Do you believe in God?

[UKMikey]

Yes, they did a naughty thing but well, those artifacts are now in safer hands, I assume, and are receiving the proper care and attention they deserve.

Mysterious ways... although it's not like "the ends justify the means" sounds like a particularly biblical idea to me.

 

[Joey D]

...Well, I'm choosing to look at the matter this way: if it weren't for their religious zeal of believing they were doing the right thing - as well as the contribution from the sizeable wallet - many, if not all, of treasures might have been either lost or destroyed by the hands of ISIS.

Yes, they did a naughty thing but well, those artifacts are now in safer hands, I assume, and are receiving the proper care and attention they deserve.

While they may be safer now in terms of survivability, they've lost a ton of historical significance since they are no longer found in situ. One of the most important things in archaeology is that you leave objects in their found place until they can be documented, studied, dated, and used for indicators of other objects that might be in the area. Also, I'm guessing whatever site they came from was completely cleaned out, which is another big no-no since you always leave as much as possible behind so future archaeologist with better technology can study the artifacts and gain more knowledge about them.

I worked for a place that dealt in ancient art for several years and ultimately quit because of shady dealings with the store's owner. I don't think anything was ever smuggled by the owner, but the people that brought stuff in to sell always raised red flags for me. As someone who went to school to be an archaeologist to this day that job still hurts, but I guess it paid for school.

 

[TenEightyOne]

...Well, I'm choosing to look at the matter this way: if it weren't for their religious zeal of believing they were doing the right thing - as well as the contribution from the sizeable wallet - many, if not all, of treasures might have been either lost or destroyed by the hands of ISIS.

I see your point but the risks to such artefacts in Turkey are low and just about non-existent in Israel.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Christian firm smuggled (potentially) thousands of protected historic items from warzones, says it's because they "love the bible".

Again, I'm going to self report this post. If a homosexual committing a crime doesn't belong in the homosexuality thread, I fail to see how a Christian committing a crime belongs in the Christianity thread. I'm disappointed this apparent contradiction wasn't addressed when I self reported last week. I'll be disappointed if it isn't addressed again.

 

[Joey D]

I don't know, it seems to be on topic since Hobby Lobby was using their religion as the justification for smuggling artifacts. It's an example of what people do in the name of their following.

Also, with moderator actions, you may never know if something was done or not. If you honestly feel as if it violates the AUP then by all means report it, if the staff doesn't take public action, they may have taken private action if they bothered to take action at all.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Again, I'm going to self report this post. If a homosexual committing a crime doesn't belong in the homosexuality thread, I fail to see how a Christian committing a crime belongs in the Christianity thread. I'm disappointed this apparent contradiction wasn't addressed when I self reported last week. I'll be disappointed if it isn't addressed again.

My thoughts when posting were that these artefacts were collected and illegally exported by a self-professed Christian company for the purpose of a Christian display. I very nearly posted it in the America thread but then thought it belonged here instead given that the motivation and subject matter seemed so overwhelmingly Christian. I'll await any moderator feedback that may be forthcoming

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't know, it seems to be on topic since Hobby Lobby was using their religion as the justification for smuggling artifacts. It's an example of what people do in the name of their following.

Also, with moderator actions, you may never know if something was done or not. If you honestly feel as if it violates the AUP then by all means report it, if the staff doesn't take public action, they may have taken private action if they bothered to take action at all.

I don't know if it's an AUP violation or not and it's not my intention to report it as such. I just know that an identical situation occured in another thread and I'd like to see consistency across the various discussions. If you one gets chastised in no uncertain terms for posting about crimes committed by a prominent gay man with an alleged under age and same sex victim, then this would seem to me to follow that same train of thought. I mean it's literally identical IMO. And when I say "self report", I'm reporting my own post on the matter, to draw attention to my concerns. I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble.

 

[daan]

Both were addressed. Both were rejected.

Some things don't matter enough to get that bothered about.

 

[Mr Tree]

No because humans are all equal. God is in a plane above us, and therefore above judgment. I would think all religions are like that.

What do you mean with a plane above us?

Because if you mean in a plane above us. Well you're wrong we've been quite high. Higher then what I would consider high. As in heigt is relative to something and at a certain point earth is just a pointless refrence.

 

[TenEightyOne]

What do you mean with a plane above us?

I'd hazard a guess that DLR_Mysterion didn't mean that kind of plane. Still, he's banned now so we may never know. Perhaps he enjoys the idea of god drumming his fingers while he waits for his bags to show up on the carousel.

 

[UKMikey]

Presumably it's a spy plane with stealth capabilities or we'd hear the engines.

 

[Mr Tree]

I'd hazard a guess that DLR_Mysterion didn't mean that kind of plane. Still, he's banned now so we may never know. Perhaps he enjoys the idea of god drumming his fingers while he waits for his bags to show up on the carousel.

Didn't realise he was banned. Don't want to call someone out who can't reply

Also I don't think he meant it in that way. But I was interested in what he did mean. Hence why I asked too.

Edit only now realise there could be confusion over the word 'plane'. My inteded use is a plane as a 'field', sorry I have no better word to describe it in english.

 

[W3H5]

About these pedo priest... can't followers just claim they [pedo priests) aren't Catholic? It seems to work for Muslims when people get blown up by ISIS or radicalised Muslims who, apparently, "aren't Muslim" according to most of the outcry.

Surely if it stands for one it must stand for the other, no? If what ISIS do is anti-Islamic, as claimed by so many, and are therefore not Muslims (as claimed by many Muslims) then certainly what a fiddling Catholic minister does is anti-christian and therefore it can be claimed that he is not really a representative of the faith that Catholics follow.

I'm just wondering here...

 

[Mr Tree]

In my opinion you/one can claim whatever you/they want.

For me to accept that claim is a diffrent story entirely. I do not accept that terrorist groups like al nusra or isis
... Are not islamic. Why do I refuse to accept the claim? They use the koran to justify their attrocious actions. So why would I not accept some of it is religiously inspired. Then again those muslims are not to be compared with western islam. They hold very diffrent believes but who is to say what is real islam?

Same for the priests. They claim to be religious christians. Who are we to say what is real christianity?

Just to be absolutely clear. Not all priests are pedophiles and not all muslims are terrorists!

 

[TenEightyOne]

About these pedo priest... can't followers just claim they [pedo priests) aren't Catholic? It seems to work for Muslims when people get blown up by ISIS or radicalised Muslims who, apparently, "aren't Muslim" according to most of the outcry.

Some do. There's a difference though - ISIS (or other radicals) claim their actions as part of the instruction of Islam. I'm not aware of any Catholic priests who claim to have abused children in the name of the religion. I'm not sure why it would surprise you if the great majority of moderates in any given religion denounce the actions of child abusers or murderous radicals?

 

[JKgo]

I see your point but the risks to such artefacts in Turkey are low and just about non-existent in Israel.

...I thought that the reason Turkey & Israel were "quoted" in the whole debacle was because the funnily named Christian business improperly documented the artifacts as tile samples from those two nations? Or did I read wrong????

Mysterious ways... although it's not like "the ends justify the means" sounds like a particularly biblical idea to me.

Well, the Bible flip-flops every now and then, so yeah, it's hard to tell what's right and wrong if you stick to that book. I think the sensibilities of 2000 years ago and the current times are.... wee bit different. Most likely.

As for me, at least in this case I just thought that the alternative being what it is, I'd go with the lesser of the two evils here.

While they may be safer now in terms of survivability, they've lost a ton of historical significance since they are no longer found in situ. One of the most important things in archaeology is that you leave objects in their found place until they can be documented, studied, dated, and used for indicators of other objects that might be in the area. Also, I'm guessing whatever site they came from was completely cleaned out, which is another big no-no since you always leave as much as possible behind so future archaeologist with better technology can study the artifacts and gain more knowledge about them.

I worked for a place that dealt in ancient art for several years and ultimately quit because of shady dealings with the store's owner. I don't think anything was ever smuggled by the owner, but the people that brought stuff in to sell always raised red flags for me. As someone who went to school to be an archaeologist to this day that job still hurts, but I guess it paid for school.

I get what you're saying here. I've no clue how archaeology works, even after a Googled (perfunctory) reading on the subject, so I won't pretend to know what's what there. Again, I'm choosing to see the positive in this whole ordeal. I'm not condoning what they did, no, but am glad that some of those artifacts have survived and are in the presumably more capable hands. That's it.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Both were addressed. Both were rejected.

Some things don't matter enough to get that bothered about.

It seemed to matter enough in the Homosexuality Thread for a mod to address it. I guess Christians don't deserve the same consideration. Good to know. 👍

 

[UKMikey]

I'm not sure what the contradiction is. The Christians committing the crime say they did it because they loved the bible. I don't know whether the homosexual man who commited the crime claimed to be doing it in the name of homosexuality. If not then I'm not sure his homosexuality was central to his desire to abuse a minor as Christianity appears to be with the archaeology thieves.

Is it something homosexuality made him do, or was he simply a criminal who happened to be homosexual? If the latter then including it in the thread without a similar discussion on its validity to the one here about the thieves seems like an excuse to smear gay people with the idea that homosexuality causes paedophilia to me.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm not sure what the contradiction is. The Christians committing the crime say they did it because they loved the bible. I don't know whether the homosexual man who commited the crime claimed to be doing it in the name of homosexuality. If not then I'm not sure his homosexuality was central to his desire to abuse a minor as Christianity appears to be with the archaeology thieves.

Is it something homosexuality made him do, or was he simply a criminal who happened to be homosexual? If the latter then including it in the thread without a similar discussion on its validity to the one here about the thieves seems like an excuse to smear gay people with the idea that homosexuality causes paedophilia to me.

So if the litmus test is being a member of a group is not a causal factor unless specifically stated and therefore doesn't belong in a thread about that group, then a story about a priest molesting children in the Christian thread must therefore be a excuse to smear the priesthood as being full of child molestors correct? Does being a priest cause him to be a pedophile? I posted about that last week and you didn't seem to have that same line of reasoning just a few days ago.

No one seems to have a problem with discussing pedo priests in the Christianity thread. No one seems to have a problem discussing whether Muslim=Terrorist or Terrorist happens to be Muslim in the Islam thread. These issues exist in many threads so I don't see why the rules are different for the Homosexuality thread if indeed smearing people with the idea that gay=pedophile is the intent of making that post. So what if that is the intent? Isn't that the purpose of discussing things to begin with, to reveal hidden biases and prejudices and have open discussions about them?

 

[Danoff]

So if the litmus test is being a member of a group is not a causal factor unless specifically stated and therefore doesn't belong in a thread about that group, then a story about a priest molesting children in the Christian thread must therefore be a excuse to smear the priesthood as being full of child molestors correct? Does being a priest cause him to be a pedophile? I posted about that last week and you didn't seem to have that same line of reasoning just a few days ago.

No one seems to have a problem with discussing pedo priests in the Christianity thread. No one seems to have a problem discussing whether Muslim=Terrorist or Terrorist happens to be Muslim in the Islam thread. These issues exist in many threads so I don't see why the rules are different for the Homosexuality thread if indeed smearing people with the idea that gay=pedophile is the intent of making that post. So what if that is the intent? Isn't that the purpose of discussing things to begin with, to reveal hidden biases and prejudices and have open discussions about them?

Well, for one, you're conflating situations where people have made decisions (to become a priest, to be Christian, to be Muslim, to be a terrorist) with situations where people have made no decision (to be gay, to be a pedophile).

If we had a thread about being Black (akin to the homosexuality thread), and some members just posted examples of random black people committing crimes , would you see the issue? Do you see the difference between that and posting examples of crimes committed by people who choose to be extreme fundamentalist Muslims who commit crimes in the name of that extremism? If you do, then perhaps you can understand the difference between someone posting about the crime of a holy man who is using his religious status to abuse others in contradiction of his teachings, especially in a case where these religious institutions have themselves worked to cover up similar crimes in the past - thus implicating the entire hierarchical structure of that institution, and someone randomly posting crimes committed by people with a particular sexual affiliation.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well, for one, you're conflating situations where people have made decisions (to become a priest, to be Christian, to be Muslim, to be a terrorist) with situations where people have made no decision (to be gay, to be a pedophile).

If we had a thread about being Black (akin to the homosexuality thread), and some members just posted examples of random black people committing crimes , would you see the issue? Do you see the difference between that and posting examples of crimes committed by people who choose to be extreme fundamentalist Muslims who commit crimes in the name of that extremism? If you do, then perhaps you can understand the difference between someone posting about the crime of a holy man who is using his religious status to abuse others in contradiction of his teachings, especially in a case where these religious institutions have themselves worked to cover up similar crimes in the past - thus implicating the entire hierarchical structure of that institution, and someone randomly posting crimes committed by people with a particular sexual affiliation.

I'm not conflating anything because I'm not drawing any cause/effect conclusions. Yes, I would see the issue about random black people committing crimes etc. Would you see the issue with being prevented from discussing it? Is that what happens? "Oh look, Muslims are terrorists". Mod: Ok please stop discussing this. It's not a causal factor take it to another thread. Not that's not what happens. What happens is discussion ensues, on a discussion board, and people use logic and reason to try and persuade. Is being a priest a causal factor in child abuse? Yes or no? Apparently it doesn't matter if it's yes or no because the post was allowed to remain and be discussed. So why does cause/effect not matter in the Christianity thread but it matters in the Homosexuality thread?

 

[UKMikey]

If we had a thread about being Black (akin to the homosexuality thread), and some members just posted examples of random black people committing crimes , would you see the issue? Do you see the difference between that and posting examples of crimes committed by people who choose to be extreme fundamentalist Muslims who commit crimes in the name of that extremism?

I guess that's a negatory on this one, then.

 

[Danoff]

@Johnnypenso

I guess that's a negatory on this one, then.

I tried. I'm fine with it if we're not supposed to argue the merits of something like racism here.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I guess that's a negatory on this one, then.

Do you have an answer to the direct questions I posted above or do you prefer to chirp from the sidelines?

 

[UKMikey]

Do you have an answer to the direct questions I posted above or do you prefer to chirp from the sidelines?

@Danoff answered the question pretty much as I would've, which is why I pressed "like" on his post. When homosexuality authorities decide to cover up for crimes of paedophilia as the Catholic Church has done then the two situations are analagous. Since homosexuality =/= paedophilia though I guess this isn't going to happen any time soon.

 

[huskeR32]

When homosexuality authorities decide to cover up for crimes of paedophilia as the Catholic Church has done then the two situations are analagous.

I know you say this in jest, but they must exist, right? I mean, somebody has to write this gay agenda I always hear about.

 

[Joey D]

I know you say this in jest, but they must exist, right? I mean, somebody has to write this gay agenda I always hear about.

No authorities write agendas, like all higher ups, they make their secretaries do it.

 

[Dotini]

Occasionally an event happens that causes me to believe that Christians and Muslims can unite in common appreciation - even worship - of the miraculous. I'm speaking of the Marian apparitions at Zeitoon, 1968-71, seen, filmed and photographed by hundred of thousands if not millions. The source of the apparitions my be something in the collective consciousness of the witnesses, extraterrestrials or even Mary herself. No one can say. But it doesn't matter what the source is. It's the result that bitterly feuding enemies coming together in common belief that demonstrates there may be latent hope for human transformation, mankind getting over its religious feuds and conflicts.
http://consciousnessunbound.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-most-spectacular-psychic-phenomenon.html

 

[RacerTed]

Well, if we can't come together over faith, I'm still hoping for someone to figure out warp drive and bring about world peace like they did in Star Trek First Contact.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Occasionally an event happens that causes me to believe that Christians and Muslims can unite in common appreciation - even worship - of the miraculous. I'm speaking of the Marian apparitions at Zeitoon, 1968-71, seen, filmed and photographed by hundred of thousands if not millions. The source of the apparitions my be something in the collective consciousness of the witnesses, extraterrestrials or even Mary herself. No one can say. But it doesn't matter what the source is. It's the result that bitterly feuding enemies coming together in common belief that demonstrates there may be latent hope for human transformation, mankind getting over its religious feuds and conflicts.
http://consciousnessunbound.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-most-spectacular-psychic-phenomenon.html

Religious unification seems a weak premise for introducing More Aliens when you consider that such a unification has been less than evident in recent times.