Do you believe in God?
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Danoff
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Really?
I note how you cut out the other bit about slaughtering the rest of the family.
"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man". So the part where we kill all the male children is perfectly cool with you. You're wondering where the raping occurs.... it occurs in the "save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man" part. If that's not sexual slavery I don't know what is. I'm sure you'll twist that phrase into whatever it is that you want it to be, but it's very plain... do what you will with the virgin girls. And if you think that's out of bounds for the OT, I'll refer you to the part where the innocent boys are just rounded up and slaughtered.
This is your moral compass right here. It's perfectly encapsulated in that piece. Kill your enemies, torture anyone who dares not to love God for an eternity in a lake of fire, kill innocent children, rape the girls, stone the gays, force rape victims to marry their rapists (yup, that's in there too). This is your god. Sure Christ brokered a new deal... with that blood thirsty savage. This is your perfect morality. This is your moral superiority. Bask in it.
How is offering a sacrifice to gods secular?
Yup. Logic and education are the enemy. Definitely do not adhere to human knowledge and reason.
No. Not a chance*.
*I say this with the same certainty that I say the sun will rise tomorrow morning.
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- GTAS_PEETHAM
Did you ever stop to ask, where are the fathers and mothers of these children to bring them up in the way a loving parent should? Do you ever ask how some parents with nothing, were able to bring up their children and not leave them to suffer?
Stop trying to blame a God you don't believe exists, but rather, try to ask why the big bang made everything you see, suffer and die, offering no hope to the future.
If you are godless, these are the questions you should be asking, and getting answers from those scientists that you get so called smart ideas from.
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This is why a Perfect God who saw man rebel and sin before His Perfectness, would still enter a sinful world, and give those who "choose by free will" a second chance to return to the Perfect world once created.
it is this Perfect God, Yeshua / Jesus Christ, that will be the Perfect Judge at the Great white throne judgment, and put an end to a world that man chose to live in, in the way man wanted to live in.
You either want it, or you don't. There is no in-between.
Where does God command this. Don't miss-take what Moses instructs the people for God.
Like I say, you do the same as Moses, since a Perfect God sees any kind of sin, a sin. That's why He is the Judge, and not you, the fallable human that sins in thought and deed every day.
Saving virgins in your sinful thoughts is rape, then so be your free will thinking. Knock yourself out brother.
Lets see if this will sink in. Mosaic law for the Jews. Are you still with me brother?
Covenant with the Jews. Are you there common ancestor?
Not really no. Parents should teach their children the ways of the Lord. To love their enemies and pray for those who spitefully use them and mock and scoff and them.
If children are suffering, then woe to the parents, since we all know that children don't just pop up, unless it's another small big bang somewhere, anywhere right?
Danoff
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Moses is carrying out God's will.
Bible
They say "women", but they mean children. The women who had slept with a man were executed. That leaves virgin girls. God even helps them divvy up who gets what share of the child sex slaves. I love how God doesn't differentiate between virgin girls and cattle. "set apart as tribute for the Lord one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep". Those are basically fungible in the eyes of the lord.
Except the part where you slaughter innocent male children or capture virgin girls. That part is no problemo.
If he judges slaughtering and raping innocent children as moral, I'll take my judgement over his any day of the week.
This was covered above by @huskeR32
And Jews are... what... not people? Let me see if this will sink in, this is your God instructing that these acts be done to innocent people.
...and woe to God who considers it just. If you disagree with God that these children should suffer the sins of their parents, you might want to re-think the whole thing.
Scaff
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Are we to understand from this that only 'bad', non-godly parents would result in children suffering in that manner?
As that would be the only way to read your reply and quite frankly as a result its both insulting to the millions of parents the world over who do everything they can to protect them and utterly inane. These are parents who find themselves in situations that they have no control over and are not responsible for. Your God does nothing to help them, but rather seems content to allow them to suffer and die.
Why are you attempting to anthropomorphise an event?
No they are not, because its an event not a person, so it makes no sense at all to suggest that.
Oh and the chances are those 'smart ideas' are the reason why you are alive today and most certainly how you are able to waffle nonsense around the globe.
We are a single species, on a rock, in a galaxy at the arse-end of the universe. yet oddly you feel so important that you have to attribute human traits to something that was an event to such a degree that it must be blamed for all the woes of the world!
Their is no plan, no intent to make us suffer; and its only a child like fear of the realisation that the very planet we live on is a speck in the vastness that is the universe that drives people to attempt to make sense of it by attributing its creation to a being that is like us and must have a plan for us.
Given the scale of the universe, not only is it an absurd notion (that the creator of the entire cosmos would only be active in a few thousand square miles of one planet), but one that is utterly unsupported by evidence and stolen from other, older religions.
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- 7,177
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I fail to see what the scale of the Universe has to do with the existence of God or why it should prove, disprove, make rational or indeed absurd the notion that God would care for us in this miserable rock at the arse-end of the Universe.
Must be the thickness of the nonsense waffling I do ...
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Strictly speaking, God could have put a lot of empty space aside when he created everything. It does seem kind of odd that a god obsessed with giving things purpose and creating plans would do that though. The fact that God never addresses all that space in his communication with us is also strange and supports the idea that "God" is really just the imagination of people that only knew so much.
It's not a definite proof against a higher being or something, but it does call into question some of the claims made by various religions like Christianity.
Scaff
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Re-read what I actually said please.
My main point was that given the vastness of the universe it is absurd to me that his direct presence has only been made know (based on the texts of the faith) to a bronze age tribe in a tiny part of the entire planet.
That a being that created the entire universe should exhibit an innacurate knowledge of that universe in these communications (and for that matter the planet itself) and seemingly (based on the texts) focus all his attention on it is only slightly less absurd.
The scale of the universe, its existence over time in relation to the claims made in the text are directly relevant, as the later is simply not supported by the factual evidence of the former. As far as a hypothesis goes, God creating the universe is not supported and his absence in that sheer volume is a factor.
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- 7,177
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Sorry but even though I'm reading a (to me) foreign language and assuming something might be lost for me, I still can't see what you're on about with that specific comment.
I'll tell you that I agree it makes no sense to blame the big bang for anything. An event is an event, period. Has no conscience, no purpose, no knowledge, no plan.
However, I don't agree that you can draw any conclusion (about God's existence) from the size of the Universe.
It's funny that I have heard - about faith - this:
a) People with faith in a Creator still think the Universe revolves around the Earth, when the Universe it is so vast and we are totally meaningless;
b) People with faith in a Creator have only "... a child like fear of the realisation that the very planet we live on is a speck in the vastness that is the universe that drives people to attempt to make sense of it by attributing its creation to a being that is like us and must have a plan for us ..." (quoting you now)
So, if I get this right, for a theist, the belief in God considering the size of the Universe can either be:
a) because he feels so important in a Earth centered small Universe that he thinks himself "son of God" - the ignorant fool theory
b) because he feels so irrelevant in the vastness of the Universe that he is afraid of the void and needs a father figure to sleep well at night - and that's the insecure fool theory
EDIT - Just seen your edit, glad you elaborated a little. I see facepalms above so I'm not going to annoy anyone with further discussion. But I will add that I have no problems with God's slow and almost hidden approach to mankind, through an abscure tribe, or indeed a man. I much prefer this to some sort of grandstanding.
Catholics (and I guess generally speaking for all christians, although I don't know much about protestant and orthodox churches and what each of the many of them teach) try to have reason and logic present in their belief so, apart from the belief itself - based purely in unproven faith - in everything else we do see God as a being with purpose, a being that makes us distinguish good and bad (simplifying a lot here).
That's something vital to us, we may not fully understand everything, but God's will is never to be taken as if it could never be understood. We must try, and seek, the logic in the design because we believe there's one (Benedict XVI got himself in a lot of trouble because of this fundamental belief and how it differs from the Muslim one in this particular point).
I'll tell you that I agree it makes no sense to blame the big bang for anything. An event is an event, period. Has no conscience, no purpose, no knowledge, no plan.
However, I don't agree that you can draw any conclusion (about God's existence) from the size of the Universe.
It's funny that I have heard - about faith - this:
a) People with faith in a Creator still think the Universe revolves around the Earth, when the Universe it is so vast and we are totally meaningless;
b) People with faith in a Creator have only "... a child like fear of the realisation that the very planet we live on is a speck in the vastness that is the universe that drives people to attempt to make sense of it by attributing its creation to a being that is like us and must have a plan for us ..." (quoting you now)
So, if I get this right, for a theist, the belief in God considering the size of the Universe can either be:
a) because he feels so important in a Earth centered small Universe that he thinks himself "son of God" - the ignorant fool theory
b) because he feels so irrelevant in the vastness of the Universe that he is afraid of the void and needs a father figure to sleep well at night - and that's the insecure fool theory
EDIT - Just seen your edit, glad you elaborated a little. I see facepalms above so I'm not going to annoy anyone with further discussion. But I will add that I have no problems with God's slow and almost hidden approach to mankind, through an abscure tribe, or indeed a man. I much prefer this to some sort of grandstanding.
Catholics (and I guess generally speaking for all christians, although I don't know much about protestant and orthodox churches and what each of the many of them teach) try to have reason and logic present in their belief so, apart from the belief itself - based purely in unproven faith - in everything else we do see God as a being with purpose, a being that makes us distinguish good and bad (simplifying a lot here).
That's something vital to us, we may not fully understand everything, but God's will is never to be taken as if it could never be understood. We must try, and seek, the logic in the design because we believe there's one (Benedict XVI got himself in a lot of trouble because of this fundamental belief and how it differs from the Muslim one in this particular point).
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Scaff
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Now aside from the fact that the use of the term 'fool' is your own and not mine then yes both of these possible explanations are valid from an anthropological perspective.
A need to believe that we are not alone, a need to consider ourselves important and central (or why procreate), a need to explain what we are not yet able to explain and a need have a shield against 'the dark'.
Are they the only two possible explanations for the existence of religion? No.
Are they two possible explanations for the existence of religion? Yes.
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You're thinking small. For a being with no boundaries, the ridiculously short life you have here on Earth doesn't mean much, there's all eternity to engage you and hear from you all those great things you think about the universe and humanity.
Unless, of course, there's a point in leaving you stranded here with no contact for a couple of decades. With just an hint that there may be more to all of this than meets the eye or science can prove/disprove. And see what you do with the time that is given to you here.
Unless, of course, there's a point in leaving you stranded here with no contact for a couple of decades. With just an hint that there may be more to all of this than meets the eye or science can prove/disprove. And see what you do with the time that is given to you here.
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Don't you see? - It's just a giant science experiment. Like keeping bugs in a jar. You give them the basics for living, but you already know how the experiment will end. Sooner or later they'll either die through lack of food, water or clean air, or just kill each other over the few resources they have at their disposal, since you suppress their environment and want to explore - or you'll just kill them yourself through boredom or spite.
BobK
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But that's the thing. God already knows, in excruciating detail, exactly what is going to happen and when. He knows exactly what they're going to die of, and exactly when to the nanosecond. He also knows in advance if He is going to kill them out of boredom. If He kills them by smooshing them, He knows exactly far each molecule of their bodies will be displaced and He knew this way back when He created the universe in the first place.
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You guys are on a roll and the educated irony in your posts is of the best kind to be found in this thread (I do mean this, I'm tired of sarcasm, much prefer irony). However, that's what YOU are saying, not me. There are two irreconciliable theories in your conversation:
a) God knows what you are going to do so it's all pointless;
b) God doesn't know and this is nothing but a pointless sick experience.
The way I see it, God does not know what we are going to do. Again I must stress that I am a Catholic, so maybe protestants that follow the theories of Calvin or Luther think differently (I just don't know).
Here a piece from a wikipedia entry on how Catholics deal with the subject:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination
a) God knows what you are going to do so it's all pointless;
b) God doesn't know and this is nothing but a pointless sick experience.
The way I see it, God does not know what we are going to do. Again I must stress that I am a Catholic, so maybe protestants that follow the theories of Calvin or Luther think differently (I just don't know).
Here a piece from a wikipedia entry on how Catholics deal with the subject:
wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination
- 7,177
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@BobK I think we both are learning as we discuss. You are possibly from a mainly protestant country therefore know little of Catholics, probably considered some sort of inferior christians, Pope's servants and all that. I am from a -overwhelmingly Catholic country, where protestants are ridiculed as some sort of inferior christians born out of preachers with delusions of grandeur or kings in need of a divorce 
Anyway ... Catholics don't follow predestination, and believe in free will, that's exactly where we think God created us to His image (not sure if this translates well but that's how we say it)
I just googled a bit because I had no idea what is the protestant's view on this particular subject, and still don't know where they stand nowadays, but this (predestination versus free will) was apparently one of the important questions in this early divide between the (catholic) Church and the churches that appeared with the reformation, later called protestants.
Here what I found:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Bondage_of_the_Will
Anyway ... Catholics don't follow predestination, and believe in free will, that's exactly where we think God created us to His image (not sure if this translates well but that's how we say it)
I just googled a bit because I had no idea what is the protestant's view on this particular subject, and still don't know where they stand nowadays, but this (predestination versus free will) was apparently one of the important questions in this early divide between the (catholic) Church and the churches that appeared with the reformation, later called protestants.
Here what I found:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Bondage_of_the_Will
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- huskeR_32
You're not quite answering BobK's question here.
He's asking about omniscience, or the idea that God knows everything. This is an attribute that all major Abrahamic religions hold to be true, Roman Catholicism very much included.
Now, the fact that God is omniscient would actually seem to suggest that you're wrong about free will, and that it's actually just an illusion. But that's not (yet) the question that BobK was raising.
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Ok then, trying to be more specific, according to the Catholic doctrine, God is omniscient, knowing all of past, present and future events.
Again, according to Catholic doctrine, this attribute of God doesn't contend with free will, because the fact that he "knows" doesn't change the fact that "we don't" and therefore it is our choice that matters.
For the masses, that's all you'll get, because as you can read in one of the links I posted above:
I do think - it might be presumption on my part - my free will would be a bit spoiled of meaning if God infalibly knew where it would lead me. And I don't consider myself heretic or against my own religion - nor even reaching Erasmus kind of theologic knowledge - when I think that the Omniscience of God might mean that God knows every conceivable futureand every conceivable outcome of our life. He is God, isn't He? So why believe that He knows one future, when Omniscience may mean that He knows ALL possible futures?
So God knows the past, the present and every possible future. And - most importantly - it's up to us to follow our own path.
On a lighter note, I agree with the screenwriter that created one of the most famous lines of a certain movie green alien, supposed to have the gift of foresight, making him say "Always in motion, the future is"
Again, according to Catholic doctrine, this attribute of God doesn't contend with free will, because the fact that he "knows" doesn't change the fact that "we don't" and therefore it is our choice that matters.
For the masses, that's all you'll get, because as you can read in one of the links I posted above:
wiki on predestination
I do think - it might be presumption on my part - my free will would be a bit spoiled of meaning if God infalibly knew where it would lead me. And I don't consider myself heretic or against my own religion - nor even reaching Erasmus kind of theologic knowledge - when I think that the Omniscience of God might mean that God knows every conceivable futureand every conceivable outcome of our life. He is God, isn't He? So why believe that He knows one future, when Omniscience may mean that He knows ALL possible futures?
So God knows the past, the present and every possible future. And - most importantly - it's up to us to follow our own path.
On a lighter note, I agree with the screenwriter that created one of the most famous lines of a certain movie green alien, supposed to have the gift of foresight, making him say "Always in motion, the future is"
Scaff
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If God is Omniscience then not only does he know all possible futures, but he also knows which one we will chose.Ok then, trying to be more specific, according to the Catholic doctrine, God is omniscient, knowing all of past, present and future events.
Again, according to Catholic doctrine, this attribute of God doesn't contend with free will, because the fact that he "knows" doesn't change the fact that "we don't" and therefore it is our choice that matters.
For the masses, that's all you'll get, because as you can read in one of the links I posted above:
I do think - it might be presumption on my part - my free will would be a bit spoiled of meaning if God infalibly knew where it would lead me. And I don't consider myself heretic or against my own religion - nor even reaching Erasmus kind of theologic knowledge - when I think that the Omniscience of God might mean that God knows every conceivable futureand every conceivable outcome of our life. He is God, isn't He? So why believe that He knows one future, when Omniscience may mean that He knows ALL possible futures?
So God knows the past, the present and every possible future. And - most importantly - it's up to us to follow our own path.
On a lighter note, I agree with the screenwriter that created one of the most famous lines of a certain movie green alien, supposed to have the gift of foresight, making him say "Always in motion, the future is"
If he doesn't then he not Omniscient, as it literally means all knowing, and if he did not know what outcome would be picked then he can't be all knowing.
Arguing that because we don't know however doesn't cut it, as that's not free will either. God knows and as such its already predetermined. God knows which option we will take (or he's not Omniscient) and as such the 'other' choices are an illusion that we can't pick, as if we did then God would once again not be Omniscient.
Even if (as some theologians argue) God chooses to limit himself in this area (which immediately means he's not Omniscient) it doesn't change that he could know (and has always known - just not allowed himself to be aware of it) and the end result is still predetermined in the same way as above.
Either God is Omniscient or we have free-will, but for the two to be true is contradictory.
Its arguably the most fundamental contradiction at the heart of the Abrahamic faiths and no surprise at all that its been the root of many a schism with the various sects in the Abrahamic faiths (and others for that matter).
Of course a much simpler explanation does exist for why this contradiction occurs, and that is its simply a plot hole in a collection of stories, some borrowed and some original works that have been edited, abridged and expanded to the point that they can only contradict themselves (and arguably always have).
BobK
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But that's the thing -- God does infallibly know what your choice will be as well as, of course, where it leads. He would not only know all possible futures, He would also know which one will actually come to pass.Ok then, trying to be more specific, according to the Catholic doctrine, God is omniscient, knowing all of past, present and future events.
Again, according to Catholic doctrine, this attribute of God doesn't contend with free will, because the fact that he "knows" doesn't change the fact that "we don't" and therefore it is our choice that matters.
For the masses, that's all you'll get, because as you can read in one of the links I posted above:
I do think - it might be presumption on my part - my free will would be a bit spoiled of meaning if God infalibly knew where it would lead me. And I don't consider myself heretic or against my own religion - nor even reaching Erasmus kind of theologic knowledge - when I think that the Omniscience of God might mean that God knows every conceivable futureand every conceivable outcome of our life. He is God, isn't He? So why believe that He knows one future, when Omniscience may mean that He knows ALL possible futures?
So God knows the past, the present and every possible future. And - most importantly - it's up to us to follow our own path.
On a lighter note, I agree with the screenwriter that created one of the most famous lines of a certain movie green alien, supposed to have the gift of foresight, making him say "Always in motion, the future is"
The analogy I've used previously is it's like we're following a script -- what we say and do is known (by God) in advance. The fact that we don't know we're following a script doesn't change the fact that we are. Not a perfect analogy, but it gets the point across I think.
EDIT: Treed by Scaff, who makes the point far more persuasively than I did
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