Do you believe in God?

[Sam48]

I'm not putting an end limit on it. This is still accurate by your terms:

Do no wrong for a lifetime and don't accept Jesus = Hell
Murder, rape, steal for a lifetime and accept Jesus at the very end = Heaven

No. As I said before, you may do no wrong for a lifetime, not accept Jesus, and still go to heaven.

So you think all the murderers should go to hell regardless of whether they repent or not? That would be like telling someone they aren't aloud to say sorry. Every murderer/criminal should have a shot at making it to heaven regardless of their actions as long as they realize what they've done, are truly sorry for it, and fully accept God.

 

[Famine]

No. As I said before, you may do no wrong for a lifetime, not accept Jesus, and still go to heaven.

Why's that then? The Bible says that you have to accept Jesus to be granted entry to the Kingdom of Heaven.

So you think all the murderers should go to hell regardless of whether they repent or not?

Again, with the interpretation. Since I don't believe in the existence of either heaven or hell, that's a fascinating way of telling me what I'm thinking.

That would be like telling someone they aren't aloud to say sorry. Every murderer/criminal should have a shot at making it to heaven regardless of their actions as long as they realize what they've done, are truly sorry for it, and fully accept God.

Again, someone who brings nothing but harm to this world is allowed eternal paradise in the next with a single, one-off moment of accepting Jesus - but someone who does not accept Jesus, however beneficial their existence on our planet is denied this. According to your own rules.

 

[Sam48]

Why's that then? The Bible says that you have to accept Jesus to be granted entry to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Some christians, like myself, believe that non believers get a chance to accept Jesus after death, but before heaven or hell. (in purgatory)

Again, with the interpretation. Since I don't believe in the existence of either heaven or hell, that's a fascinating way of telling me what I'm thinking.

It was a question. I just wanted you to pretend there was a heaven and hell for a second.

Again, someone who brings nothing but harm to this world is allowed eternal paradise in the next with a single, one-off moment of accepting Jesus - but someone who does not accept Jesus, however beneficial their existence on our planet is denied this. According to your own rules.

No. As I stated before, non believers can accept Jesus after death, but before heaven or hell. (in purgatory)

 

[Famine]

Some christians, like myself, believe that non believers get a chance to accept Jesus after death, but before heaven or hell. (in purgatory)

And I already addressed that point:

I'm not putting an end limit on it. This is still accurate by your terms:

Do no wrong for a lifetime and don't accept Jesus = Hell
Murder, rape, steal for a lifetime and accept Jesus at the very end = Heaven

If, at the last moment they can possibly choose, they do not accept Jesus/God, they cannot enter Heaven regardless of how good their life has been. If, at the last moment they can possibly choose, they accept Jesus/God, they will enter Heaven regardless of how evil their life has been.

The preceding entire lifetime of experiences, acts and intentions is rendered irrelevant by Christianity. It comes down to "Do you accept Jesus/God" and if the answer is "no", whether on Earth or in Purgatory or any other mythical construct you wish to decide, you will be consigned to an eternity of suffering with rapists, murderers, paedophiles, torturers, genocidal maniacs and James Allen.

That's 75 years of being and doing, all made moot by a single question at the very end. Someone who has done nothing but make others' existences terrible can be given eternal paradise and someone who has done nothing but make others' existences pleasant can be given eternal damnation, because it's all ignored - only the one question matters.

This is what your belief system supports. So I'll ask for a fourth time - does this really make so much sense that you'll put your life behind it?

 

[DK]

It comes down to "Do you accept Jesus/God" and if the answer is "no", whether on Earth or in Purgatory or any other mythical construct you wish to decide, you will be consigned to an eternity of suffering with rapists, murderers, paedophiles, torturers, genocidal maniacs and James Allen.

Which James Allen are you referring to?

 

[Famine]

Seventh on the list.

 

[Joel]

Sam, it doesn't matter if it's Earth or purgatory. If someone who has murdered, stolen, and raped their entire life can "repent" at the last minute and go to Heaven, but somebody who has spent their entire life saving orphans off the street "rejects" God at the last minute, he goes to Hell.


Even if God sends both the murderer and the orphan parent to purgatory, that doesn't change anything. Say that the orphan parent still doesn't "accept" God, but the murderer does. At that point, a murderer ends up in eternal paradise, but the person who has done nothing wrong whatsoever is tortured for all of eternity.

Is it just me, or is that just a bit :censored:ed?

I just can not fathom living my life in service of a God who is such a complete and total conceited dick.

 

[Public'sTwin]

Sam48 and leftywrighty69,

How do you come to terms, personally, with rampant dissent and differing views on what it takes to "be" a Christian, as defined by Christians? Surely if they all claim to be Christians, each giving differing definitions of what it takes to get in to heaven or hell, all must be correct in their opinions - or none are.

And if avoiding the fallacy provided above, then if some are, and some are not, who is to say?

(I can intuit that the answer to that might be "God", but then if we've all corrupted our interpretation of His intent for us, then we're all doomed anyway—unless, of course, we all "accept" Him in the end, right?)

Furthermore, if the Bible is the authority on what it means to be Christian, why are liberties taken with its' interpretation or, why are those interpretations left to a "qualified" few who represent official stances of a particular Church?

Had God existed and intended His Word to be known and revered by man, I would think that He would have provided us with either a definitive text, free of obfuscation, contradictions, and pitfalls of interpretation, or provided no text at all. Writing, after all, is an abstract unit of our own construction.

If the multitudinous reports of the NDE'rs are anything to go by, then "heaven" (or its parlor) is the inevitable destination of all humans, no matter their beliefs or actions in life.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

And this is an excellent point. An experience, as he points out, that shares so much in common among so many—believers and non-believers alike—indicates, to me, a kind of neurological process that is experienced at the point of death, resembling to many the "light at the end of the tunnel".

 

[DK]

Seventh on the list.

What has that James Allen ever done to you? Did you not like his commentary?

 

[homeforsummer]

Sam, it doesn't matter if it's Earth or purgatory. If someone who has murdered, stolen, and raped their entire life can "repent" at the last minute and go to Heaven, but somebody who has spent their entire life saving orphans off the street "rejects" God at the last minute, he goes to Hell.

I believe I asked this question much, much earlier in the thread, and I actually received a mildly satisfactory (though by no means sensible) answer. The person who has done good all their life but not believed in God and Jesus would simply die, rather than go to hell. They would have no afterlife of any sort.

Of course, this still seems like a raw deal if you've been a wonderful person throughout your life, but it makes vaguely more sense than being sent to hell just because you didn't follow in the footsteps of the big beard in the sky.

What has that James Allen ever done to you? Did you not like his commentary?

Whatever answer I could give to that question would be a gross understatement. Apart from the answer I just gave you, which now allows your imagination to come up with something suitably terrible.

 

[Public'sTwin]

The person who has done good all their life but not believed in God and Jesus would simply die, rather than go to hell. They would have no afterlife of any sort.

But who can say whether that's true or not with any level of authority?

It's simply a fact that nobody—nobody—knows what happens to you when you die, until they're dead.

Nonsensical indeed.

 

[Sam48]

I'll get back to all of those when I die. (or not)

 

[Sureboss]

Well, you're one of the special people, so you've got a few hundred millenia to think of an answer.

 

[Danoff]

It's simply a fact that nobody—nobody—knows what happens to you when you die, until they're dead.

I disagree. I think everyone knows what happens when they die - because we have all been dead before. Think about the year 1800, what was that like for you? That's what being dead is like. Think about the year before you were born.You were dead then too. I think you know exactly what happens.

 

[niky]

I disagree. I think everyone knows what happens when they die - because we have all been dead before. Think about the year 1800, what was that like for you? That's what being dead is like. Think about the year before you were born.You were dead then too. I think you know exactly what happens.

1800 was a dark year. I think I had more fun in 1798, but I really don't remember much from that time.

On account of not being alive, mind you.

---

I don't think that works out... to be dead, you technically have to be deprived of life... if you haven't lived, you can't die. Otherwise, it's perfectly plausible way, though depressing, to imagine death.

 

[Danoff]

I don't think that works out... to be dead, you technically have to be deprived of life... if you haven't lived, you can't die. Otherwise, it's perfectly plausible way, though depressing, to imagine death.

Well, I'm sure dying is something a bit different - although I imagine there are some folks who have come back from serious injuries that could tell you a lot about what dying probably feels like. But being dead - that one we've all done. I don't see what's different about what it's like to have been dead for an hour from what it's like to have not been born for an hour.

I actually don't find it depressing. I didn't mind not being born before I was born - I'm sure I will likewise not mind being dead after I've been alive. When you think about it, you've spent an awful lot more time being dead than alive. Billions of years you've been dead - only a tiny fraction of the time have you been living. I find that somewhat comforting actually.

 

[Public'sTwin]

I disagree. I think everyone knows what happens when they die - because we have all been dead before. Think about the year 1800, what was that like for you? That's what being dead is like. Think about the year before you were born.You were dead then too. I think you know exactly what happens.

My point is that there is no evidence to support the idea that we dissolve into nothingness. The only rationale supporting that theory is that, because we lack consciousness after death, it must also be the same experience as before we're even been assembled.

And more specifically, I'm referring to the immediate point-of-death, whereby the User (Haha) actually experiences termination. What that experience constitutes, however, I cannot say.

The experience of brain death is not as black and white as once thought; medical advances have provided rare cases where we've brought back those regarded as permanent vegetables, and though these patients showed zero brain activity in response to stimuli, they reported that they had in fact heard and felt everything around them, to their great disappointment.

Non-life, I think, is not the same as dying.

 

[Danoff]

My point is that there is no evidence to support the idea that we dissolve into nothingness. The only rationale supporting that theory is that, because we lack consciousness after death, it must also be the same experience as before we're even been assembled.

But, as you say, there is a rationale supporting my theory. There's logic behind it, and there is no evidence to contradict it. Until I can think of a reason otherwise, I'm going to assume that's what happens. It's by far the best explanation that I think exists today.

 

[Touring Mars]

When it comes to addressing the question, "What happens to the human mind when the body is dead?", I'd say there is plenty of evidence - every single dead person ever examined... and it all weighs firmly in favour of the idea that the human mind simply ceases to exist - which is exactly the same situation as before we are conceived. There is simply no evidential support for any other idea.

 

[LizMcQueen]

Well, I'm sure dying is something a bit different - although I imagine there are some folks who have come back from serious injuries that could tell you a lot about what dying probably feels like. But being dead - that one we've all done. I don't see what's different about what it's like to have been dead for an hour from what it's like to have not been born for an hour.

I was in a coma for a month, but no white lights or voices, for me that month didn't exist.

btw, no body = no mind.

 

[Dotini]

Certainly there is no unanimity of agreement amongst the various authorities on exactly what constitutes consciousness. It's one of the greatest unsolved mysteries. In lieu of any agreed explanation, it's fair to ask questions, speculate and doubt facile answers.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[Event]

I don't understand why people would base so much of their life and beliefs on a book(s) that has been cross translated countless times over the last 1900 years. every translator has put forth their own bias, whether or not they are aware of it, when translating the texts. Not to mention any other holy books.

 

[niky]

I'd like to think that I'd go on after death. I doubt I will. I used to stay up nights worrying about it. It gave me religion.

Until the point where I realized how many different religions there are... that mine wasn't even the oldest or the "bestest". It was just one of the most popular.

The I got more worried. Then I got depressed. Then I stopped thinking about it. Because:

Billions of years you've been dead - only a tiny fraction of the time have you been living. I find that somewhat comforting actually.

See... the only thing more depressing than being dead for billions of years is being alive for those same billions of years, disembodied, with no one to talk to. Godhood is such a lonely, lonely thing.

 

[Touring Mars]

I'm changing my vote - the boss just left for his holiday, an hour before the Brazil v Holland game! There IS a God after all!

 

[niky]

Is the Brazil Women's Volleyball team watching over your shoulder? If not, then it's still debatable.

 

[CTznOfTime]

I don't understand why people would base so much of their life and beliefs on a book(s) that has been cross translated countless times over the last 1900 years. every translator has put forth their own bias, whether or not they are aware of it, when translating the texts. Not to mention any other holy books.

👍

You all "believers" should be aware that:

thousands of years ago, education was not available for everyone, even much less than accessible as today... ... not everyone was smart enough to know how to behave in society... Social interaction was pretty primary...

And even then, Education is not what we know today... our high school degree NOW would be the equivalent of a PhD (doctorate) program way back then...

"social" Rules were needed to prevent the chaos of a populations who had not references of what's "right" and "wrong"...


and thus THE "BOOk" was created (BY MEN) to regulate and to scare people from harming each other... That's when you get all those tales of "life after death" and guilt ...

The teaching of human behaviors and what would NOT be acceptable in a community...

We as humans have evolved! and got smarter... got more educations...
we are no longer basic... we should NOT rely on THAT Book as much anymore, and should take it LESS literally!

It would be "stupid" to believe everything you read from that BOOK, when it was mainly intended for an illiterate audience and audience with limited thinking capabilities...

That would be my theory and my logic...

I am not forbidden any of you from continuing to believe in religion...
All i am saying and suggesting is that you should take a few steps back and look at the grander pictures...


Are you going to die if you dont believe in religion?.....

let me rephrase this:

Are you going to live and continue living if you believe in religion? ... really? that's going to save you from?? Will you have a conscience after death?...

 

[Dan_]

Well, I can't say that I believe in God, mostly because of the the moralist and twisted vision of a possible superior being established by religions across the ages.

Maybe there is a superior entity, responsible for creating the first chemical processes which started the Universe, or maybe there isn't any at all, the Universe was always there and things are just following a natural flow, which will never be fully understood by mankind.

Regarding the existence of a conscience after death, this is just impossible to analyze and hence impossible to comment on. I don't really believe in reincarnation, or any of these cyclic life theories ( you die, you reborn in another form or identity... ), and then I can't really believe in any type of rationalism or even existence after death, you die, it's all over and this is the way things are explained by biology.

Heaven or Hell? They never existed in my conception, men created God, but never stopped to realize how subjective and fuzzy a superior being can be. All this religious culture and all this unexplained phenomenon through the ages, seeded in many generations and cultures an undeniable and unquestionable God, but all the theories, books and dogmas, were intended to keep things in order, and establish moral standards.

Two cents, from a guy introduced in catholicism since he was 3 and dropped all the religious studies and beliefs at the age of 14.

 

[Sam48]

Regarding the existence of a conscience after death, this is just impossible to analyze and hence impossible to comment on. I don't really believe in reincarnation, or any of these cyclic life theories ( you die, you reborn in another form or identity... ), and then I can't really believe in any type of rationalism or even existence after death, you die, it's all over and this is the way things are explained by biology.

Yet the human mind cannot comprehend what being completely dead is like. In other words, I can't physically imagine me not being someway connected to the outside world (no one can actually). Sleeping is the closest most people can come to feeling of non-existent, however, whilst sleeping, you've only lost just one of your 5 senses.

 

[Dan_]

Yet the human mind cannot comprehend what being completely dead is like. In other words, I can't physically imagine me not being someway connected to the outside world (no one can actually). Sleeping is the closest most people can come to feeling of non-existent, however, whilst sleeping, you've only lost just one of your 5 senses.

Yep, I've read somewhere that you always dream six to ten minutes in a whole night, and these dreams are fed by your memories, desires and thoughts. So after death, none of these will remain I presume, since they're related to the sinapses on your brain. In short, you die, there's nothing more to remember or to dream. Unless there's a convincing explanation for the concept of Soul, untill there I can't imagine any other kind of existence other than biological life.

 

[Sam48]

In short, you die, there's nothing more to remember or to dream. Unless there's a convincing explanation for the concept of Soul, untill there I can't imagine any other kind of existence other than biological life.

And/or a conscience. Since we know a conscience exists (compared to the soul, which has not been completely understood as to what where talking about), we could ask whether it lives on after death. However, science cannot study a conscience. Once we can determine what a conscience really is, then we can determine whether it lives or dies after death by studying it. (somehow)