Do you believe in God?

[Denur]

He knows all things

Does He also know when all things are going to happen in the future?

 

[Imari]

Using all of man kinds inventions is all choice bro. I could have an accident tomorrow if my brakes fail. It's my choice to take that risk.

Which is exactly why it was such a mistake that the infant made the choice to let his parents to use a car. I agree totally, infants are recklessly endangering their futures by flirting with technology. The poverty and misery that they experience through the rest of their life is a direct result of their choices to go against God's word, sometimes even before they've left the womb.

Have you heard about the foetuses these days that are worshipping false gods before they're born? They go to the mosque or temple or whatever with their parents, and have the audacity to pray to other gods and then wonder why everything goes wrong for them after they're born?

The root of their problem is that they chose not to give themselves over to the true Lord and Saviour, but instead have been worshipping false gods with the rest of the heathens since their second trimester.

The worst I find are those with foetal alcohol syndrome. Drinking and partying (or more correctly, communion with friends) can be appropriate in moderation, but the kind of reckless hedonism of a child to that is wasted 24/7 is just wrong. No wonder they can't see the glory that is the Lord our God, and are stuck in lives of misery. If only they could see their mistakes and amend them, but by the time they're born I'm afraid it's far too little, far too late.

 

[DCP]

Lets not forget those that don't have the right to live through abortion.
Parents choice again.
By thinking positively, who knows if one of them was the next brilliant mind to find cure for those deadly diseases.
Someone has got to pay for these wicked acts. Those responsible.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Lets not forget those that don't have the right to live through abortion.
Parents choice again.

Most abortions are still fish, read up on evolution again.

By thinking positively, who knows if one of them was the next brilliant mind to find cure for those deadly diseases.

As facetious as it is you know the reverse is "what if one was another Hitler"? That's ignoring the fact that you seem to think prayer is as effective as doctors...

Someone has got to pay for these wicked acts. Those responsible.

Very judgemental, your brand of Christianity. Very.

 

[Liquid]

By thinking positively, who knows if one of them was the next brilliant mind to find cure for those deadly diseases.
Someone has got to pay for these wicked acts. Those responsible.

Ridiculous. These diseases were created by god, according to what you believe. Let's thank him for children with bone cancer.

Doubly ridiculous. Using your logic, an abortion could also preemptively eliminate the next Stalin/Pot/Il-Sung/Amin/Heydrich. Therefore, it's a good thing.

Also, it's not always "the parent's choice". Sometimes there is no choice. Wrongly, I stress. However this is drifting off topic. There is an appropriate thread to discuss abortion.

 

[Imari]

Someone has got to pay for these wicked acts. Those responsible.

I agree completely. Those wicked foetuses can and should pay with their wicked lives.

 

[Denur]

Does He also know when all things are going to happen in the future?

@DCP I'd like an answer to this question. Let me help you by listing the possible answers:

A: Yes
B: No
C: Irrelevant, the god of the Bible does not exist

If you choose A, then there is no true free will, because everything is predetermined already.
And this quote from Genesis makes no sense:

God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

An all knowing god wouldn't have to look, it would know beforehand it would be good.
If you choose B, then no biblical prophecy has any meaning.
If you choose C, well, welcome to the real world.

 

[FoRiZon]

I agree completely. Those wicked foetuses can and should pay with their wicked lives.

Or, since god created everything......

 

[Imari]

Or, since god created everything......

You're going to need to finish that sentence. I'm not psychic.

 

[FoRiZon]

You're going to need to finish that sentence. I'm not psychic.

Ummm. Gods fault?

Sorry. Im very bit religious Not really fully against religion. Just some people who get too far.

 

[Imari]

Ummm. Gods fault?

Sorry. Im very bit religious Not really fully against religion. Just some people who get too far.

But God is infinitely good and great. God cannot do evil. So if God makes the plague and mass murderers and wicked babies, he's doing it all for good and someone else will have to take the blame for anything evil that might arise or occur.

Definitely the evil foetuses.

 

[dylansan]

@DCP I'd like an answer to this question. Let me help you by listing the possible answers:

Good luck. Making things so simple never seems to help @DCP out. It's almost as if spelling out the answers makes it harder to make up some nonsense that doesn't explain anything.

I'm still waiting for a response to this one:

@DCP Do you remember when I asked you if you could explain how scientists managed to predict the discovery of a fossil dated between whales and 47 million year old creatures, which had features in between both? AKA the picture halfway down this page.

I remember you said you couldn't explain it, and that was the end of it. The fact that you have probably never thought anything of it since then shows you aren't interested in the truth. If you don't even attempt to explain the things which contradict your convictions, how can you expect others to be open minded when these contradictions are what holds us back?

The way I see it, there are only a couple of explanations for how scientists are able to consistently make correct predictions based on their theories on a regular basis.

A. God is on the side of the scientists, and helps them make discoveries (despite the fact that many of these discoveries contradict the bible)

B. Scientists are psychic, and use that ability to predict future discoveries so they can seem smarter than they really are.

C. Scientists actually know what they're doing, and the theories they create are actually useful descriptions of how the world really works.

Which is it?

 

[Denur]

Good luck. Making things so simple never seems to help @DCP out. It's almost as if spelling out the answers makes it harder to make up some nonsense that doesn't explain anything.

It does make it harder for @DCP and the likes of him. His brain is not able to cope with any kind of logic that goes against his religion. It makes him (figuratively) put his fingers in his ears and go "la la la la". Some get cured, some don't. I don't think @DCP ever will, he's too far gone.

 

[RalliArt/////]

Does He also know when all things are going to happen in the future?

@DCP I'd like an answer to this question. Let me help you by listing the possible answers:

A: Yes
B: No
C: Irrelevant, the god of the Bible does not exist
If you choose A, then there is no true free will, because everything is predetermined already.
And this quote from Genesis makes no sense:
An all knowing god wouldn't have to look, it would know beforehand it would be good.
If you choose B, then no biblical prophecy has any meaning.
If you choose C, well, welcome to the real world.

Answer D: Selective foresight.

 

[BobK]

I'm still waiting for a response to this one:

Welcome to the growing list of people who've asked a question which @DCP has completely ignored.

 

[Azuremen]

This was recently built near me:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The amount of money they spent on that disgusts me. It could have gone to things that actually mean something. And imagine the property taxes they should have to pay as well on it and where that money could be put to better use.

Eh, donated money at a clearly defined rate certainly beats trying to figure out how much the government spent out of tax dollars on some random admin building.

 

[Rallywagon]

I mean, I am still waiting on an answer for this.

I am not a follower of any religion, nor a believer in a god. If there was some sort it f creator, I think it more likely to have been an alien species of some sort. This at least is more logical than all omni all of that being that lives in a different dimension (cause, obviously heaven isn't actually above the clouds as people in the ISS can attest) who once upon a time performed miraculous magic left, right and center in a world completely devoid of magic.
I also strongly contest the notion that spiritually is the sole stomping ground of religion. Spirituality and enlightenment are notions that do not require subservience to a master, real or fake.
Now, what I have always been curious about is how do the faithful reconcile the bible? If you follow it literally, how do you on good conscience live with yourself in light of quite a bit of uncivilized rhetoric and a slew of contradictions?
To the opposite, if you cherry pick only the "uplifting" verses, don't follow the crap and feel it's open to interpretation, what is the point of following it at all? If this book, that is supposed to have come from gods prophets and messiahs based off the knowledge bestowed upon them from their masterful, all knowing, seeing present creator, is crappy enough that you have to ignore a good portion of it due to its outlandishness, how do you not question the rest?

And that was too any theologian. Substitute the bible for most any holy text. Amounts to the same issues.

 

[Imari]

I mean, I am still waiting on an answer for this.

And that was too any theologian. Substitute the bible for most any holy text. Amounts to the same issues.

The answer is cognitive dissonance, but I suspect you want an answer from someone who actually does it as to why they don't think about it too much.

 

[sammy neuman]

Uh, OK. So if you could erase me with a thought, you would and wish you could.
I'm just going to stick with my humanist "live and let live", I think. Maybe it's wrong, but I find it makes for a better community and a happier life than wishing I could go around erasing people.

No, I wouldn't, even if I could. It would be rather petty. Great power should be exercised with great care.

This is the point. Why is belief required? Why is it not enough to wait for something to actually affect you?

No one is required to believe, and my point is that belief-without-proof is replaced by fact after the event, nothing more.

If you need to believe, isn't that just saying that this thing doesn't affect your life in any significant way, and so it really doesn't matter what you think? You can't be wrong.
Not being able to be wrong is a pretty big red flag in my world. If you can't be wrong, there's no sensible way in which you can be right, and the information is totally useless.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but I feel no compulsion to believe based upon a fear of ugly consequences down the road. It has affected my life, and my personal experiences are presented as reasons why I believe, not as reasons why you or anyone else should believe. As for not being able to be wrong, I think that the difference between faith and closed-mindedness is the knowledge that I could be wrong.

We're going to revisit that bit in bold in a moment, so stick with me.

Ok.

Are you suggesting that the simple act of accepting evidence, regardless of its veracity or logical consistency, is a sign of open-mindedness?

Not at all. That would be open-mindlessness. A requirement for critical thinking is a standard to which the subject in question can be compared. This can be a canned philosophy, or something developed independently, but whichever, it needs to at least attempt to be logical and consistent. Objectivism is a good start, because even if I decide to jump off into space, I at least know where I jumped from. I use only my own experiences as reason-to-believe, and they have meaning only to me.

I don't reject testimony itself, I just reject the idea that it should hold an ounce of meaning for anybody other than the testifier. Whatever has happened between you and God on your long walks on the beach is between you and God. Expecting anybody else who wasn't there to take your word that it happened is asking a little much.

Covered above, I think.--

Back to the bolded bit at the start:
If somebody claims to have personally experienced a connection with God, I do not know how closely their claims correspond to the actual nature of God. Nor do I know how closely their perceptions could possibly correspond with an otherwise undetectable extra-dimensional being. Nor do I know how closely their after-the-fact recollection corresponds with what actually happened.
And if I hear about this experience secondhand? Or third? Or one-hundredth? Now I'm so far removed from what actually happened that it would be foolish to invest any belief in it whatsoever. Especially if I'm expected to apply these testimonies in ways that contradict ideas that I have much more concrete reasons to hold.

And I agree.

Critical thinking is not closed-mindedness.

And I agree.

@sammy neuman
...and in fact is the only logical position. There is no objective evidence for an infinite number of potential beliefs, one cannot believe them all. In fact, believing any of them is the definition of irrational (and irrationality is required by faith). How you determine to believe in one of the things you should not believe in from among the infinite number of choices is beyond me.

Because my background is Christian, and because certain experiences meaningful only to myself point to Yahweh.

Once again, lack of evidence for something's existence should result in a lack of belief in something's existence. Lack of evidence for something's non-existence is true of an infinite number of things and CANNOT result in belief of those infinite number of contradictory things.

True, except that I have personal experience that is objective enough for me, and that does not point to an infinite number of things.

To make this concrete, there is no evidence that Yahweh exists. There is also no evidence that Zeus, or Ra, or the great turtle exists. One cannot believe that Yahweh exists and simultaneously believe the Zeus, RA and the great turtle exist. Their mythologies are contradictory. There are an infinite number of mythologies for which there is no evidence of lack of existence. Belief in any of them because of the lack of falsifiability is irrational.

All true, and if I was bothered by the irrationality of it all, and had no personal experience to say differently, I would agree 100%.

 

[Imari]

No, I wouldn't, even if I could. It would be rather petty. Great power should be exercised with great care.

Well, it's nice to know that you think so.

So when I said "So, are we all just meat puppets here to create an illusion for you, the true consciousness?", and you replied "I wish that were true. I would simply unthink you, and you would be gone", what did you actually mean?

Not the obvious, literal meaning of the words, clearly. That would mean that you wished I was a figment of your imagination so that you could unthink me. Which you say is wrong. So perhaps you could reword that so that I can understand what you actually meant.

No one is required to believe, and my point is that belief-without-proof is replaced by fact after the event, nothing more.

I think you've lost the thread of the conversation, possibly because you take weeks between replies.

This started with you claiming that only personal revelation would be sufficient to convince a skeptic of God's existence. I explained that this was incorrect, and clarified what would be necessary for a skeptic to be convinced that God exists. You pointed out that what I described would be a miracle, and therefore belief in God would not be required for the skeptic.

Which was exactly the point I was trying to make. What is necessary for a skeptic to be convinced that God exists is ample evidence that they're not simply relying on belief. Some arbitrary personal revelation will probably not do, and at the very least is not the only thing that would be sufficient.

Of course belief is replaced with facts in that case, a skeptic refuses to accept belief as evidence of God's existence. That's kind of what makes them a skeptic, by definition. If they just accepted anything and everything, then they wouldn't be skeptical.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but I feel no compulsion to believe based upon a fear of ugly consequences down the road. It has affected my life, and my personal experiences are presented as reasons why I believe, not as reasons why you or anyone else should believe. As for not being able to be wrong, I think that the difference between faith and closed-mindedness is the knowledge that I could be wrong.

Given what you've said earlier, in the case of something like a miracle happening, belief is replaced by fact.
If you believe, then there are no miracles happening. If miracles had happened then you wouldn't believe, you'd know.
If there are no miracles happening, then there's no absolute way in which God is actually changing your life. It's all in your head.
If God isn't actually affecting your life, it doesn't matter at all whether you believe in Him or not.

But that doesn't apply to you, because you've had personal experiences.

If you have had personal experiences, then they should be reasons why you know God exists. Belief doesn't come into it any more, as you pointed out. Belief-without-proof is replaced by fact after the event, in your own words.

Or else, you're being a good scientist and accepting that there are potentially multiple explanations for your observations and experiences. You can go with the one that seems to be most correct given the information at the time, but be willing to change your mind later if appropriate observations are made that indicate you should.

If that's the case, what would convince you that you're wrong? The knowledge that you could be wrong is completely worthless unless you're willing to act on it if appropriate.

 

[W3H5]

Like many before you, you fail to understand the very beginning.

Like many before you, you fail to understand reality.

 

[DCP]

@DCP I'd like an answer to this question. Let me help you by listing the possible answers:

A: Yes
B: No
C: Irrelevant, the god of the Bible does not exist

If you choose A, then there is no true free will, because everything is predetermined already.
And this quote from Genesis makes no sense:
An all knowing god wouldn't have to look, it would know beforehand it would be good.
If you choose B, then no biblical prophecy has any meaning.
If you choose C, well, welcome to the real world.

Sorry, I'm not understanding you here. God is good, and made everything good. He is all knowing.
He knew man would rebel, yet gave him the benefit to do as he pleased. This is why man is pleased to do both good and evil. He makes the choice himself. Do you have a free will today? Can you do whatever you want? Yes I'm sure.

Can you choose to have continued evil thoughts in your heart, and get punished for it? Yes you can. You have a free choice, just like every other human being. Have you inherited some of these things from your previous generations, including sickness etc? Perhaps.

Can you break those chains? Yes. Will you use your free will to do so by putting your trust in Christ? Perfectly your free choice. No ones' forcing you.

Like many before you, you fail to understand reality.

Well well come to my world as well. The reality that we have to die, and that we will stand in judgment. The reality that our brains are intelligently designed.

 

[Com Fox]

Sorry, I'm not understanding you here. God is good, and made everything good. He is all knowing.
He knew man would rebel, yet gave him the benefit to do as he pleased. This is why man is pleased to do both good and evil. He makes the choice himself. Do you have a free will today? Can you do whatever you want? Yes I'm sure.

Can you choose to have continued evil thoughts in your heart, and get punished for it? Yes you can. You have a free choice, just like every other human being. Have you inherited some of these things from your previous generations, including sickness etc? Perhaps.

Can you break those chains? Yes. Will you use your free will to do so by putting your trust in Christ? Perfectly your free choice. No ones' forcing you.



Well well come to my world as well. The reality that we have to die, and that we will stand in judgment. The reality that our brains are intelligently designed.

If he gave us the free will to choose all the "wrong" things, I doubt that is him making "everything good"

 

[DCP]

If he gave us the free will to choose all the "wrong" things, I doubt that is him making "everything good"

For the first 2 years of your life, do you choose any "wrong" things?
If so, are you born that way?

 

[Imari]

Can you break those chains? Yes. Will you use your free will to do so by putting your trust in Christ? Perfectly your free choice. No ones' forcing you.

It's odd that you still don't see how someone saying "you can do whatever you want, but if you don't follow my rules I'm going to make sure that you're tortured forever" is blackmail.

If someone told you to believe in Allah and become a practising Muslim or they'd kill your family, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't describe that as a free choice. Maybe you would.

 

[Com Fox]

For the first 2 years of your life, do you choose any "wrong" things?
If so, are you born that way?

You easily can, while someone that young doesn't have the process of what is right or wrong, I know that people at that age can do wrong things

but having any sort of ability for choosing "wrong" things wouldn't be considered good creation. It's like if I made a robot that had the will to make bad and wrongful decisions, the invention would be disastrous as it could even have the potential to kill innocent life, and the same could applied about God creating life, meaning his creations are disastrous since we can choose to do bad things, make disasters, ruin peoples lives and even turn against God himself.

 

[DCP]

It's odd that you still don't see how someone saying "you can do whatever you want, but if you don't follow my rules I'm going to make sure that you're tortured forever" is blackmail.

If someone told you to believe in Allah and become a practising Muslim or they'd kill your family, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't describe that as a free choice. Maybe you would.

You miss the point again. You don't follow Gods rules because you have to. First you need to know God, then you will realize why you want to follow His ways, and not live in sin.

Oh, and Christians are always persecuted for our faith in Christ. You see, we know that flesh is temporary. Anyone is free to kill my family and I because of what we believe, but we will stand for Christ till the end. You should question those for why they kill Christians for their innocent belief.

Religion kills their enemies, while Christ laid down His life for His enemies, and likewise, for you and I.

You easily can, while someone that young doesn't have the process of what is right or wrong, I know that people at that age can do wrong things

but having any sort of ability for choosing "wrong" things wouldn't be considered good creation. It's like if I made a robot that had the will to make bad and wrongful decisions, the invention would be disastrous as it could even have the potential to kill innocent life, and the same could applied about God creating life, meaning his creations are disastrous since we can choose to do bad things, make disasters, ruin peoples lives and even turn against God himself.

So are you saying it's better that God created robots that don't do bad things?
Basically free will is not a good thing, right? So you blame free will for the all the "wrong" things in this world, yet you praise free will for all the "right"? Would you be happy to wake up every morning and worship God, all the days of your life, ONLY? Religion does that, not a relationship with Christ.

God made it very clear to Adam, that we will perish, if we disobey a simple instruction. Stop blaming God for your fathers and mothers rebellion in the garden, but instead, look to forgive them. It's all about forgiveness and love.

 

[Liquid]

You miss the point again. You don't follow Gods rules because you have to. First you need to know God, then you will realize why you want to follow His ways, and not live in sin.

Oh, and Christians are always persecuted for our faith in Christ. You see, we know that flesh is temporary. Anyone is free to kill my family and I because of what we believe, but we will stand for Christ till the end. You should question those for why they kill Christians for their innocent belief.

Religion kills their enemies, while Christ laid down His life for His enemies, and likewise, for you and I.

Are you ignoring the vast sections of history where Christians slaughtered innumerable native populations for their "unchristian" morality and beliefs in other gods?

Or just the parts where Christians did the same to other Christians for having the wrong type of Christiantiy?

Nothing, and I mean nothing, you say comes anywhere close to being an ultimate or immutable truth. What you claim to be true, what you claim to be correct, is not supported by the actions of other followers.

 

[Com Fox]

You miss the point again. You don't follow Gods rules because you have to. First you need to know God, then you will realize why you want to follow His ways, and not live in sin.

Oh, and Christians are always persecuted for our faith in Christ. You see, we know that flesh is temporary. Anyone is free to kill my family and I because of what we believe, but we will stand for Christ till the end. You should question those for why they kill Christians for their innocent belief.

Religion kills their enemies, while Christ laid down His life for His enemies, and likewise, for you and I.



So are you saying it's better that God created robots that don't do bad things?
Basically free will is not a good thing, right? So you blame free will for the all the "wrong" things in this world, yet you praise free will for all the "right"? Would you be happy to wake up every morning and worship God, all the days of your life, ONLY? Religion does that, not a relationship with Christ.

God made it very clear to Adam, that we will perish, if we disobey a simple instruction. Stop blaming God for your fathers and mothers rebellion in the garden, but instead, look to forgive them. It's all about forgiveness and love.

I was never saying it was a bad thing (I honestly like things that are flawed, like us, it is what makes us, us), but if an all powerful being only created good, creating something that can potentially do bad isn't good, now is it?

The last paragraph made not sense to our discussion to me. Can you elaborate on it?

 

[DCP]

I was never saying it was a bad thing (I honestly like things that are flawed, like us, it is what makes us, us), but if an all powerful being only created good, creating something that can potentially do bad isn't good, now is it?

The last paragraph made not sense to our discussion to me. Can you elaborate on it?

The last paragraph is key. If Adam and Eve remained obedient, we wouldn't have the problem we've had. Every kind of good, along with every kind of evil. There is nothing hidden. What we see is what we get, from a True and Just Creator. Likewise the 2nd realm, which possibly CERN may discover and open up.

Free will caused it, hence why I ask you, do you think free will is a good thing or bad thing?
Cain, Hitler, Stalin, Osama, Napoleon all have the same free will. Could they have used it for good, or did they have to use it for bad?

God is saying, "Children, I gave you everything, but it's not enough. Go for it, but I promise, it will not give you peace. It will not satisfy you either. Even if you try every other option you can think of, I'm still waiting here with arms open. If you die though, then it's too late, because you can't come back and change it"