Do you believe in God?

[Dotini]

Here are some images of natural phenomena which might once have been described as a pillar of fire by night or a pillar of cloud by day.

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[Imari]

tl;dr I want to believe in God, just not deal with the Christians that surround me.

Stick with that. There's nothing wrong with making your own faith. All great religions probably started at some point with one person deciding that they wanted to live their life in a certain way.

I watched a documentary on the founding of Buddhism not long ago. Basically, the Buddha decided how he wanted his life to be and then set out to find ways of being able to live that life. It's kind of cool. Of course, then everyone else afterwards just copied what he did, which is less cool, but I figure anyone can be that guy who goes out and tries to live their own life by their own rules.

If you want to believe in God, then keep believing in God. Remember the things that you don't like about Christians, and don't be like that. Remember the things that you do like, and keep doing them. Choose how you want your life to be, and then make your own rules. Don't let other people peer pressure you into doing stuff you don't want to.

You don't have to be a Christian to believe in God, you can take the parts you like and make up the rest however you think is best. Of course, some Christians will give you endless amounts of crap for this but screw them. If they're being mean to someone trying to live their life in a way that they enjoy, then they're :censored:holes.

Be a Jacnob-ian. You'll enjoy it.

 

[JKgo]

...Hmm

@Imari ....."Be a Jacnob-ian"???

 

[Dotini]

Images of cylindrical UFOs. A pillar of fire by night, a pillar of cloud by day?

This image was taken by Navcam: Right B (NAV_RIGHT_B) onboard NASA’s Mars rover Curiosity on Sol 613 (2014-04-28 04:48:22 UTC).
Image Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech

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[JKgo]

....^^ That looks like a cigarette butt.........

Maybe the E.T.s are fans of Camel....

 

[Imari]

...Hmm

@Imari ....."Be a Jacnob-ian"???

I think he should follow what he believes. That's then his own religion.

His name is jacnob. "-ian" is one way that followers of a religion are designated, eg. Christian = follower of Christ. I suppose I could have said Jacnob-ist, but whatever.

 

[Dotini]

Not in the least...

Any discussion of the Book of Enoch should start with its provenance and authorship. Thought for centuries to be lost with only copies in Ethiopia and Greece, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran opened up a new world of research possibilities on Enoch, as there turned out to be numerous fragments in what was thought to be the library of the Essenes, making it the most popular scroll of that religious community.

This first section of the Book of Enoch describes the fall of the Watchers, the angels who fathered the Nephilim (cf. the bene Elohim,Genesis 6:1–2) and narrates the travels of Enoch in the heavens. This section is said to have been composed in the fourth or 3rd century BC according to Western scholars.[68]

 

[TenEightyOne]

Images of cylindrical UFOs. A pillar of fire by night, a pillar of cloud by day?

Only if the viewers were sensitive to cosmic ray reflection or dead pixels. The elapses of the images (timecodes at NASA) suggest cosmic ray interference.

Any discussion of the Book of Enoch should start with its provenance and authorship.

Absolutely... but I'd still rather like you to give a direction to the chapter/verse where "cold fire" (or equal translation) is written; I simply cannot find such a reference therewithin. That's not to say it's not there, we've established by now that my brain has pretty much dismantled itself over the years.

 

[Dotini]

Only if the viewers were sensitive to cosmic ray reflection or dead pixels. The elapses of the images (timecodes at NASA) suggest cosmic ray interference.



Absolutely... but I'd still rather like you to give a direction to the chapter/verse where "cold fire" (or equal translation) is written; I simply cannot find such a reference therewithin. That's not to say it's not there, we've established by now that my brain has pretty much dismantled itself over the years.

Cosmic rays can kill you, so be careful before you let them into your house - or spaceship! That's why we like our magnetic fields around Earth, and why manned travel to Mars is hazardous.

Before we discuss possible electromagnetic effects in biblical literature, please examine all the images in posts 16531 and 16534 above. It is my contention that electromagnetic effects are taking place in each image - assuming no hoaxing. We can discuss these effects individual if desired. Plasma discharges can be of several varieties. "Dark mode" is plasma discharge in air detectable as a breeze, such as in your room air ionizer, or in space as the solar wind. Glow mode is seen in a discharge tube, like my novelty plasma globe, or fluorescent light phosphor emission of visible light, auroral discharges and occasional glows from power transmission lines. This glow discharge is your cold flame or cold fire. Lightning is an example of plasma arc discharge. Industrial examples are arc lamps and arc welding. In spectrograph analysis, dense plasma is seen as a solid.

 

[Brett]

Stick with that. There's nothing wrong with making your own faith. All great religions probably started at some point with one person deciding that they wanted to live their life in a certain way.

I watched a documentary on the founding of Buddhism not long ago. Basically, the Buddha decided how he wanted his life to be and then set out to find ways of being able to live that life. It's kind of cool. Of course, then everyone else afterwards just copied what he did, which is less cool, but I figure anyone can be that guy who goes out and tries to live their own life by their own rules.

If you want to believe in God, then keep believing in God. Remember the things that you don't like about Christians, and don't be like that. Remember the things that you do like, and keep doing them. Choose how you want your life to be, and then make your own rules. Don't let other people peer pressure you into doing stuff you don't want to.

You don't have to be a Christian to believe in God, you can take the parts you like and make up the rest however you think is best. Of course, some Christians will give you endless amounts of crap for this but screw them. If they're being mean to someone trying to live their life in a way that they enjoy, then they're :censored:holes.

Be a Jacnob-ian. You'll enjoy it.

Fantastic post! 👍

 

[Dotini]

The Book of Enoch plays an important role in the history of Jewish mysticism: the great scholar Gershom Scholem wrote, "The main subjects of the later Merkabah mysticism already occupy a central position in the older esoteric literature, best represented by the Book of Enoch."[54]Particular attention is paid to the detailed description of the throne of God included in chapter 14 of 1 Enoch.

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1 Enoch, Chapter 14

1This is the book of the words of righteousness, and of the reproof of the Watchers, who belong to the world, (18) according to that which He, who is holy and great, commanded in the vision. I perceived in my dream, that I was now speaking with a tongue of flesh, and with my breath, which the Mighty One has put into the mouth of men, that they might converse with it.

(18) Who belong to the world. Or, "who (are) from eternity" (Knibb, p. 95).

2And understand with the heart. As he has created and given to men the power of comprehending the word of understanding, so has he created and given to me the power of reproving the Watchers, the offspring of heaven. I have written your petition; and in my vision it has been shown me, that what you request will not be granted you as long as the world endures.

3Judgment has been passed upon you: your request will not be granted you.

4From this time forward, never shall you ascend into heaven; He has said, that on the earth He will bind you, as long as the world endures.

5But before these things you shall behold the destruction of your beloved sons; you shall not possess them, but they shall fall before you by the sword.

6Neither shall you entreat for them, not for yourselves;

7But you shall weep and supplicate in silence. The words of the book which I wrote. (19)

(19) But you shall weep…I wrote. Or, "Likewise despite your tears and prayers you will receive nothing whatever contained in the writing which I have written" (Charles, p. 80).

8A vision thus appeared to me.

9Behold, in that vision clouds and a mist invited me; agitated stars and flashes of lightning impelled and pressed me forwards, while winds in the vision assisted my flight, accelerating my progress.


10They elevated me aloft to heaven. I proceeded, until I arrived at a wall built with stones of crystal. A vibrating flame (20) surrounded it, which began to strike me with terror.

(20) Vibrating flame. Literally, "a tongue of fire"

11Into this vibrating flame I entered;

12And drew nigh to a spacious habitation built also with stones of crystal. Its walls too, as well as pavement, were formed with stones of crystal, and crystal likewise was the ground. Its roof had the appearance of agitated stars and flashes of lightning; and among them were cherubim of fire in a stormy sky. (21) A flame burned around its walls; and its portal blazed with fire. When I entered into this dwelling, it was hot as fire and cold as ice. No trace of delight or of life was there. Terror overwhelmed me, and a fearful shaking seized me.

(21) In a stormy sky. Literally, "and their heaven was water" (Charles, p. 81).

13Violently agitated and trembling, I fell upon my face. In the vision I looked.

14And behold there was another habitation more spacious than the former, every entrance to which was open before me, erected in the midst of a vibrating flame.


15So greatly did it excel in all points, in glory, in magnificence, and in magnitude, that it is impossible to describe to you either the splendour or the extent of it.

16Its floor was on fire; above were lightnings and agitated stars, while its roof exhibited a blazing fire.

17Attentively I surveyed it, and saw that it contained an exalted throne;

18The appearance of which was like that of frost; while its circumference resembled the orb of the brilliant sun; and there was the voice of the cherubim.

19From underneath this mighty throne rivers of flaming fire issued.

20To look upon it was impossible.

21One great in glory sat upon it:

22Whose robe was brighter than the sun, and whiter than snow.

23No angel was capable of penetrating to view the face of Him, the Glorious and the Effulgent; nor could any mortal behold Him. A fire was flaming around Him.

24A fire also of great extent continued to rise up before Him; so that not one of those who surrounded Him was capable of approaching Him, among the myriads of myriads (22) who were before Him. To Him holy consultation was needless. Yet did not the sanctified, who were near Him, depart far from Him either by night or by day; nor were they removed from Him. I also was so far advanced, with a veil on my face, and trembling. Then the Lord with his own mouth called me, saying,Approach hither, Enoch, at my holy word.

(22) Myriads of myriads. Ten thousand times ten thousands (Knibb, p. 99).

25And He raised me up, making me draw near even to the entrance. My eye was directed to the ground.

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Sumerian culture hero/angel, bringer of agriculture, kingship, technology and war




Megalithic pillar at Gobekli Tepe, erected c12,000 BC

 

[JockeP22]

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

 

[phillgt2002]

If someone calls you the Devil, what do you say if you don't believe in the devil or his lighter counterpart God?

 

[TenEightyOne]

@Dotini, as I mentioned earlier I'd already found the "hot as fire, cold as ice" text in reference to the dwelling. The tract you posted is very interesting (as is all of Enoch) but I fail to see the cold fire references of which you were so sure.

Perhaps Enoch wasn't the prophet of desktop fusion after all?

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

Love it, I might get a bumper sticker made

 

[Dotini]

@Dotini, as I mentioned earlier I'd already found the "hot as fire, cold as ice" text in reference to the dwelling. The tract you posted is very interesting (as is all of Enoch) but I fail to see the cold fire references of which you were so sure.

Perhaps Enoch wasn't the prophet of desktop fusion after all?

If you read very carefully, you may notice Enoch enters a structure in which virtually every part appears to be spitting fire and flame, and to be populated with fiery creatures, or cherubim. Yet Enoch is not burned. The structure is not reduced to cinders and ash. The proprietor himself is neither burned nor calling for extinguishers or the fire department, and the creatures are not howling in pain. All of this is highly unusual and demands explanation. Yet you blithely ignore it. "Hot as fire and cold as ice" is the open clue we are dealing with low density plasma, which may have very high electron temperatures but low ion and ambient temperatures; glow discharge or cold flame. But you have the wit to understand all this. That you choose not to merely tells me that you were insincere all along, trolling for a joke, and determinedly uninterested in discussing the mysteries and questions raised by Enoch and the Watchers. It will difficult for me to ever take you seriously again. So very sorry. You disappoint me greatly.

High electron temperature glow discharge. The plasma density and ambient temperature are low.

 

[Imari]

If someone calls you the Devil, what do you say if you don't believe in the devil or his lighter counterpart God?

Don't say anything, just punch them in the face.

I'd respond to the sentiment, rather than the words, myself. Just because you haven't actually had sexual relations with your mother, doesn't change the insult intended.

Violence probably isn't the way to go about things, but feel free to give them an earful at least. Or ignore them, because they're clearly dribbling idiots. Whichever takes your fancy.

 

[Joel]

If someone calls you the Devil, what do you say if you don't believe in the devil or his lighter counterpart God?

Probably say nothing or just say OK, and then think of something witty when I get home.

 

[FoRiZon]

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

The pun is strong in this one.

Spoiler

non profit

 

[TenEightyOne]

The pun is strong in this one.

Spoiler

non profit

Thank you for the explanation, Professor Liebstraum

 

[Exorcet]

If you read very carefully, you may notice Enoch enters a structure in which virtually every part appears to be spitting fire and flame, and to be populated with fiery creatures, or cherubim. Yet Enoch is not burned. The structure is not reduced to cinders and ash. The proprietor himself is neither burned nor calling for extinguishers or the fire department, and the creatures are not howling in pain. All of this is highly unusual and demands explanation.

Imagination. It's not as if anyone is witnessing this, it's something that has been written down. You can't take it as something that must have happened. The most obvious explanation is a person with limited knowledge trying to come up with something divine sounding. Fire that doesn't burn. People back then don't even understand fire that does burn, now just have it do something everyone assumes it's not possible at a time where the scientific method is not known, and bam it's credible nonsense.

Yet you blithely ignore it.

If anything, I think you're jumping to conclusions.

"Hot as fire and cold as ice" is the open clue we are dealing with low density plasma

It doesn't mean anything. Someone is making up a paradox so that other people of his time can only conclude that magic could pull off what he's describing, thus God.

which may have very high electron temperatures but low ion and ambient temperatures

Something no one would understand at the time, and so nothing they would mention.

If ancient texts really do have some kind of advanced knowledge, they need to spell it out plainly. There's no time for poetry or ambiguous words.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If you read very carefully, you may notice Enoch enters a structure in which virtually every part appears to be spitting fire and flame, and to be populated with fiery creatures, or cherubim. Yet Enoch is not burned. The structure is not reduced to cinders and ash. The proprietor himself is neither burned nor calling for extinguishers or the fire department, and the creatures are not howling in pain. All of this is highly unusual and demands explanation. Yet you blithely ignore it. "Hot as fire and cold as ice" is the open clue we are dealing with low density plasma, which may have very high electron temperatures but low ion and ambient temperatures; glow discharge or cold flame. But you have the wit to understand all this. That you choose not to merely tells me that you were insincere all along, trolling for a joke, and determinedly uninterested in discussing the mysteries and questions raised by Enoch and the Watchers. It will difficult for me to ever take you seriously again. So very sorry. You disappoint me greatly.

As hot as fire. We've established it was hot. As cold as ice, we've established it was cold. If it looked like fire and felt like ice then I'd expect that to be mentioned, albeit in the lay-terms of the day (such as we read in Enoch).

I give no more credence to that fanciful description than to descriptions of a man who was nailed up, died, came to life and then flew up to heaven. I agree with @Exorcet that we're reading a poetic paradox that was sure to wow the goat-herders of the day.

 

[Dotini]

Review original file image for closer look at unidentified objects and beings.


Imam Ali Conquers Jinn, unknown artist, Ahsan-ol-Kobar 1568 Golestan Palace

Original file ‎(594 × 900 pixels, file size: 336 KB, MIME type: image/jpeg)

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/304033/jinni
Even Muḥammad originally feared that his revelations might be the work of jinn. Their existence was further acknowledged in official Islām

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According to traditions, the jinn stood behind the learned humans in Solomon's court, who in turn, sat behind the prophets. The jinn remained in the service of Solomon, who had placed them in bondage, and had ordered them to perform a number of tasks.

"And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts,- of jinn and men and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks." (Qur'an 27:17)

Muslims believe that jinn are real beings. The jinn are said to be creatures with free will, made of smokeless fire by God (the literal translation being "subtle fire", i.e. a fire which does not give itself away through smoke), much in the same way humans were made of a metaphorical clay. In the Qur'an, jinn are frequently mentioned and Sura 72 of the Qur'an named Al-Jinn is entirely about them. Another Sura (Al- Naas) mentions the Jinn in the last verse. In fact, the Prophet Muhammad was said to have been sent as a prophet to both "humanity and the jinn."



The 72nd chapter of the Qur'an entitled al-Jinn (the Spirits), as well as the heading and introductory bismillah of the next chapter entitled al-Muzzammil (The Enshrouded One).

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Daeva (daēuua, daāua, daēva) in Avestan language meaning a spirit, or "a being of shining light", is a term for a particular sort of supernatural entity with disagreeable characteristics. Equivalents in Iranian languages include Pashtodêw (Uber ghost, demon, giant), Baluchi dêw (giant, monster), Persian dīv (adaemon, genius, an ogre, a giant), Kurdish dêw (giant, monster). The Iranian word was borrowed into Old Armenian as dew, Georgian as devi and Urdu asdeo. In the Gathas, the oldest texts of the Zoroastrian canon, the daevas are powers of nature like Agni Agni, Sun Surya, Pavan Air etc. This meaning is—subject to interpretation—perhaps also evident in the Old Persian daivainscription' of the 5th century BCE.



Div on a Stamp of Azerbaijan

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Here is where our story should properly begin; Gobekli Tepe at the end of the last Ice Age.

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• Note the three curious objects at the top of the pillar, the ones that look like rectangles with curved arches above them. What are they?

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What object is the Olmec culture hero/deity/feathered serpent holding in his right hand?

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  What is the object being held in left hand? The right?

 

[MatskiMonk]

Review original file image for closer look at unidentified objects and beings.

• What is the object being held in left hand? The right?

Rockin' a man purse, looks like he's about to pop his blackberry(s) in there. Messenger bag would probably have messed with his wings!

I'm more worried about what the clenched fist is doing at his hemline - mind you, it might explain his startled facial expression.

 

[Dotini]

Okay, blackberries and a man's purse is one idea. Not bad. Why would they put three men's purses at the top of a 12,000 year old monument?

Any other ideas?

 

[dylansan]

I don't really see what's so interesting about the last two. Surely they had pots or buckets or bags with handles back then. It wouldn't take much. I suspect the three shapes on the pillar are unrelated. You can see an additional shape to the right of each that looks like some kind of animal. They may well just be hills.

 

[Imari]

Why would they put three men's purses at the top of a 12,000 year old monument?

Because it wasn't 12,000 years old when they made it. It was new.

How about instead of attempting to lead everyone to the conclusion that you want them to draw, you just explain your reasoning and let people decide for themselves? My first thought was also purses, although my first non-facetious thought was a bucket.

 

[zzz_pt]

Here are some images of natural phenomena which might once have been described as a pillar of fire by night or a pillar of cloud by day.

This would never happen in the middle east.

 

[DCP]

"Scaff, post: 10606662, member: 15439"]Not even remotely close in terms of a comparison.

We have plenty of evidence to a scientific standard to make a hypothesis about the universe. We have no evidence at all to support a factual claim of 1 to 2 million people sodding off from Egypt (which would have been circa 20% of the population at that time), wandering around the desert for 40 years and then turning up and increasing the population of the region Israel is in by more than 20%

We are talking about event that would have left a massive trail of evidence behind, yet none exists, why is that?

How so, as this happened almost 4000 years ago. Are people even bothered to look for evidence?. Who knows. Pure guess work, like what you mentioned above?
Now science is saying even the universe is not moving away as fast as they thought. I would say God is playing with them, since they are never certain.


You do know that as much evidence exists to support these as does for Judaism and Christianity?

Why do you dismiss one and not the other?

Oh and why do you have an inability to understand the linear nature of time? Zoroastrianism (and a number of others as well) existed before the book of Isiah was written.

However the most important question I have to ask is why are you inferring that I'm going to kill myself (after all you have just said that I am doing Satan's work and as such I would be one of those who "The father of lies has manifested himself in").



Citation required.

What evidence are you looking for, besides the Rapture and Second coming, to know that God exists?
Does the prophecy of the one world government and the mark of the beast not mean anything to you?

Let me help you with Isaiah 53, in case you reading the false bibles...

Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.


4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And theya]'>[a] made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul,b]'>[b] and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

You see, the bible protects us from false prophets, see Deuteronomy 18.
If a prophet does not speak in the name of the Lord, they will die.


So you ingore the majority of what I said and......




....simply insult me instead.

All I'm doing is asking you perfectly reasonable questions based on the claims you are making, it seems that in your frustration you are resorting to insults rather than answers. Doesn't that go against the teachings of your saviour?

Oh and why have you not answered the questions in the Creation/Evolution thread? Please address them as soon as possible.[/QUOTE]

Please don't get the wrong impression. I was never frustrated, and neither did I even attempt to insult you. It's your free will to believe so. I merely stated how you react to the bible, always wanting to have a defence, instead of at least trying to understand where born again Christians are actually coming from.

I thought this was the God thread...although to be honest trying to pin @DCP down with sources or reasoning is giving me thread blindness in every place where it happens. Apologies

EDIT: Thanks @Scaff, I understand now



Which is like saying "go Google it". Not how it works. Name some verses.

But lattices... I'll give you that, the word "אֲרֻבֹּתֵיהֶם" means (their, fem) chimney, window or lattice (specifically the lattice covering a chimney). Interestingly it can also be used for floodgate.

Cool. Do you know the bible also talks about nuclear weapons?

Well I haven't given up completely, its just slipping some.

Don't mistake Christianity as a comparison to other religions.
Born again Christians have a relationship with Christ. We don't follow rules and laws.
You just need a kind clean heart, and most importantly, the love of Christ.
Part of having a good clean heart, is to obey the fulfilled law of the commandments of God.
We are not longer bound by the law of the old testament, or the sacrificial law. We are under the Grace of the Son of God. Peace

 

[TenEightyOne]

Cool. Do you know the bible also talks about nuclear weapons?

Do you wake at night to hear the words "Citation Required"? 'Cos guess what?

 

[DQuaN]

Pure guess work, like what you mentioned above?

Guess work? GUESS WORK?

You really have no clue.

Cool. Do you know the bible also talks about nuclear weapons?

I can assure you it doesn't.