Do you believe in God?

  • Thread starter Patrik
  • 24,484 comments
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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 624 30.6%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,050 51.4%

  • Total voters
    2,041
But perhaps you would now openly prefer to excuse CIA religious torture techniques in favor of continued dismissal of one old miserable isolated iconoclast on a minor internet sub-forum?

Using religious torture techniques make an entire agency concerned with deities? Do you want to step the logic of that one out for me? I'm pretty sure there's a massive leap in there somewhere that you've missed.

And by all means, attempt to accuse me of excusing the use of torture because I disagree with you. That's not a logical fallacy at all.

Why don't you simply ignore me?

Are you actually telling me not to participate in the discussion? That doesn't seem like what someone who is interested in discussing the logical implications of their statements and assumptions would say. That seems like what someone who was annoyed with having their unsupported speculation shot down would say.

Or do I make such an easy target for ridicule that not a single point I ever make can be permitted acknowledgement as valid?

You do make an easy target for ridicule, because so much of what you post is wacky and largely unsupported by evidence or logical reasoning. If you make a point that is insightful and sensibly supported by logic, I'd be happy to acknowledge it as valid. Give it your best shot.

"(Former CIA Directory Michael) Hayden’s comments do show is that using religion as a weapon in prolonged psychological warfare was an actual “policy” – not a result of agents gone rogue. The goal was to create a burden so great that a person’s religious faith would be destroyed. Nothing could be further from our country’s founding principle."

You could probably have skipped copy/pasting an entire page of stuff that was in the link and simply defined the relevant portions. But using torture techniques that take advantage of the fact that some of their victims happen to be profoundly religious says nothing about the agency's concern with deities.

It says a lot about their concern with gathering information and the lengths that they're willing to go to in order to do so.
 
Using religious torture techniques make an entire agency concerned with deities?
---
(U)sing torture techniques that take advantage of the fact that some of their victims happen to be profoundly religious says nothing about the agency's concern with deities. It says a lot about their concern with gathering information and the lengths that they're willing to go to in order to do so.

If I hear you correctly, you do excuse the CIA policy and practice of religious torture techniques as a weapon in psychological warfare. Otherwise you would have acknowledged at least some validity to my points. You do this solely by denying that the entire agency was involved, and implying the gathering of information was sufficient justification to shatter a detainee's belief in his deity, Allah. You do not condemn the practice. Do you think the CIA would ever torture a man by destroying his belief in Jesus Christ? You add that this says nothing about a CIA concern for deities despite the Director saying to all hands that Islamist terrorists will “continue to press against us until we make sure that we pray and stand and fight and make sure that we know that Jesus Christ is our savior is truly the only solution for our world.”

Well, if that is really your position and not just your alter ego trolling, then you are certainly a man with strong, even hard beliefs. Please tell me, is there anyone in your family who loves and respects you? If so, and you would affirm to them what you have affirmed to me - that you @Imari believe a CIA policy of religious torture techniques to be a justifiable way to gather information - then I would be most impressed, and admit you are an honest man with firm beliefs. Not wise or compassionate, just honest and hard. Otherwise, you need to denounce CIA religious torture and admit that my points are both valid and apposite.

Note for the record: I do not believe in any God or deity, and have never been a member of any religion. In our poll I voted "Maybe".
 
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If I hear you correctly, you do excuse the CIA policy and practice of religious torture techniques as a weapon in psychological warfare. Otherwise you would have acknowledged at least some validity to my points.
I wont speak for Imari, but I dont need to since... "And by all means, attempt to accuse me of excusing the use of torture because I disagree with you. That's not a logical fallacy at all." was already said....
You do this solely by denying that the entire agency was involved, and implying the gathering of information was sufficient justification to shatter a detainee's belief in his deity, Allah.
It is, but man, I am curious, what exactly do you mean by the CIA using "religious torture techniques"? You mean the CIA took their techniques from the bible? Just because they use it doesnt mean they are being used because of religion, it means they are using them because they find some sort of efficacy using them. Or, do you mean they are using religion against their detainees as a torture technique? If thats the case, again, that does not make their actions religious in nature, it means they found a technique that works for their needs.
You do not condemn the practice. You add that this says nothing about a CIA concern for deities despite the Director saying to all hands that Islamist terrorists will “continue to press against us until we make sure that we pray and stand and fight and make sure that we know that Jesus Christ is our savior is truly the only solution for our world.”
A few issues here. First, not coming out right to condemn an action does not mean you support it what so ever. Second you are again attributing one persons words for the actions of an entire agency. Third is a two piece. A. the dir. saying that does not imply in any way that the CIA is concerned with deities. I means the dir. thinks that this is the intent of the terrorists. B. which doesnt even seem to make sense, since Islamist extremists want the whole world to follow Allah and the teachings of the Quran, Not Christ and the bible...

Well, if that is really your position and not just your alter ego trolling, then you are certainly a man with strong, even hard beliefs. Please tell me, is there anyone in your family who loves and respects you? If so, and you would affirm to them what you have affirmed to me - that you @Imari believe a CIA policy of religious torture techniques to be a justifiable way to gather information - then I would be most impressed, and admit you are an honest man with firm beliefs. Not wise or compassionate, just honest and hard. Otherwise, you need to denounce CIA religious torture and admit that my points are both valid and apposite.

Note for the record: I do not believe in any God or deity, and have never been a member of any religion. In our poll I voted "Maybe".
Again, read that first portion of my post about Imari's post...
Or, I guess since there isnt much you can refute, you will probably pull your normal move of trying to change the subject with aliens...
 
man, I am curious, what exactly do you mean by the CIA using "religious torture techniques"?
By asking this question you reveal that you have not read my previous posts, since your answer was included there. You are not a serious interlocutor. :dunce:

Edit: I do not believe in aliens. I assert they are not here on Earth or in our solar system, and only that there is a (small) chance they may exist elsewhere in the universe. @Famine has instructed me not to bring up this term in this thread. So maybe you shouldn't either. At least refrain from trolling me.
 
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By asking this question you reveal that you have not read my previous posts, since your answer was included there. You are not a serious interlocutor. :dunce:
Your calling me a dunce there liver lips? Cause that is what the smiley implies. You might want to back that up. I've gone back and reread all your trash posts and while you have pasted lots of trash links and lots of trash article snippets, nothing you posted answered that question. What do YOU mean by religious torture techniques? Further, how does that get conflated into the whole of the CIA being some sort of religious entity? Reading all that trash, the best I come up with is that the director is religious, as is his right, and that the CIA uses detainees religion against them during "interrogations." Anything else is just conspiracy conjecture BS that can only really be speculated, not proven. Nothing there is evidence of some secret holy war between "Islamic terrorists" and the CIA.
"Islamist terrorists will “continue to press against us until we make sure that we pray and stand and fight and make sure that we know that Jesus Christ is our savior is truly the only solution for our world.”" Read that over a few times. Give it the ol' pedantic rub down. Wren I read that, it seems to say that Islamist terrorists want to force us into believing Jesus Christ is our only savior. Does that really sound like what ISIS or Al Qaeda is pushing for. To turn people into Christians? Perhaps, I am not reading it right. So, I'll give that benefit of the doubt. That still is only his opinion of the situation, that doesnt make it an official CIA policy.
 
If I hear you correctly, you do excuse the CIA policy and practice of religious torture techniques as a weapon in psychological warfare.

Quote the point where I said that, or stop putting words in my mouth. I said that the policy and practise of religious torture techniques was irrelevant to the point you were making, that the CIA in concerned with deities.

You do not condemn the practice.

That wasn't the question. You're simply trying to shift the discussion onto something else to avoid having to justify your statement about the CIA being concerned about deities. If you wish my opinion about the CIA policy of torture, you may ask for it in the appropriate thread and I shall respond.

Do you think the CIA would ever torture a man by destroying his belief in Jesus Christ?

Yes.

Well, if that is really your position and not just your alter ego trolling, then you are certainly a man with strong, even hard beliefs. Please tell me, is there anyone in your family who loves and respects you?

Ah, so it's the attacks on my person and my family now? Solid discussion technique there. Much better than actually trying to support your argument.

If so, and you would affirm to them what you have affirmed to me - that you @Imari believe a CIA policy of religious torture techniques to be a justifiable way to gather information - then I would be most impressed, and admit you are an honest man with firm beliefs.

Would you like to quote where I said that? Or would you like to admit that you intentionally lied about the beliefs I hold in order to try and somehow undermine me as a person?
 
Do you think the CIA would ever torture a man by destroying his belief in Jesus Christ?


What we have here is simple admission from @Imari that belief in a deity is a weapon in the CIA arsenal of psychological warfare. Therefore, my original post that CIA was interested in deities, even if only as a weapon to be exploited, is both valid and relevant to this thread. If @Famine doesn't think so, then I ask him to say so.
 
What we have here is simple admission from @Imari that belief in a deity is a weapon in the CIA arsenal of psychological warfare. Therefore, my original post that CIA was interested in deities, even if only as a weapon to be exploited, is both valid and relevant to this thread. If @Famine doesn't think so, then I ask him to say so.
I would be willing to concede that point, but unfortunately ive read these posts several times. And in them you try to assert that the CIA is in some sort of religious ideological war, not just that the CIA is interested in deities.
The CIA is concerned about deities:

September 14, 2017
God and Man at the CIA? Foreign Policy drags director's faith into analysis piece

https://www.getreligion.org/getreli...icy-drags-directors-faith-into-analysis-piece

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/09/08...uietly-killing-the-agencys-diversity-mandate/

Pompeo, an evangelical Christian, has said previously that Islamist terrorists will “continue to press against us until we make sure that we pray and stand and fight and make sure that we know that Jesus Christ is our savior is truly the only solution for our world.”The concerns are not that Pompeo is religious but that his religious convictions are bleeding over into the CIA.According to four sources familiar with the matter, Pompeo, who attends weekly Bible studies held in government buildings, referenced God and Christianity repeatedly in his first all-hands speech and in a recent trip report while traveling overseas. According to a profile by the Washington Post’s Greg Miller, Pompeo is working on starting a chaplaincy for the CIA campus like the military has.The CIA did not dispute these events. “Director Pompeo is a man of faith,” the spokesperson said. “The idea that he should not practice his faith because he is Director of CIA is absurd.”

I wish that your skepticism was due solely to my own shortcomings, which are many. But perhaps you would now openly prefer to excuse CIA religious torture techniques in favor of continued dismissal of one old miserable isolated iconoclast on a minor internet sub-forum? Why don't you simply ignore me? Or do I make such an easy target for ridicule that not a single point I ever make can be permitted acknowledgement as valid?

"(Former CIA Directory Michael) Hayden’s comments do show is that using religion as a weapon in prolonged psychological warfare was an actual “policy” – not a result of agents gone rogue. The goal was to create a burden so great that a person’s religious faith would be destroyed. Nothing could be further from our country’s founding principle."

https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/religion-cia-torture-report

The Senate Intelligence Committee's "Torture Report," the 500-page report which summarizes a 6,700 page classified report, was released today.

Even for those of us who follow the torture beat closely, this report contains significant new information and corroboration of previous suppositions. Among the most alarming findings is that a minimum of 20% of tortured detainees were wrongly detained, some in blatant cases of mistaken identity.

My own research on torture in U.S. detention facilities has emphasized the religious aspects of abuse ("The Secret Weapon" and "Disgrace"). And though today's report does not contain as much along these lines as did the Senate Armed Services Committee’s report in 2009, it does analyze assertions made by CIA Director Hayden in 2007 about the role of religion in "enhanced interrogation."

Hayden argued that the CIA’s experience with detainees and “their particular psychological profile” necessitated interrogation so burdensome that the detainees would consider themselves released from their religious obligations:

Perceiving themselves true believers in a religious war, detainees believe they are morally bound to resist until Allah has sent them a burden too great for them to withstand. At that point — and that point varies by detainee — their cooperation in their own heart and soul becomes blameless and they enter into this cooperative relationship with our debriefers.

… it varies how long it takes, but I gave you a week or two as the normal window in which we actually helped this religious zealot to get over his own personality and put himself in a spirit of cooperation. (485-86)

In fact, the Senate report found that only one detainee said anything about such a concept, and even his elliptical remarks seem like nothing more than reporting he had prayed for God’s guidance to cooperate. The report concludes, rather, that "there are no records of CIA detainees making these statements," the kind which suggest detainees had been moved to cooperation by having their religious faith broken. Furthermore, the idea of breaking a detainee’s religious faith was first suggested by “a walk-in,” a source [redacted] to advise the CIA about al-Qa’ida:

Allah apparently allows you to talk if you feel threatened. The [CIA] detainees never counted on being detained by us outside the U.S. and being subjected to methods they never dreamed of. (486)

Where did this "expert" advice come from? Like many other techniques described in today’s report, this one had never been tried in a real interrogation. It was reverse-engineered from SERE training for hypothetical situations, and the two psychologists contracted to develop the CIA’s program had never before participated in an actual interrogation.

One CIA officer testified in 2007 that Abu Zubaydah had actually thanked him for it, claiming that he told the officer: "you need to continue to do this [i.e., bringing religious faith to the breaking point] because I need to be able to live with who I am and I will continue to be the religious believing person I am, but you had to get me to the point where I could have absolution from my god to cooperate and deal with your questions. So he thanked us for bringing him to that point, beyond which he knew his religious beliefs absolved him from cooperating with us."

The Senate committee was supposed to believe that a cruelly tortured man had thanked his torturer for breaking his religious faith. It goes without saying that the Senate committee found, after scrutinizing over 6 million pages of documents, "no CIA records to support this testimony" (487 n. 2646).

During the same hearing, Sen. Nelson asked about Hayden's plans, if he suspected al-Qa’ida was training people to resist such techniques. His answer is chilling.

DIRECTOR HAYDEN: "You recall the policy on which this is based, that we're going to give him a burden that Allah says is too great for you to bear, so they can put the burden down." (487)

The new report does not describe the many techniques of religiously-themed abuse that I compiled from ex-detainee memoirs and interviews in 2007-08, nor does it extend our knowledge from the 2009 report, which admitted techniques such as forced prostration before an idol shrine to generate “religious disgrace.”

But what Hayden’s comments do show is that using religion as a weapon in prolonged psychological warfare was an actual “policy” – not a result of agents gone rogue.

The goal was to create a burden so great that a person’s religious faith would be destroyed. Nothing could be further from our country’s founding principle.

If I hear you correctly, you do excuse the CIA policy and practice of religious torture techniques as a weapon in psychological warfare. Otherwise you would have acknowledged at least some validity to my points. You do this solely by denying that the entire agency was involved, and implying the gathering of information was sufficient justification to shatter a detainee's belief in his deity, Allah. You do not condemn the practice. Do you think the CIA would ever torture a man by destroying his belief in Jesus Christ? You add that this says nothing about a CIA concern for deities despite the Director saying to all hands that Islamist terrorists will “continue to press against us until we make sure that we pray and stand and fight and make sure that we know that Jesus Christ is our savior is truly the only solution for our world.”

Well, if that is really your position and not just your alter ego trolling, then you are certainly a man with strong, even hard beliefs. Please tell me, is there anyone in your family who loves and respects you? If so, and you would affirm to them what you have affirmed to me - that you @Imari believe a CIA policy of religious torture techniques to be a justifiable way to gather information - then I would be most impressed, and admit you are an honest man with firm beliefs. Not wise or compassionate, just honest and hard. Otherwise, you need to denounce CIA religious torture and admit that my points are both valid and apposite.

Note for the record: I do not believe in any God or deity, and have never been a member of any religion. In our poll I voted "Maybe".
Here is your dunce hat back. :dunce:
 
What we have here is simple admission from @Imari that belief in a deity is a weapon in the CIA arsenal of psychological warfare.

Nope, and you should probably stop trying to put words in my mouth. Psychology is a weapon in the CIA arsenal of informational warfare. They have no interest in the properties of the deity itself, they only care about what the target thinks and how that can be exploited to their own purposes. It makes no functional difference to the CIA interrogators whether such a deity exists or not, and so it would be a complete waste of time for them to pursue that information when they could better be studying how to use applied psychology to attack beliefs in general.

Therefore, my original post that CIA was interested in deities, even if only as a weapon to be exploited, is both valid and relevant to this thread.

Well, your goalposts are starting to shuffle around on you there. We've gone from "the CIA are concerned about deities" to "the CIA are interested in deities, even if only as a weapon to be exploited". How does one exploit a deity as a weapon, by the way? I think at the point that you're exploiting a deity you probably qualify as a deity yourself.

The CIA has the same interest in psychology and beliefs that they have in enemas, wet rags and forced nudity. Or detective work, informants and mutual cooperation. They are tools for them to achieve their goals, presumably gathering information for the benefit of the US, it's citizens and government. These are not concerns, and these things are of interest to the CIA only in the sense that they can be of use at times. Somehow, that feels like rather a step back from what you were claiming earlier in the thread.

Is a psychologist concerned about deities? Not really, they're concerned about their patient. A psychologist will learn and apply whatever knowledge necessary for the well-being (or otherwise, in this case) of the patient, but just because a psychologist happens to work with a patient that holds religious beliefs does not in and of itself make them concerned with deities.


Also, you've completed omitted making any mention of where I supposedly admitted to you that I believe that the CIA use of torture is justified. I take it then that you cannot. As you are an honourable man, I therefore expect that you will explicitly admit that you misrepresented my beliefs and apologise. You can withdraw the implication that my family does not love and respect me while you're at it.
 
As you are an honourable man, I therefore expect that you will explicitly admit that you misrepresented my beliefs and apologise. You can withdraw the implication that my family does not love and respect me while you're at it.
You have more faith in him than I do....
 
I do not believe in aliens. I assert they are not here on Earth or in our solar system, and only that there is a (small) chance they may exist elsewhere in the universe.

And yet you cannot help but mention them at every opportunity, regardless of relevance to the topic.
 
Even if that were true, we don't choose what we are exposed to as a child. I'll continue to believe that belief is not a choice, suggesting we can influence ourselves by choosing our surroundings I'll agree with. There has to be a nature part to it as well though, a natural tendency to believe.
This is simply untrue. A person has the ability to believe whatever they want. Think about it. Do you want to be under someone's control about your deep decisions? I sure as hell don't.

Keep on open mind. It's much more fun!
 
This is simply untrue. A person has the ability to believe whatever they want. Think about it. Do you want to be under someone's control about your deep decisions? I sure as hell don't.

Keep on open mind. It's much more fun!
It's not a black and white issue. Some people grow into adults and shed much of their childhood beliefs and some don't. Some want to and can't. Some things become so engrained in childhood that it's almost impossible to imagine yourself not having certain beliefs. This goes for anything, including, but not limited to, religious beliefs.
 
It's not a black and white issue. Some people grow into adults and shed much of their childhood beliefs and some don't. Some want to and can't. Some things become so engrained in childhood that it's almost impossible to imagine yourself not having certain beliefs. This goes for anything, including, but not limited to, religious beliefs.

Of course it's not. That is nothing I said. Yes we live in gray areas. Good comments. Peace.

Btw,
I was just involved in a terrible real life automobile accident. They say I am lucky to be alive, I have no memory of what happened or want to discuss it. Life is good and precious.
 
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The Church of Satan is fully behind the use of sex robots to promote healthier interactions between humans

The Church of Satan began a social media campaign this week advocating for the use of sex robots to save humankind from its basest desires through allowing us to enact those base desires – on robots.

http://news.churchofsatan.com/post/122459391567/the-means-by-which-a-humanoid-may-be-constructed

http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2018/01/the-church-of-satan-is-betting-on-sex-robots-to-save-humanity/

westworld.jpg


HBO’s ‘Westworld’ series explores similar ethical dilemmas. If you can carry out any violent or sexual fantasy you desire on a lifelike robot, would you? Should you?


lavey-640x360.jpg

LaVey with Hollywood icon and sex symbol Jayne Mansfield in 1966.



The Sigil of Baphomet is the official symbol of LaVeyan Satanism and the Church of Satan.



The Church views Satan as an archetype of pride, individualism, and enlightenment.
 
HBO’s ‘Westworld’ series explores similar ethical dilemmas. If you can carry out any violent or sexual fantasy you desire on a lifelike robot, would you? Should you?

I've watched it. There's no issue carrying out violent or sexual fantasies on lifelike robots provided they're just machines without consciousness or awareness of anything around them. It would be more or less the same as doing it on a video game. It's an amoral issue imo.

In Westworld, every individual had the capacity to suffer so, no, I don't think that would be OK.

/offtopic
 
HBO’s ‘Westworld’ series explores similar ethical dilemmas. If you can carry out any violent or sexual fantasy you desire on a lifelike robot, would you? Should you?

Would I? That's my business.

Should I? I don't see the problem if it doesn't harm or distress anybody else. People seem more sensitive (if that's the right word) about using lifeless objects that resemble humans (or other life forms, I guess). Is there really a difference between using a smaller object that resembles genitalia or using a life-size representation of the genitalia's owner? I suspect not, really.

Or a watermelon, now I think of it. Content warning.
 
Would I? That's my business.

Should I? I don't see the problem if it doesn't harm or distress anybody else. People seem more sensitive (if that's the right word) about using lifeless objects that resemble humans (or other life forms, I guess). Is there really a difference between using a smaller object that resembles genitalia or using a life-size representation of the genitalia's owner? I suspect not, really.

Or a watermelon, now I think of it. Content warning.
It's a gas that you compass sex with a watermelon. Reminds me of the old joke about a monkey ****ing a football.

But the point of my OP was to promote healthy relations between men and women. So even if you need to replace your sigil of Baphomet with that of a watermelon, so long as the hausfrau is good with it, then so am I.
 
Given the evidence then belief in God statistically far outweighs evolution.
Nope, as belief requires no evidence at all.

One has no evidence (belief) the other (scientific theory) does.

Awaits nonsense in response
 
Assuming we don't extinct ourselves, what would we develop into after another 3.5 billion years? If evolution is true then 1/2 way along our evolutionary scale, what shape were we? Fatter, taller, rounder, slower?

Has anyone written a computer simulation for evolution?
 
Assuming we don't extinct ourselves, what would we develop into after another 3.5 billion years? If evolution is true then 1/2 way along our evolutionary scale, what shape were we? Fatter, taller, rounder, slower?

Has anyone written a computer simulation for evolution?

You should probably address the puzzled responses you got to your previous post. Regarding this one, I would say that you need to understand evolution well to understand where the human race is headed. Mostly, we're not really "evolving" (according to natural selection, which is what evolution usually refers to). Natural selection occurs when the fittest of the species reproduce and the less fit of the species don't. That mostly stops happening in developed countries. Idiocracy pointed out that perhaps it is happening in a counter-intuitive manner. But for the most part, people don't reproduce according to genetic traits in developed nations.
 
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