Do you believe in God?

[Beeblebrox237]

@DCP @SuperCobraJet

 

[ryzno]

I know this should probably be posted in the other thread. But homosexuality has been brought up, so I want to chime in cause reading that people are born gay is ludicrous.

What about the children who were sexually molested and turned gay from the trauma?
What about the women who were victims of domestic violence and turned lesbian?
Think real now, do you honestly believe they were born gay?

 

[MatskiMonk]

What about the children who were sexually molested and turned gay from the trauma?
What about the women who were victims of domestic violence and turned lesbian?

This happens?

 

[Scaff]

I know this should probably be posted in the other thread. But homosexuality has been brought up, so I want to chime in cause reading that people are born gay is ludicrous.

What about the children who were sexually molested and turned gay from the trauma?

Citation required

What about the women who were victims of domestic violence and turned lesbian?

Citation required

Think real now, do you honestly believe they were born gay?

What I think about it is irrelevant, what matters is the rather large amount of scientific evidence to show it is something oen is born with.

However let me ask the question that no one who claims its a choice has yet answered, when did you chose your sexuality? What age were you and what process did you go through to make the choice you did?

Once you have done that please explain how that then works for the 1,500+ species of animals that also include homosexuality?

 

[jimipitbull]

This happens?

It's probably like in the cartoons. Hit them once, they lose their memory. Hit them again, memory returns.

I know this should probably be posted in the other thread. But homosexuality has been brought up, so I want to chime in cause reading that people are born gay is ludicrous.

What about the children who were sexually molested and turned gay from the trauma?
What about the women who were victims of domestic violence and turned lesbian?
Think real now, do you honestly believe they were born gay?

Tell me more, tell me more, did they put up a fight?
What if they were already lesbian when they became victim of domestic violence?
What if a lesbian victim of domestic violence sexually molested a tranny?
Think real now, what if the tranny enjoyed it. Would that effect the outcome of sexuality?

Once you have done that please explain how that then works for the 1,500+ species of animals that also include homosexuality?

Wouldn't you need to first prove that these animals can think of themselves in terms of sexuality? Most animals don't even recognize themselves in a mirror....

 

[TheCracker]

What about the children who were sexually molested and turned gay from the trauma?
What about the women who were victims of domestic violence and turned lesbian?
Think real now, do you honestly believe they were born gay?

What about the children who watched Disney cartoons and now shriek at the sight of vermin? (and other completely unrelated instances that hold absolutely no truth)

 

[Scaff]

Wouldn't you need to first prove that these animals can think of themselves in terms of sexuality? Most animals don't even recognize themselves in a mirror....

Exactly, now if it really was a choice that could be made we wouldn't be seeing a great deal of gay Penguins.

 

[niky]

I know this should probably be posted in the other thread. But homosexuality has been brought up, so I want to chime in cause reading that people are born gay is ludicrous.

What about the children who were sexually molested and turned gay from the trauma?
What about the women who were victims of domestic violence and turned lesbian?
Think real now, do you honestly believe they were born gay?

Which is why, apparently, boys molested by priests become heterosexual adults? Are you suggesting molestation is a means of curing homosexuality, since, apparently trauma can change your sexual orientation?

How old are you? Twelve?

Do you know anything at all about human psychology?

 

[jimipitbull]

Exactly, now if it really was a choice that could be made we wouldn't be seeing a great deal of gay Penguins.

From what I hear penguins aren't very fussy. Maybe it's just an easy way for them to keep warm while the missus is out catching fish.

 

[Scaff]

From what I hear penguins aren't very fussy. Maybe it's just an easy way for them to keep warm while the missus is out catching fish.

That depends on the species of Penguin, but if you would like an example of homosexual behavior in which pairs mate for life then you need look no further than Swans.

Point is that homosexual behavior has been observed in a huge number of species (as have many other areas of sexuality), as such the idea that this is a conscious choice is very, very unlikely (without the genetic evidence that also exists).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

 

[jimipitbull]

That depends on the species of Penguin, but if you would like an example of homosexual behavior in which pairs mate for life then you need look no further than Swans.

Well then, it's probably no coincidence that Noah selected a pair of swans to save, among other things.

 

[Scaff]

Well then, it's probably no coincidence that Noah selected a pair of swans to save, among other things.

Or Utnapishtim

 

[jimipitbull]

Or Utnapishtim

Do you believe in Gilgamesh?

 

[Danoff]

@Beeblebrox237

I was genuinely confused by everyone's 2nd and onward guesses. Their first guesses I understood, but after that I wanted everyone to guess "1, 1, 1". I was stumped as to why those people would be making guesses that would not be likely to extract information. Good thing he explained.

 

[Terronium-12]

I know this should probably be posted in the other thread. But homosexuality has been brought up, so I want to chime in cause reading that people are born gay is ludicrous.

What about the children who were sexually molested and turned gay from the trauma?
What about the women who were victims of domestic violence and turned lesbian?
Think real now, do you honestly believe they were born gay?

I'm sorry, actually, I'm not sorry because these types of ignorant responses foster ignorant discussion.

Think real now? Wouldn't that require this to not be happening as it were? Think real now...

@Beeblebrox237 That video got me as much it did the people it was tested on. My instinct was 2+2=4, 4+4=8 (this was just looking at the thumbnail), and needless to say I was way off. Interesting.

 

[Famine]

I know this should probably be posted in the other thread. But homosexuality has been brought up, so I want to chime in cause reading that people are born gay is ludicrous.

What about the children who were sexually molested and turned gay from the trauma?
What about the women who were victims of domestic violence and turned lesbian?
Think real now, do you honestly believe they were born gay?

I... what? Did you... But...

What?!

 

[CodeRedR51]

Are they born Homosexual, or are they born under the influence of something they are powerless to overcome?

Oh the irony.

 

[Lizard]

Are they born Homosexual, or are they born under the influence of something they are powerless to overcome?

You do understand that either way it is still not a choice.

 

[FoRiZon]

I think @ryzno supposedly just asking if it possible for a rape victim to change its orientation.

But then again, the last question nulls my statement.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Your freewill? What, your freewill to lust for a person of the same gender? But if god will not override or influence your freewill, then how in the world are you ever going to "change" your sexuality, if to do so you need god?

And why is it that so many deeply Christian people also identify as gay?

You seem to have twisted yourself into a little paradox.

Not exactly.
As you say there are many people who claim to be Christian and gay.
In a way, considering a bumper sticker I used to see that read:
"I'm not perfect, just forgiven" perhaps it's possible.
However, in the case of those making the dual claim, they believe it is justifiably consistent with the Christian faith.
But there are also those who are Christian who say they were delivered from being a Homosexual and have Christian ministries that operate under that claim.
Or that one can be delivered from it by the power of God.
So which is consistent or morally correct?
Considering the teachings of Paul in his first letter of Romans, I do not see anyway to reconcile the following statements he made with regard to Homosexuality, as consistent or justifiable under the Christian Faith.
Therefore I would have to conclude the dual claim is illegitimate.

Romans 1
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin],

25 Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it).bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing andgoing astray, which was [their] fitting retribution.

26 For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one,

27 And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another—men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing andgoing astray, which was [their] fitting retribution.

You said you we couldn't look at this as no control group existed, I pointed out that 2/3rd of the world is not Christian. They haven't mob rule and total anarchy.

I think that maybe debatable concerning some areas.
That also maybe attributable to the type of rule present in some parts of the world.
Despots do not generally like competition.
Generally as well some form of religion is present which establishes a higher moral authority of some kind.

No one is obliged to do so, as an evolved social species we get in built rewards for altruistic behavior and don't need a higher power to stop us doing bad things.

I will defer to Penn in regard to this as it sums up my own views quite nicely:

For a fellow who seems to like statistics, I am surprised you went with such a small sampling here.
Even so you did hit upon an important factor.
That being, "who decides what is bad"?

Who was it then?.

The usual suspects, us.

So who would this person have been that added it back in then and how would they have know that Jesus said it?.

I haven't a clue.
Perhaps inside information, a document available at the time and since lost.
Just one of many possibilities.
Since new discoveries are being made overtime, we may know the answer at some point in the future.

Its an unrealistic standard, if the only people who are able to stand in law as judges and jurors are those without any form of Biblical sin then you have no one (not even JC himself) able to implement laws (jury duty would be hilarious however - swore at your parents, nope you're no good out you go). It also removed the concept that people can be punished, serve the sentence and be rehabilitated.

Good point.
However at the time under the theocracy that existed in Israel, the penalty for a woman caught in adultery was stoning to death.
His comment made authoritatively, was a radical departure and in direct opposition to their law.
Part of the radical change that was made from the old to the new covenant.

You don't.

You can behave in such a way that allows others to respect your rights. Or you can behave in such a way that absolves others of any reason to respect your rights. The choice is yours. Violate the rights of others, and you'll have lost your claim to your own rights. Pretty easy.

So the above is it when it comes to obligation - there isn't one. There are only logical consequences for your actions. Murder someone and you have lost your own right to life. Easy.

But of course there is more to it. There is the type of person that you want to be. The influence you want to have on others. This is what Mr. Jillette is speaking about above.

All of that is great, but that which you consider murder, maybe just solving a problem to someone else.
Someone else's logic maybe considerably different from yours.
And since you have no more moral authority than them, they have no obligation to adhere to your moral code.

I know this should probably be posted in the other thread. But homosexuality has been brought up, so I want to chime in cause reading that people are born gay is ludicrous.

What about the children who were sexually molested and turned gay from the trauma?
What about the women who were victims of domestic violence and turned lesbian?
Think real now, do you honestly believe they were born gay?

I don't know about all, but among some, those experiences played a major role in their sexual orientation.

 

[Danoff]

All of that is great, but that which you consider murder, maybe just solving a problem to someone else.

That's fine. But if they murder someone they have no claim to a right to their life.

Someone else's logic maybe considerably different from yours.

Beautiful thing about logic is that it's not subjective.

And since you have no more moral authority than them, they have no obligation to adhere to your moral code.

Right... but we also have no obligation to avoid incarcerating or executing them in response.

 

[ryzno]

Good lord I haven't had this many alerts, in a while.

I was not saying all homosexuals have been through some sort of abuse. I've seen a few documentaries about sexual abuse (please try to make this site Android friendly I'll try to fix/finish this post)becoming homosexual after the act of abuse. Ill atempt
As far as domestic violence and homosexuality, I have a neighbor early 30's who has been in 4 violent relationships with men and she has 5 kids so I don't think you can say she was gay

 

[TenEightyOne]

That's fine. But if they murder someone they have no claim to a right to their life.

Not so. It depends on the circumstances and on whether or not you consider the "right to life" inalienable.

Beautiful thing about logic is that it's not subjective.

But you're quoting the logic of some particular people (deontologists), not something that's naturally occurring.

Right... but we also have no obligation to avoid incarcerating or executing them in response.

In the framework of legal rights we can, of course, incarcerate them. The "right to end life" is also a legal-only construct.

 

[huskeR32]

I was not saying all homosexuals have been through some sort of abuse.

I don't think anybody took it that way to begin with. That you think it's even true of some cases is a bit off-putting. Do you actually have any evidence that it has ever happened?

I've seen a few documentaries about sexual abuse (please try to make this site Android friendly I'll try to fix/finish this post)becoming homosexual after the act of abuse.

How do you know they weren't already homosexual before the abuse?

And to think of it from another angle: What about the cases where sexual abuse victims don't "become" homosexual? Would you then say that the abuse caused their heterosexuality?

 

[Scaff]

I think that maybe debatable concerning some areas.
That also maybe attributable to the type of rule present in some parts of the world.
Despots do not generally like competition.
Generally as well some form of religion is present which establishes a higher moral authority of some kind.

So all the secular countries of the world are run by despots now?

Not to mention that you stated a Christian origin, not a religious one or are these religion equal to Christianity?

For a fellow who seems to like statistics, I am surprised you went with such a small sampling here.
Even so you did hit upon an important factor.
That being, "who decides what is bad"?

Did I say it was statistical? I've already done that and you ignored them, so let me ask you. Do you think that you would murder and rape if it were not for the laws of God and the fear of him?

The usual suspects, us.

Well that then puts every word of the Bible into question.

I haven't a clue.
Perhaps inside information, a document available at the time and since lost.
Just one of many possibilities.
Since new discoveries are being made overtime, we may know the answer at some point in the future.

So until then you ignore the evidence in front of you?

Good point.
However at the time under the theocracy that existed in Israel, the penalty for a woman caught in adultery was stoning to death.
His comment made authoritatively, was a radical departure and in direct opposition to their law.
Part of the radical change that was made from the old to the new covenant.

A law that your God put in place!

Also you are once again assuming that he said it, the problem is that the evidence doesn't support that (but don't worry about that - I know you will just ignore that).

I don't know about all, but among some, those experiences played a major role in their sexual orientation.

Citation required.

 

[Danoff]

Not so. It depends on the circumstances and on whether or not you consider the "right to life" inalienable.

Rights are "inalienable" for external forces. You can give them up via your own actions.

But you're quoting the logic of some particular people (deontologists), not something that's naturally occurring.

There is no such thing as "logic of some particular people".

In the framework of legal rights we can, of course, incarcerate them. The "right to end life" is also a legal-only construct.

The law, of course, has no bearing on what is moral.

 

[Scaff]

Good lord I haven't had this many alerts, in a while.

I was not saying all homosexuals have been through some sort of abuse. I've seen a few documentaries about sexual abuse (please try to make this site Android friendly I'll try to fix/finish this post)becoming homosexual after the act of abuse. Ill atempt
As far as domestic violence and homosexuality, I have a neighbor early 30's who has been in 4 violent relationships with men and she has 5 kids so I don't think you can say she was gay

Lets try some actual scientific data shall we.

 

[Mike458]

Good lord I haven't had this many alerts, in a while.

I was not saying all homosexuals have been through some sort of abuse. I've seen a few documentaries about sexual abuse (please try to make this site Android friendly I'll try to fix/finish this post)becoming homosexual after the act of abuse. Ill atempt
As far as domestic violence and homosexuality, I have a neighbor early 30's who has been in 4 violent relationships with men and she has 5 kids so I don't think you can say she was gay

Citation Evidence required.

 

[ryzno]

Except for putting my neighbors facebook on here I have no scientific proof, just what I have seen in life. Take it how you want to but she was not gay until the last relationship, here baby daddy is locked up for what he did and now she is on her 2nd girlfriend, ironically enough she is still having the same relationship problems.

Scaff asked when I figured out my sexuality, around 9 or 10 I found my father's porn and even though I didn't understand what was happening I was aroused by women. And after a hospital visit at 11 I was sure I didn't like things going on in that manner. (I could not eat from surgery so I had to take the meds another way.)
Some chose, some probably are born gay, others a symptom of abuse. Regardless they are human.

.

 

[Jet Badger]

Except for putting my neighbors facebook on here I have no scientific proof, just what I have seen in life.

Well, that's a rather slim sample size indeed.