. So which is it, did science create modern medicine, or have we, as a species, more than doubled our life expectancies and eradicated many disease? The answer is unequivocally the latter.

None of that was done with prayer or religion?

I'd hardly say that was true, to get to where we are now it took society as a whole. You can't discount peoples motivation, inspiration, etc. I'm feeling lazy so I'll just leave a wiki(hate doing that) concerning The Catholic Church and healthcare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care

Nothing you guys have posted here can take credence away from what I said, have you discounted peoples motivation, inspiration, etc.? It only takes one motivated by a god, it only takes one inspired by a biblical story, it only takes a society where 1% of it's population associates with a god or a religion, we are around … 85% last time I checked.

I posted a link to most likely a poorly written wiki page, even so, there is plenty of truth in it. There really is no need to read it, however, it does show that people of faith spend and have spent personal time and effort in medicine, it does show that people of faith contribute with time, money, and compassion to further the cause through churches.

It is irrelevant if the same level of modern medicine we enjoy today is/was possible to achieve without prayer or religion, but it's only impossible not to recognize that prayer and religion have contributed to it.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Alas, I'm restrained by a great ennui, as I feel the effort would be entirely useless. It seems to me you've already declared your own interpretation to be the law, and anyway conveniently dismissed Enoch as non-canonical, which obviously it is.

Not in the least... there's a world of difference between @DCP saying that there are clear references to planes in the Bible and you saying that Enoch is "replete" with references to cold fire. Chapter/Verse will do for your claim, I simply couldn't find the two words in proximity to each other

I certainly don't claim to have a binding interpretation but I'll admit to being highly skeptical about @DCP's claim...

 

[Imari]

None of that was done with prayer or religion?

Don't ask us. You point out exactly what part of that was done with prayer and religion.

Lets get all technical and ridiculous about it; that that's exactly what it does? Last time I checked science was inanimate, how can it do anything at all? Now a triumph of observation, I can grasp that, in fact I agree. In my twisted ignorant mind I can honestly say one of the greatest achievements of man is modern medicine. I am grateful for, and celebratory of, all the people throughout history who have and do dedicate at least some portion of their life to benefit others. It is a testament to mankind's resolve, to not settle for without question, fates that can be avoided, or happy endings that cannot be prolonged. We not only have incredible drive towards self preservation, we have drive to better what we do have, not only selfishly for ourselves but also for others.

Using the scientific method we, as a species, have dedicated ourselves to a Nobel cause. A difficult cause where triumph is dependent on our ability to work, to explore all options, and most importantly to never give up. To turn our backs on deflating hardships and failures, to support each other in our quests insuring no stone is unturned and no man is left behind. So which is it, did science create modern medicine, or have we, as a species, more than doubled our life expectancies and eradicated many disease? The answer is unequivocally the latter.

I can point out exactly which parts were done using the scientific method and how. As can anyone with access to Wikipedia, or a medical textbook.

If you want, you can name a medical practise and I'll probably be able to tell you how it was developed using scientific techniques, although you could just go to Wikipedia and read yourself and save me from copy/pasting.

You're claiming you can do the same for the parts done with prayer and religion? Good. Do it. Give us an example.

Nothing you guys have posted here can take credence away from what I said, have you discounted peoples motivation, inspiration, etc.? It only takes one motivated by a god, it only takes one inspired by a biblical story, it only takes a society where 1% of it's population associates with a god or a religion, we are around … 85% last time I checked.

So you're claiming that because many of these people performing science were Christians, then Christianity should take credit for their work. Even though it's teachings had little to no impact on the results gained, or the techniques used, and in some cases may have actively impeded research?

Best of luck with that. If that's your view then I can't convince you otherwise.

...it's only impossible not to recognize that prayer and religion have contributed to it.

Tell you what. You give me one concrete example of prayer contributing to modern medicine. I'm curious now. You must have at least one or you wouldn't be so sure about this.

Depending on what it is I won't argue with you any more, because some answers will prove that your worldview is such that you cannot be debated with. For example, if you get onto the "but God created everything so all medical research is ultimately created by God" bus, then I cannot debate that.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

@squadops I'd reply but I'd only repeat what Imari said. Making claims will get you nowhere. Provide some evidence.

 

[FoRiZon]

I think its comes a bit of a causation and correlation here.

Prayer, as far as I know, even as prayer myself, strictly expects hope, not scientific advancement or anything.

 

[DCP]

Do you have a source? Of the 200-ish references to fire that I can find in Enoch they are almost all as expected, flamey, fiery and exactly as we'd think they'd be. The only reference that comes close is "The house was as hot as fire and as cold as ice"... which is hardly the same thing.






Why wouldn't Isaiah understand land and sea travel? I also corrected "lattices" to "windows", I don't know where your translation came from but none of my sources had "lattices" in.

Given that Verse 9 mentions ships, and given that "fly" has a very nautical meaning (amongst a number of travel-related meanings unrelated to levitation of any kind) I find the meaning to quite literally be make sail or travel. The cloud analogy leans me towards the former. There are many more convincing explanations for that use of imagery than the description of aircraft. As for the doves flying to their windows... to me that describes a homecoming to the breasts of kings. We get to have a good suck on them in Verse 16.

Any more sources for planes in the bible?

EDIT: Going back to the Wycliffe translation; I really do believe that "fly" is from "flee", see the use of "fleen" before the words were separated.

The Hebrew word is translated to crevices. "A narrow opening". Sorry, I don't even know what lattice means. Now can you see how cunning the devil is...

I mentioned that Isaiah understood then, what sea and land travel was.
In verse 8 he asked the question, "Who are these who fly like a cloud"? He questioned it.
If I'm being honest, it could mean the gathering of the Jews back to their land. I'm sure many jews from across the globe got back to their land by air as well. I'm sure there must've been passenger planes since 1948.

So Revelations and Ezekiel are your best bet of a natural interpretation of aviation.

Regarding the pillar of smoke and fire by night and day, while I believe that all things are possible with the Lord, the verse is pretty clear that they were lead by the Lord.
What is fascinating is that these jews had food, and their clothes and shoes never wore out for 40 years, and yet they were still ungrateful.

@GBO Possum
Read Isaiah 53, written 700 years before Christ.
There is only one Man that fits that description in history, in that great detail. Even the movie Passion of the Christ doesn't do justice for what was done to Him. Even Isaiah 50 and 52 tells us this. People till this day blame the jews and the romans, but the reality is, the whole world did this, whether they like it or not.

All I know is, He had no servants, yet they called Him Master. Had no degree, yet they called Him Teacher. Had no medicines, yet they called Him Healer. He had no army, yet kings feared Him. He won no military battles, yet He conquered the world. He committed no crime.. Yet they crucified Him. He was buried in a tomb, yet He lives today. Opening your heart to Him is your only proof.

 

[niky]

And here we find another discussion that is only tenuously related to the thread topic. I suggest continuing it in the "God" thread?

It is irrelevant if the same level of modern medicine we enjoy today is/was possible to achieve without prayer or religion, but it's only impossible not to recognize that prayer and religion have contributed to it.

To acknowledge that people can be motivated by religion to perform science is to acknowledge that people can be motivated by religion to do other things, as well. Like committing genocide, excommunicating scientists (and slowing scientific advancement), burning books and erasing evidence of competing religions/cultures, preserving books, killing people, saving people, etcetera.

-

And it discounts the fact that different people will be motivated by different things. Religion. Family. A sense of justice. A sense of commitment to a higher cause: God, Humanity, Truth, the Cosmos. You could say that there is a sense of spirituality or a belief/worship of the abstract in all of this, but then, can you claim that all these people worship the exact same physical-object/abstract-ideal/God/Person?

-

Obviously, no.

-

In the end, the debate in this thread, however, is not about religion. It is about whether a Creation myth, taken as verbatim fact by a small subset of fundamentalist believers, of a sect of the Judaic religion (well... it used to be... ), is a better explanation for the diversity of lifeforms on this planet than a Scientific Theory which simply explains the process whereby changes in a species can propagate over time.

It's interesting to note that the man who posited this theory didn't do it for religion. In fact, he came to reject the Bible, in the end, though he did not consider himself an Atheist.

-

Which is as it should be. The Bible is, after all, written by men. What makes them any more of an authority on God than us?

 

[squadops]

Of course, it suited me fine to stop after Scaff mentioned that however I find it odd you guys don't mind allowing cheep jabs to continue filtering in yet I'm expected to post in the god thread?

 

[Scaff]

So Revelations and Ezekiel are your best bet of a natural interpretation of aviation.

Only with a rather large dose of wish fulfillment.

Regarding the pillar of smoke and fire by night and day, while I believe that all things are possible with the Lord, the verse is pretty clear that they were lead by the Lord.
What is fascinating is that these jews had food, and their clothes and shoes never wore out for 40 years, and yet they were still ungrateful.

Have a guess how much evidence exists to support the 40 year journey of 1-2 million people from Egypt to Israel?

Read Isaiah 53, written 700 years before Christ.
There is only one Man that fits that description in history, in that great detail. Even the movie Passion of the Christ doesn't do justice for what was done to Him. Even Isaiah 50 and 52 tells us this.

Lets see who this sounds like shall we...

• Born of a virgin by immaculate conception
• Baptized in a river
• Was temped in the wilderness by the devil
• Cast out demons
• Cured the blind
• Taught of heaven and hell
• Was 'the word made flesh'

Not Jesus however, but Zoroaster the founder of the older religion Zoroastrianism and is claimed to have lived around 600 years before Jesus.

He's not alone in being a mythical figure that predates Jesus and yet shares many if not all the traits...

http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

.....so no he was not the only man that fits that description in history, and what's more he wasn't even close to being the first.

Religions borrow from each other and Judaism and Christianity has borrowed a lot (i.e. most of it) from older religions in the region.

People till this day blame the jews and the romans, but the reality is, the whole world did this, whether they like it or not.

Don't put your nonsense 'born with it' guilt on me. I had nothing to do with anyone being put to death under the Roman's at all.

All I know is, He had no servants, yet they called Him Master. Had no degree, yet they called Him Teacher. Had no medicines, yet they called Him Healer. He had no army, yet kings feared Him. He won no military battles, yet He conquered the world. He committed no crime.. Yet they crucified Him. He was buried in a tomb, yet He lives today. Opening your heart to Him is your only proof.

He was a story, borrowed from others, who borrowed it from others, who when you get back far enough made it up to explain why bad things happen to good people and to give those good people hope (at its best - at its worse it was a justification to kill each other).

 

[Scaff]

Of course, it suited me fine to stop after Scaff mentioned that however I find it odd you guys don't mind allowing cheep jabs to continue filtering in yet I'm expected to post in the god thread?

I don't believe that niky said that you alone had to continue in it the God thread, rather that everyone had to? As such I have now moved the bulk of the discussion to the right thread (the one its now in)

Oh and just because you don't see action taken doesn't mean it hasn't, as such please don't tell the staff what they are or are not doing.

 

[DCP]

="Scaff, post: 10606590, member: 15439"]Only with a rather large dose of wish fulfillment.



Have a guess how much evidence exists to support the 40 year journey of 1-2 million people from Egypt to Israel?

Not finding evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen, much like assuming there are more galaxies after the furthest thing man can see in space, even though they haven't seen it.

Lets see who this sounds like shall we...

• Born of a virgin by immaculate conception
• Baptized in a river
• Was temped in the wilderness by the devil
• Cast out demons
• Cured the blind
• Taught of heaven and hell
• Was 'the word made flesh'

Not Jesus however, but Zoroaster the founder of the older religion Zoroastrianism and is claimed to have lived around 600 years before Jesus.

He's not alone in being a mythical figure that predates Jesus and yet shares many if not all the traits...

http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

.....so no he was not the only man that fits that description in history, and what's more he wasn't even close to being the first.

Religions borrow from each other and Judaism and Christianity has borrowed a lot (i.e. most of it) from older religions in the region.

Really, and do you have witnesses of this? Do you have the dates? I can't see you realizing it "yet", but you are doing much of satans work here. You pick out what you need to, to deceive others. Your opinion is exactly that.
Isaiah, the prophet of God, is obviously speaking about Gods Son Yeshua (Jesus). Not your Roosters.
The father of lies has manifested himself in his evildoers, and for me, ultimately push those poor souls to commit suicide. No one can make excuses for them, or really know why they kill themselves.



Don't put you nonsense 'born with it' guilt on me. I had nothing to do with anyone being put to death under the Roman's at all.

Whether you believe in Him or not, mock and scorn at Him or not, despise and reject Him or not, you will have to face Him whether you like it or not, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it, no matter how far you try to hide.

He was a story, borrowed from others, who borrowed it from others, who when you get back far enough made it up to explain why bad things happen to good people and to give those good people hope (at its best - at its worse it was a justification to kill each other).[/QUOTE]

Here goes the killing story again.
150000 people die a day. Let me guess, it's the christians and their Living Gods fault right?
Like I say, your opinion doesn't change what is to happen. Standing up against the known universe, you are nothing, but to my Lord, you are everything.

Trying to tell you about the good news, is like trying to save a drowning animal, yet that animal keeps trying to bite the hands reaching out to it.

 

[Famine]

Who put the large body of water there for the animal to fall into at the moment it was born?

 

[DCP]

Who gave the animal the gift not to stumble before the body of water, even though He gave the animal a free choice to fall in the water, when he wanted to?

 

[Famine]

Ah, so you're not a believer in original sin then?

 

[Scaff]

Not finding evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen, much like assuming there are more galaxies after the furthest thing man can see in space, even though they haven't seen it.

Not even remotely close in terms of a comparison.

We have plenty of evidence to a scientific standard to make a hypothesis about the universe. We have no evidence at all to support a factual claim of 1 to 2 million people sodding off from Egypt (which would have been circa 20% of the population at that time), wandering around the desert for 40 years and then turning up and increasing the population of the region Israel is in by more than 20%

We are talking about event that would have left a massive trail of evidence behind, yet none exists, why is that?

Really, and do you have witnesses of this? Do you have the dates? I can't see you realizing it "yet", but you are doing much of satans work here. You pick out what you need to, to deceive others. Your opinion is exactly that.
Isaiah, the prophet of God, is obviously speaking about Gods Son Yeshua (Jesus). Not your Roosters.
The father of lies has manifested himself in his evildoers, and for me, ultimately push those poor souls to commit suicide. No one can make excuses for them, or really know why they kill themselves.

You do know that as much evidence exists to support these as does for Judaism and Christianity?

Why do you dismiss one and not the other?

Oh and why do you have an inability to understand the linear nature of time? Zoroastrianism (and a number of others as well) existed before the book of Isiah was written.

However the most important question I have to ask is why are you inferring that I'm going to kill myself (after all you have just said that I am doing Satan's work and as such I would be one of those who "The father of lies has manifested himself in").

Whether you believe in Him or not, mock and scorn at Him or not, despise and reject Him or not, you will have to face Him whether you like it or not, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it, no matter how far you try to hide.

Citation required.

Here goes the killing story again.
150000 people die a day. Let me guess, it's the christians and their Living Gods fault right?
Like I say, your opinion doesn't change what is to happen. Standing up against the known universe, you are nothing, but to my Lord, you are everything.

So you ingore the majority of what I said and......

Trying to tell you about the good news, is like trying to save a drowning animal, yet that animal keeps trying to bite the hands reaching out to it.

....simply insult me instead.

All I'm doing is asking you perfectly reasonable questions based on the claims you are making, it seems that in your frustration you are resorting to insults rather than answers. Doesn't that go against the teachings of your saviour?

Oh and why have you not answered the questions in the Creation/Evolution thread? Please address them as soon as possible.

 

[TenEightyOne]

And here we find another discussion that is only tenuously related to the thread topic. I suggest continuing it in the "God" thread?

I thought this was the God thread...although to be honest trying to pin @DCP down with sources or reasoning is giving me thread blindness in every place where it happens. Apologies

EDIT: Thanks @Scaff, I understand now

So Revelations and Ezekiel are your best bet of a natural interpretation of aviation.

Which is like saying "go Google it". Not how it works. Name some verses.

But lattices... I'll give you that, the word "אֲרֻבֹּתֵיהֶם" means (their, fem) chimney, window or lattice (specifically the lattice covering a chimney). Interestingly it can also be used for floodgate.

 

[Scaff]

I thought this was the God thread.

Niky's post was moved from another thread by me, as the conversation was better suited here than in the Creation vs Evolution thread.

 

[Imari]

You pick out what you need to, to deceive others.

The irony is palpable.

 

[jacnob]

Can I reset my vote in the poll? I... honestly I'm struggling to believe anymore. There's so much evidence to the contrary, and so little in favor. I've never seen so much hypocrisy, so much hatred in a place supposed to be 'holy'.

 

[Scaff]

Can I reset my vote in the poll? I... honestly I'm struggling to believe anymore. There's so much evidence to the contrary, and so little in favor. I've never seen so much hypocrisy, so much hatred in a place supposed to be 'holy'.

I've switched on the 'reset my vote' option, so if you wish you can change your vote now.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Can I reset my vote in the poll? I... honestly I'm struggling to believe anymore. There's so much evidence to the contrary, and so little in favor. I've never seen so much hypocrisy, so much hatred in a place supposed to be 'holy'.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm always curious to hear why people give up their faith.

 

[jacnob]

Can you elaborate on this? I'm always curious to hear why people give up their faith.

Well I haven't given up completely, its just slipping some.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Well I haven't given up completely, its just slipping some.

Maybe I worded that wrong, but what exactly changed your mind?

 

[jacnob]

Maybe I worded that wrong, but what exactly changed your mind?

Truthfully I'm not entirely sure.

All of the other Christians (that I know anyways) are massively bigots, and seem to all believe that people who don't believe should be made to believe, and that doesn't sit well with me. We're all entitled to our beliefs, whether I like them or not. Even then, usually I just don't care; you can do what you want to do, and I can do what I want to do, because I have no reason to step and tell you your lifestyle is wrong. Its not my place.

Also, not really related, but I've noticed a lot of Islamic hate. Sure, ISIS, but all those who say they hate Islamic are uneducated on the matter, and don't realize that like a lot of things, you cannot just hate an entire group just because of the extremists in that group. I'm sure that they don't realize how close their beliefs are to those that they hate.

My beliefs just don't line up with most Christian groups around me.


Also, I'm an idiot and misinterpreted what the thread is about I do still believe (or want to believe anyways) in a God, but its just the groups around me that I don't like.


tl;dr I want to believe in God, just not deal with the Christians that surround me.