Do you believe in God?

[Sir Tuddle]

You miss the point again. You don't follow Gods rules because you have to. First you need to know God, then you will realize why you want to follow His ways, and not live in sin.

Because giving us finite bodies and having us live under the threat of being sent into eternal suffering doesn't seem at all like he's forcing us into anything, right?

 

[Com Fox]

The last paragraph is key. If Adam and Eve remained obedient, we wouldn't have the problem we've had. Every kind of good, along with every kind of evil. There is nothing hidden. What we see is what we get, from a True and Just Creator. Likewise the 2nd realm, which possibly CERN may discover and open up.

Free will caused it, hence why I ask you, do you think free will is a good thing or bad thing?
Cain, Hitler, Stalin, Osama, Napoleon all have the same free will. Could they have used it for good, or did they have to use it for bad?

God is saying, "Children, I gave you everything, but it's not enough. Go for it, but I promise, it will not give you peace. It will not satisfy you either. Even if you try every other option you can think of, I'm still waiting here with arms open. If you die though, then it's too late, because you can't come back and change it"

Then how does giving us the ability bad things makes God creations absolutely good like you say.

I honestly love the freedom to do and say things, I see bad things as a way to cherish the good in life but I doubt at all that can be considered Good design. It's like playing a poorly designed game but still liking it, it is 🤬 in its design but you still like it and cherish the good moments despite the bad.

 

[Denur]

Sorry, I'm not understanding you here. God is good, and made everything good. He is all knowing.
He knew man would rebel, yet gave him the benefit to do as he pleased. This is why man is pleased to do both good and evil. He makes the choice himself. Do you have a free will today? Can you do whatever you want? Yes I'm sure.

Yes I have free will, but it is not god-given. With an all-knowing god, there simply cannot be true free will, because everything is predetermined anyway. You cannot have it both ways; either you have god-given free will by a god does not know the choices we will make in the future (so he is not all-knowing, and a bit of a loser), or there is an all knowing god, but then there cannot be true free will and that there is merely an illusion of god-given free will. And as @Imari pointed out, the free will as supposedly given by your god, is not free will, because it is rooted in blackmail.

I appreciate that this is hard for you to understand, let alone accept, because to you the god of the Bible is a good god, one you firmly believe in. I hope that one day you will at least recognize these kind of inconsistencies within the Bible.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Cain, Hitler, Stalin, Osama, Napoleon all have the same free will. Could they have used it for good, or did they have to use it for bad?

Ridiculously simplistic, and one's made-up. First you have to decide whether or not "free will" was at play or external physiological factors over which some may have had no control - Stalin's breakdown after his wife's suicide combined with massive cerebral ateriosclerosis, Hitler's significant head injury, although of course some were just purely mad-or-bad by biological design. I'd still hesitate to call any of those factors "free will" as if each of them chose those predilections.

 

[DCP]

Yes I have free will, but it is not god-given. With an all-knowing god, there simply cannot be true free will, because everything is predetermined anyway. You cannot have it both ways; either you have god-given free will by a god does not know the choices we will make in the future (so he is not all-knowing, and a bit of a loser), or there is an all knowing god, but then there cannot be true free will and that there is merely an illusion of god-given free will. And as @Imari pointed out, the free will as supposedly given by your god, is not free will, because it is rooted in blackmail.

I appreciate that this is hard for you to understand, let alone accept, because to you the god of the Bible is a good god, one you firmly believe in. I hope that one day you will at least recognize these kind of inconsistencies within the Bible.

Predetermined by who?
If you say God, then yes, absolutely, but that doesn't change what we think or do. We do everything of our own will. When we kill, lie and steal, it's our own choice to do so. If God didn't know this, He wouldn't send His Son for us. He knows why we need this, to escape Judgment for all crimes. It's a choice whether you want to escape it or not.

Gods ways and thoughts are higher than ours. We can't assume that God knows our destination. Perhaps He chooses to know such things when He feels like, in His own time.

Ridiculously simplistic, and one's made-up. First you have to decide whether or not "free will" was at play or external physiological factors over which some may have had no control - Stalin's breakdown after his wife's suicide combined with massive cerebral ateriosclerosis, Hitler's significant head injury, although of course some were just purely mad-or-bad by biological design. I'd still hesitate to call any of those factors "free will" as if each of them chose those predilections.

Making excuses is also something I like to call free will. On that day, when memories are brought into account, no one will have excuses. Kinda like the rich man in hell. He never questioned why he was in hell, but rather cried out for someone to tell his family not to come to hell.

I love that one. He said" let me go and tell them that hell is real". They said to him "If they can't believe the prophets or the "Christians", what makes you think they will be persuaded and listen to Someone who came back from the dead"

 

[TenEightyOne]

Making excuses is also something I like to call free will. On that day, when memories are brought into account, no one will have excuses. Kinda like the rich man in hell. He never questioned why he was in hell, but rather cried out for someone to tell his family not to come to hell.

To be clear; Stephen Hawking simply chooses to act the way he does? Physiological impairment is subject to free will?

EDIT: Hawking, not Hawkins, thanks @MatskiMonk

 

[MatskiMonk]

@TenEightyOne ing, not ins.

 

[Imari]

Oh, and Christians are always persecuted for our faith in Christ. You see, we know that flesh is temporary. Anyone is free to kill my family and I because of what we believe, but we will stand for Christ till the end. You should question those for why they kill Christians for their innocent belief.

Hilarious.

So if someone threatens to kill you or your family for your belief, that's persecution.
But if your God threatens to torture me for eternity for my belief, that's...what? Just? Good? Righteous?

Your perspective is so warped by your belief in God, you're unable to imagine what it might be like for someone who didn't think as you do.

Religion kills their enemies, while Christ laid down His life for His enemies, and likewise, for you and I.

Let's be fair, Christianity has killed it's fair share of people as well.

Predetermined by who?
If you say God, then yes, absolutely, but that doesn't change what we think or do. We do everything of our own will.

Sigh.

If it's predetermined, then it's not our own will. That is the point. If God predetermined things, then he made the decision and not you. You have no free will.

If God decides that you will have a peanut butter sandwich for lunch, and you decide that you will have ham and eggs, then what happens? One of you has to decide, and you're only having one lunch. Is it a negotiation? Is it that one of you never gets what you want? What?

Who wears the pants when you and God disagree?

 

[Denur]

Predetermined by who?
If you say God, then yes, absolutely, but that doesn't change what we think or do. We do everything of our own will.

If everything is predetermined by God, than what we think is predetermined by God, what we do is predetermined by God. There can be no free will if there is an all knowing god. There is free will, however, so either your god is not all knowing, or he does not exist. I don't see any other taste.

edit

Gods ways and thoughts are higher than ours. We can't assume that God knows our destination. Perhaps He chooses to know such things when He feels like, in His own time.

You should, just for giggles, keep track of how often you and your fellow believers do this kind of speculation in scenarios that would make perfect sense in absence of your god.

 

[FoRiZon]

@DCP Explain to me what is free will in general, descriptively. Lets put aside the god or religion thing first.

 

[W3H5]

@DCP - allow me to bring up to common arguments against God and get your response, please.

1. You seem to believe that the God of the Bible is good, right? And I assuming from what you claim that you believe it to be all truth and take it as literal, right?

Well you must follow your commandments, yes? Like the commandment that states you should take a disobedient child to a place where he will be stoned to death? There is no misinterpreting that, it is what it is. If you follow the commandments of the bible, of which there are over 600 I believe, then you agree that a naughty child should be stoned to death. If you don't believe this then you are simply picking and choosing what you like from the bible meaning you must agree some of God's word is wrong. (Yes, I've been doing Bible studies thanks to this thread ) I won't even bother with the enforcement slavery and poor treatment of woman that commandments dictate be followed.

2. If God created us in his image, or we are intelligently designed then why is there evil in this world? Surely a God with an ounce of sense would have known to make us incorruptible and purely good. Oh, but wait, he didn't have the foresight for that. Then he has to comedown in the guise of Jesus and sacrifice himself for something he caused making him not only the perfect cop-out for man's evil doings but a complete asshole to boot. Can I get your take on that, please?

Also, just to add my $.2 on free will. If we didn't have free will and were all set on a course destined for us then why do we blame people for things they do; lock up fraudsters, punish kids for not doing homework, shout at idiots who drive like retards? Clearly, if they had no free will they wouldn't be even half as responsible for their actions as we claim they are, right? Or is it all part of God's plan that little kids get their lives messed up by molesters?

 

[DCP]

If everything is predetermined by God, than what we think is predetermined by God, what we do is predetermined by God. There can be no free will if there is an all knowing god. There is free will, however, so either your god is not all knowing, or he does not exist. I don't see any other taste.

edit
You should, just for giggles, keep track of how often you and your fellow believers do this kind of speculation in scenarios that would make perfect sense in absence of your god.

Like I said, so what if God knows what you going to do tomorrow. You don't, and besides, you can plan what you want to do. Most of the time, what you plan will happen. Has God changed that? No. So you are still and always will be in charge of what you want to say or do. It's your free will, and not Gods. Perhaps watch Bruce Almighty, and you'll understand free will...

@DCP Explain to me what is free will in general, descriptively. Lets put aside the god or religion thing first.

To think freely and do whatever your heart and mind tell you. So, if you think I'm not living my life to your standards, you can think of destroying me, and actually do it.
There is a set standard that we are to live and love by. If we do it by our own standard, well, then a thief can say he is a great person, because he hasn't stolen for 2 months, until he steals soon after. Likewise an adulterer or a liar.

If you want to know Christs standards, and not the 10 commandments, just ask. We would all fail miserably.

@DCP - allow me to bring up to common arguments against God and get your response, please.

1. You seem to believe that the God of the Bible is good, right? And I assuming from what you claim that you believe it to be all truth and take it as literal, right?

Well you must follow your commandments, yes? Like the commandment that states you should take a disobedient child to a place where he will be stoned to death? There is no misinterpreting that, it is what it is. If you follow the commandments of the bible, of which there are over 600 I believe, then you agree that a naughty child should be stoned to death. If you don't believe this then you are simply picking and choosing what you like from the bible meaning you must agree some of God's word is wrong. (Yes, I've been doing Bible studies thanks to this thread ) I won't even bother with the enforcement slavery and poor treatment of woman that commandments dictate be followed.

2. If God created us in his image, or we are intelligently designed then why is there evil in this world? Surely a God with an ounce of sense would have known to make us incorruptible and purely good. Oh, but wait, he didn't have the foresight for that. Then he has to comedown in the guise of Jesus and sacrifice himself for something he caused making him not only the perfect cop-out for man's evil doings but a complete asshole to boot. Can I get your take on that, please?

Also, just to add my $.2 on free will. If we didn't have free will and were all set on a course destined for us then why do we blame people for things they do; lock up fraudsters, punish kids for not doing homework, shout at idiots who drive like retards? Clearly, if they had no free will they wouldn't be even half as responsible for their actions as we claim they are, right? Or is it all part of God's plan that little kids get their lives messed up by molesters?

First problem, know God before trying to understand His word. Christ has never asked to stone anyone. In fact, Christ said, that it would be better if a person who made little children stumble, to tie a millstone around their necks, and throw themselves into the sea. Those children you talk of, have parents. Oh trust me, they will answer for how they have brought up their children.

There is evil in this world, because God told our parents, that if they disobeyed Him, their eyes and hearts would be open to evil and wickedness, as well as, pain, death and suffering.

It's very simple, Gods plan was perfect for us, yet we chose otherwise, and even while He didn't have to jump in and save us, He did so, to portray His love. No other gods can claim any of this.
Man made that plan imperfect, and well, here we are today. Violence and death are getting worse, even with the modern age. I mean, just look at those modern weapons. For what? Money? Power? Fame?

 

[CodeRedR51]

He didn't have to jump in and save us, He did so, to portray His love. No other gods can claim any of this.

By apparently drowning the entire planet?

Oh how loving of him.

 

[GBO Possum]

Sorry, I'm not understanding you here. God is good, and made everything good. He is all knowing.

Thank God for cancer, tape worms, elephantiasis, Ebola, and so on right through to the common cold. And for tsunamis, earthquakes, avalanches, droughts and floods. And all of those things insurance companies call Acts of God.

Yep, all "good". The good god made them all. Thanks.

 

[W3H5]

First problem, know God before trying to understand His word.

How can something be truly understood without knowing what it is? Oh, hey, you should know quantum mechanics before you try understanding it.

Why is it a problem for me to not know God? Do you know God, from that collection of papers bound into a book that was created by man? Yeah, I see the logic in that.

And by his word I assume you mean a collection of unsupported myths penned by a rabble of Jews sometimes around and up to 400 years after the supposed visit from Him? Tosh. Complete tosh.

It's because of your delusional mindset that you will argue on the basis of faith which is belief without evidence rather than agree with the facts, which, by their nature, have been proven facts with as conclusive evidence as can be observed. Do you believe in unicorns? If not then why? I've read a book about them, must be true, right?

Come at us with facts, bro, otherwise you're pissing in the wind.

I sincerely hope you're a troll.

By apparently drowning the entire planet?

Oh how loving of him.

You mean the flood that supposedly wiped out the entire planet except for, you know, the pyramids, Chinese civilization, and other provable historical evidences that were around at the time of this happening?

@DCP - Are you one to argue that the Earth is only 10'000 years old or less despite overwhelming evidence supporting the exact opposite?

Also, why do you not worship me? I could be a God and I have actual evidence of my existence.

 

[dylansan]

It's been claimed that God gave us free will because a world where everyone does good without choice would be boring and meaningless.

What I want to know is, why then is heaven supposed to be so great?

In fact, if heaven is supposed to be the ultimate reward, why didn't God just make that reality and let everyone live in a perfect world?

 

[Sureboss]

Because the control mechanism doesn't work if the reward isn't greater than the reality.

 

[Denur]

Like I said, so what if God knows what you going to do tomorrow. You don't, and besides, you can plan what you want to do. Most of the time, what you plan will happen. Has God changed that? No. So you are still and always will be in charge of what you want to say or do. It's your free will, and not Gods. Perhaps watch Bruce Almighty, and you'll understand free will...

I understand your train of thought and I have seen Bruce Almighty multiple times. If God knows what I will do, then my future actions are already predetermined. Do you agree? If my actions are already predetermined, then free will is just an illusion: what ever I will think or do is already in the books. That is not free will, that is following the script. No room for improvisation.

Also, all life is created by God, is it not? God made my parents conceive me. He allowed that conception; was responsible for it. Do you still agree? If not, than you should have no problem with e.g. abortion. If God created me, than He willingly created a person that will go to Hell (If I don't allow Jesus in my life). That makes your almighty god more evil than the Devil himself.

 

[Imari]

I understand your train of thought and I have seen Bruce Almighty multiple times. If God knows what I will do, then my future actions are already predetermined. Do you agree? If my actions are already predetermined, then free will is just an illusion: what ever I will think or do is already in the books. That is not free will, that is following the script. No room for improvisation.

Also, all life is created by God, is it not? God made my parents conceive me. He allowed that conception; was responsible for it. Do you still agree? If not, than you should have no problem with e.g. abortion. If God created me, than He willingly created a person that will go to Hell (If I don't allow Jesus in my life). That makes your almighty god more evil than the Devil himself.

There's a very interesting thought.

God knows everything that will happen, so God knows who will end up in Hell. God created everyone, including those people that will go to Hell. Therefore a certain proportion of people are purely created by God to fill up Hell.

That is quite evil, making sentient beings simply to put them in eternal torture. That's like having an extra litter of kittens just so that you can fill up the oven. At least the Devil only takes those who have (supposedly) earned it. Which one could argue is a necessary and important role for enforcement, apart from the fact that a lot of the laws are slightly bonkers.

So actually, the Devil is more like a policeman or a prison warden serving under a warped set of laws that are not of his making, and God is up there creating people specifically to fill up the Devil's prison. If I was the Devil I'd be pissed that God was making more work for me.

 

[Exorcet]

To think freely and do whatever your heart and mind tell you. So, if you think I'm not living my life to your standards, you can think of destroying me, and actually do it.
There is a set standard that we are to live and love by. If we do it by our own standard, well, then a thief can say he is a great person, because he hasn't stolen for 2 months, until he steals soon after. Likewise an adulterer or a liar.

If you want to know Christs standards, and not the 10 commandments, just ask. We would all fail miserably.

There is a problem here. God/Jesus can't just say he is great because he lives by his own standards. He's exactly like the thief. Subjective morality can't be used as an absolute. No one is exempt from that rule, not even God.

This leads to an option you left out, that people can decide to do what is right. That is something that is not defined by anyone. It has to be that way or it is subjective and thus meaningless, as you point out.

It's very simple, Gods plan was perfect for us,

It can't be, it failed.

yet we chose otherwise

No, even in the best case for Christianity, two people chose. I certainly did not, I wasn't there. Even if you want to accept that a god that is supposed to be all powerful couldn't fix the problem after it happened, he could have just made Adam and Eve sterile and made the rest of us some other intelligent creature not descended from them so at least we wouldn't be tied up in someone else's business. If you want to say that making Adam and Eve sterile violates free will, so does creating them and putting them in Eden without asking.

and even while He didn't have to jump in and save us

He was responsible given he knew it would happen.

No other gods can claim any of this.

Doing good for human kind? Ahura Mazda, Nanahuatzin. Not that any of the claims matter without proof.

and well, here we are today. Violence and death are getting worse, even with the modern age. I mean, just look at those modern weapons. For what? Money? Power? Fame?

Modern weapons exist to counter modern weapons. That is one way to protect people and deter wrongdoers. As far as violence and death getting worse, that does not fit with longer life expectancy and more and more cures and understanding for illnesses. Leprosy was something a god had to cure in the Bible. Today it's something you get regular treatment for.

 

[BobK]

Like I said, so what if God knows what you going to do tomorrow. You don't, and besides, you can plan what you want to do.

So what you're saying is that we merely have the illusion of free will. It looks to us, subjectively, like free will but it really isn't since it's already known what we'll choose.

 

[Rallywagon]

We've gone over this notion of free will and I wonder, just how free is our will? I'm a fan of Sam Harris, and he has some interesting notions on this subject. First, what do we describe as free will? Being able to think for yourself? To move, speak and act in an undetermined manner? This is where Harris and I agree, when you act out without consideration, then that is not free will. Immediate responses are actions or words done based on impulses influenced by life events, experiences as well as physiological and psychological anomalies. The reason someone who was sexually abused (is that according to God's plan DCP, molested children whom had no choice or free will in the act) has a higher rate of then becoming a monster themselves isn't because they freely choose that path, it's because psychologically something broke when the acts were committed against them. There are cases of mass murderers that had tumors growing over a region of the brain that ultimately destroyed their ability to even comprehend right from wrong. Would that be part of god's plan too? Even word vomit is outside of free will. When you are I a heated debate and your are not taking time to consider the things you are saying. Hell, just in normal, everyday conversation, you don't take the time.to consider your words or thoughts or where they came from, you just say them. That I do not believe is free will. They are all done subconsciously, based off experiences and other factors outside of your control.
Now, where I differ from Harris is that I believe we can exert free will by stepping back and taking the time to consider and think things through. I believe Harris would maintain that this is just a false notion as you don't pick the thoughts that pop up in your head.

 

[DCP]

Thank God for cancer, tape worms, elephantiasis, Ebola, and so on right through to the common cold. And for tsunamis, earthquakes, avalanches, droughts and floods. And all of those things insurance companies call Acts of God.

Yep, all "good". The good god made them all. Thanks.

You can thank you parents for that. Now that you know you will die, you can thank God for giving you an option not to die in your sin, and perish for all eternity. If God is True and Just as He says, well then, if He gives the option for eternal life, well do expect the option for eternal death. Choice is yours, believe it or not.

How can something be truly understood without knowing what it is? Oh, hey, you should know quantum mechanics before you try understanding it.

Why is it a problem for me to not know God? Do you know God, from that collection of papers bound into a book that was created by man? Yeah, I see the logic in that.

And by his word I assume you mean a collection of unsupported myths penned by a rabble of Jews sometimes around and up to 400 years after the supposed visit from Him? Tosh. Complete tosh.

It's because of your delusional mindset that you will argue on the basis of faith which is belief without evidence rather than agree with the facts, which, by their nature, have been proven facts with as conclusive evidence as can be observed. Do you believe in unicorns? If not then why? I've read a book about them, must be true, right?

Come at us with facts, bro, otherwise you're pissing in the wind.

I sincerely hope you're a troll.



You mean the flood that supposedly wiped out the entire planet except for, you know, the pyramids, Chinese civilization, and other provable historical evidences that were around at the time of this happening?

@DCP - Are you one to argue that the Earth is only 10'000 years old or less despite overwhelming evidence supporting the exact opposite?

Also, why do you not worship me? I could be a God and I have actual evidence of my existence.

We've been through this "come with the facts thing" already. One set of evidence, many different theories. The one you follow is the one you take to your grave. It's all about free choice. As an individual, you always think your choice is best. I choose God, because His way is perfect. I could never go wrong.

Yes, I also agree that it is not over 10000 years old. We'll throw arguments all day long, but the most important question will remain, do you really want to die in your sins?

It's been claimed that God gave us free will because a world where everyone does good without choice would be boring and meaningless.

What I want to know is, why then is heaven supposed to be so great?

In fact, if heaven is supposed to be the ultimate reward, why didn't God just make that reality and let everyone live in a perfect world?

Because it must be a choice. Why doesn't choice soak in here with this question?
Do you want to go to heaven? Yes, well, then ask how. How, and why Jesus?
Well, all other religions make it easy. Just do good, and your bads will be wiped away. Do good by who's standards?

Why is the Bibles way different? Well duh..!!

I understand your train of thought and I have seen Bruce Almighty multiple times. If God knows what I will do, then my future actions are already predetermined. Do you agree? If my actions are already predetermined, then free will is just an illusion: what ever I will think or do is already in the books. That is not free will, that is following the script. No room for improvisation.

Also, all life is created by God, is it not? God made my parents conceive me. He allowed that conception; was responsible for it. Do you still agree? If not, than you should have no problem with e.g. abortion. If God created me, than He willingly created a person that will go to Hell (If I don't allow Jesus in my life). That makes your almighty god more evil than the Devil himself.

God didn't create you the way you are now. You chose to become what you are today, because you could be anything else you wanted. Can you still change? That's up to you. If you blame your parents, well then that's even worse, because you seeking self pity. The bible tells us of self pity people.

Also, if God knows your will, that's shouldn't phase you, because you don't know if you will choose to be saved tomorrow. Like I say, if you say you are born the way you are, then it's self pity.

We've gone over this notion of free will and I wonder, just how free is our will? I'm a fan of Sam Harris, and he has some interesting notions on this subject. First, what do we describe as free will? Being able to think for yourself? To move, speak and act in an undetermined manner? This is where Harris and I agree, when you act out without consideration, then that is not free will. Immediate responses are actions or words done based on impulses influenced by life events, experiences as well as physiological and psychological anomalies. The reason someone who was sexually abused (is that according to God's plan DCP, molested children whom had no choice or free will in the act) has a higher rate of then becoming a monster themselves isn't because they freely choose that path, it's because psychologically something broke when the acts were committed against them. There are cases of mass murderers that had tumors growing over a region of the brain that ultimately destroyed their ability to even comprehend right from wrong. Would that be part of god's plan too? Even word vomit is outside of free will. When you are I a heated debate and your are not taking time to consider the things you are saying. Hell, just in normal, everyday conversation, you don't take the time.to consider your words or thoughts or where they came from, you just say them. That I do not believe is free will. They are all done subconsciously, based off experiences and other factors outside of your control.
Now, where I differ from Harris is that I believe we can exert free will by stepping back and taking the time to consider and think things through. I believe Harris would maintain that this is just a false notion as you don't pick the thoughts that pop up in your head.

Don't miss the point. Gods plan was to save you from your destruction. Molested children, and every kind of evil is mans doing. Why have a child you can't keep or look after.
Also, all will fail miserably trying blame God for their own mess and mistakes.
A true and just God said do not eat from the tree of knowledge and of good and evil.
Well, if you did, then expect to have every kind of knowledge, every kind of good, and every kind of evil. WHY? well, because that's the choice you (our parents past) made.

Should we hate them for their mistakes? No, because that is what forgiveness is all about.

You guys shouldn't be making up these pointless excuses, but instead question why the first two humans disobeyed their Creator, and how you, as an individual, can avoid ending up like them.

Also, trying to speak for someone elses decisions they make is even worse.
The bible says God judges by the heart and mind, and not the outside appearance. Only God will know if people with brain tumors were sincere about their actions, or not. A Perfect Holy Judge will know exactly how to judge, and the person ending up wherever, will know exactly why they deserved to end up there.

The bible says God detests the proud. Guess what. The proud have too much pride to judge their hearts according to Gods standards. Fittingly so, the devil fell like lightening because of pride, and fittingly so, those like him will end up with him by choice.

 

[W3H5]

We've been through this "come with the facts thing" already. One set of evidence, many different theories. The one you follow is the one you take to your grave.

But as somebody without a religion in my life I don't have to have a solid set of beliefs. I can and will change my mind whenever I please. What I take to the grave is neither here nor there, because once I'm dead I'm worm food and couldn't care less about anything. Dead is dead.

but the most important question will remain, do you really want to die in your sins?

Sins? What sins? I'm a pretty good person morally, I don't need 'sins' explained in a fantasy story to know right from wrong. Besides, the sins you talk about are still viewed from one perspective (that of the Bible) and are an opinion on morality, an opinion which is mostly outdated.

Are you saying if you didn't have the bible you would kill, steal and rape? Of course you wouldn't because you have a sense of morality. Most good people try not to do things they wouldn't want done to them, religious or not.

If I don't believe in your silly idea of sin then how on earth does that bother me when I dead?

 

[Denur]

God didn't create you the way you are now.

How hard is it to even answer a few simple questions. Just a yes or no to each and a little reasoning behind those answers.

 

[Rallywagon]

@DCP OK, so, right, lets blame pestilence, disease, flood and famine on our sinful parents and grandparents? Get out of here man. Your god of the gaps has no power here. "Only God will know if people with brain tumors were sincere about their actions, or not." So you admit that your God mames and kills innocent people, that's progress at least.
What I find kind of repulsive here with your notions is that it seems you believe that a child whom was molested is somehow responsible or deserving of abuse because of something someone somewhere in his family has done, and if not then its because of the original sin of man. That is gross.
And speaking of Adam and Eve. I know you don't believe in evolution, but you have to know how seriously flawed the idea we all came from one breeding pair of humans. Look into all of the health and mental problems that arise from inbreeding within the royal lines of Medieval Europe.
Also, I don't blame god for a thing. I don't believe in god.

 

[Imari]

Because it must be a choice.

Why must it be a choice, exactly? I mean, saying it doesn't make it so.

Unless you write a book about it.

You guys shouldn't be making up these pointless excuses, but instead question why the first two humans disobeyed their Creator, and how you, as an individual, can avoid ending up like them.

How about questioning why modern day humans continue to be punished for the actions of some great-to-the-nth-degree ancestor, if forgiveness is such a big deal?

Why are we supposed to forgive them, but God is absolutely never ever going to let that one go? Talk about setting an awful example.

"Hi, I'm God. I expect you to forgive all others, including the people responsible for getting you into this mess. But I'm not going to forgive them, or forgive you for their mistakes which I will continue to blame on you unless you do exactly what you're told."

Do you find that your brain hurts from all the doublethink, or does it just come naturally?

 

[BobK]

Choice is yours, believe it or not.
...
free choice.
...
a choice.
...
You chose
...
you will choose
...
the choice you (our parents past) made.

But we do not choose. We just think we do. If it's already known (by God) what our choice will be, then we're just following a pre-ordained script.

 

[Exorcet]

You can thank you parents for that.

Proof?

Now that you know you will die, you can thank God for giving you an option not to die in your sin, and perish for all eternity.

The problem is that God as described is the executioner. Actually worse than that, he is the murderer. He is death, because death and pair requires him to exist (unless he is not all powerful of course).

If God is True and Just as He says, well then, if He gives the option for eternal life, well do expect the option for eternal death. Choice is yours, believe it or not.

The traditional Christian God is demonstrably false, so there is no point in even entertaining if. If we ignore the contradictions you can bring up "if", but then we need to consider the weight of each option. You can follow God or you can choose not to (which can be compressed into one option, but is really a billion billion billion billion options). So if we choose to follow God, how likely are we to be correct? 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000. There is no real reason to even consider it at this point because there is no reason to think of God as true or helpful. Religion tends to condition you to ignore this and falsely assign God as a 50% choice, or worse, a 99% to 100% choice. That's just not how it is until a compelling reason to believe gods exists.

We've been through this "come with the facts thing" already.

It's not likely to stop. That is the important point at the end of the day, not "sin". Sin is nothing, it has no meaning because it assumes things that are not supported by evidence.

One set of evidence, many different theories.

Not all theories are equal. The one that fits the evidence is best. The others are worthless. Your story about God and sin don't fit.

The one you follow is the one you take to your grave. It's all about free choice. As an individual, you always think your choice is best. I choose God, because His way is perfect. I could never go wrong.

If an individual picks their choice because they think it's best, then you're guilty of this and your choice is arbitrary. If individuals can put bias aside and choice what is true, then not picking God is completely valid and possibly correct. There is no need to concern yourself with the grave, it's what happens before then that matter because we know it actually exists.

Yes, I also agree that it is not over 10000 years old. We'll throw arguments all day long, but the most important question will remain, do you really want to die in your sins?

Nothing you've said gives that question any value. Asking that question is the same as asking someone if they're willing to die without the approval of the teddy bear fairy. You cannot assume a conclusion until the premises leading to that conclusion are shown to be sound and true.

Because it must be a choice.

What must be a choice? As it happens I never choose to be born, so God doesn't always respect free will.

However you also dodged the question about heaven. Heaven supposedly is going to be filled with people not capable doing wrong. This goes completely against the free will on Earth arguments.

Earth:
Can't separate good people and evil people because free will
Can't provide direct proof of God because free will

Heaven/Hell:
Forced separation of good and evil people against free will
Constant direct proof of God ignoring the influence of that proof on free will

Earth is a waste of time in the Christian view you are presenting.

Why doesn't choice soak in here with this question?

The question needs meaning to be taken seriously.

Do you want to go to heaven? Yes, well, then ask how. How, and why Jesus?

Is it possible to get to heaven? Look at the evidence. No it's not, then don't bother thinking about.

Well, all other religions make it easy. Just do good, and your bads will be wiped away. Do good by who's standards?

Why is the Bibles way different? Well duh..!!

So the other religions got it right, and Christian is the obvious fallacious outlier? Do you see how you make assumptions and give into bias? That Christianity is different (which I see no proof of at all) means nothing with regard to its accuracy. There is no point in bringing up how unique Christianity is when trying to determine if it's true or not.

God didn't create you the way you are now. You chose to become what you are today, because you could be anything else you wanted.

When did I choose my genetic make up? My birth date? My place of birth? All the major unplanned events in my life?

Some people don't realize it but genes have as much affect on your mind as they do your body. You can't just become a completely different person. Your mind is not completely "sovereign" and independent of reality. If it was, wouldn't that contradict your view of human nature? People would just turn off the will to sin. You claim they can't. So it looks like they can't just choose who they are.

Can you still change? That's up to you. If you blame your parents, well then that's even worse, because you seeking self pity. The bible tells us of self pity people.

You didn't have a problem blaming parents before.

Also, if God knows your will, that's shouldn't phase you, because you don't know if you will choose to be saved tomorrow. Like I say, if you say you are born the way you are, then it's self pity.

Proof please. Assumptions are not true by default.

Don't miss the point. Gods plan was to save you from your destruction. Molested children, and every kind of evil is mans doing. Why have a child you can't keep or look after.
Also, all will fail miserably trying blame God for their own mess and mistakes.
A true and just God said do not eat from the tree of knowledge and of good and evil.
Well, if you did, then expect to have every kind of knowledge, every kind of good, and every kind of evil. WHY? well, because that's the choice you (our parents past) made.

No, I did not make any choice about eating from a tree, so it should not be any of my concern. How is it my fault that God planted a useless tree in a garden knowing it will bring pain and suffering?

You guys shouldn't be making up these pointless excuses, but instead question why the first two humans disobeyed their Creator, and how you, as an individual, can avoid ending up like them.

Again you leave out the most important step, verifying that this story is even relevant. If there is no God, Adam, or Eve, what good is the story?

Also, trying to speak for someone elses decisions they make is even worse.
The bible says God judges by the heart and mind, and not the outside appearance. Only God will know if people with brain tumors were sincere about their actions, or not. A Perfect Holy Judge will know exactly how to judge, and the person ending up wherever, will know exactly why they deserved to end up there.

The Bible is not a reliable source. The attempt at a moral code contained within is also flawed. You'll need to provide reasoning to show why people should take it seriously.

The bible says God detests the proud. Guess what. The proud have too much pride to judge their hearts according to Gods standards. Fittingly so, the devil fell like lightening because of pride, and fittingly so, those like him will end up with him by choice.

So "the proud" can't just choose to change their ways then?

Can you define pride and why it is wrong?

 

[Spurgy 777]

So if we choose to follow God, how likely are we to be correct? 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000.

Bit of a generous number