Do you believe in God?

[KungFury]

Belief must simply be a dirty little word to some.

If people do not believe I wonder how you swap the wording around in the placebo effect to avoid it's use.

 

[Dotini]

Belief must simply be a dirty little word to some.

If people do not believe I wonder how you swap the wording around in the placebo effect to avoid it's use.

Adoration, love and devotion come to mind as words that could substitute for belief. I.e., "I adore, love and worship atheism and the big bang theory."

 

[Danoff]

Belief must simply be a dirty little word to some.

If people do not believe I wonder how you swap the wording around in the placebo effect to avoid it's use.

It's not a dirty word, it's a word that has a specific meaning... and it has been the focal point of much discussion in this thread. People say things like "I believe in God the same way you believe the sun will come up in the morning". Which isn't true, because it mixes intended meanings for the word belief. Here's another example:

Adoration, love and devotion come to mind as words that could substitute for belief.

None of those substitute well for belief. I adore, love, and am devoted to my children. Yet if you ask me whether I believe they exist, I would say no. In the colloquial sense of the word, yes of course I "believe" they exist (ie: I think it's rational to proceed as if they do). But in the religious sense.... as in I think that it is unquestionably true... no, I can question whether ANY of my perceptions to date are true. I have received no incontrovertible proof that anything beyond myself actually exists, much less the creator of the reality I question the existence of.

This is skepticism. Proceeding through life despite knowing that almost nothing can be proven undoubtedly true. It's also science... not "believing" in evolution. Not "believing" in the big bang. Knowing that any of it could be falsified tomorrow, but proceeding as though they were true today with the knowledge that it is the best you can do.

 

[KungFury]

No comment on the placebo effect?

How is it explained similar beliefs have manifest around the globe over different time periods before modern communication?

 

[Danoff]

You need to actually tag me if you want me to see that you responded.

No comment on the placebo effect?

I don't know what you mean by that. Are you trying to say that the only way the placebo effect could happen is if people believe that the drug works? I'm not questioning whether ANYONE can believe something. Also the placebo effect can happen to me if I merely think that it is probable that a doctor exists and is giving me medicine that exists and that the medicine has been tested and usually works on other people that exist in a reality that exists. Even that state can result in a placebo effect, without belief. I choose to exist in that state.

How is it explained similar beliefs have manifest around the globe over different time periods before modern communication?

Define similar.

 

[KungFury]

think that it is probable that a doctor exists and is giving me medicine that exists and that the medicine has been tested and usually works on other people that exist in a reality that exists. Even that state can result in a placebo effect, without belief.

Thinking something without proof, that's not belief then. Other people are not you and how is it that the drug can actually fix you when all you take is sugar? I'm still getting the idea you simply do not like a particular word.

Similar - resembling without being identical.

 

[Dotini]

No comment on the placebo effect?

The placebo effect takes place when a person perceives an improvement in their condition, as when I wear a copper bracelet to combat inflammation in my hand and wrist.

If a person feels a need to adore, love, and worship, then they may find a great deal of relief in finding the big bang. Oh, wait.

 

[Danoff]

Thinking something without proof, that's not belief then. Other people are not you and how is it that the drug can actually fix you when all you take is sugar? I'm still getting the idea you simply do not like a particular word.

I'm having a hard time following this bit ^. Proceeding as though something is true even with the knowledge that it might not be is not faith (and it's not belief), it's assumption. Faith would be believing that something is true without proof. There is no room for "it might not be" in faith. Someone may believe because of proof or because of faith. In either case, there is no room for "it might not be true" in belief - which is at odds with its colloquial use. But a slang use for the word "belief" makes it very difficult to talk about the differences between thought processes in this thread.

The placebo effect can happen merely because you think a drug will probably work. It could even happen if you think it probably won't, but hope that it will. I'm not sure why you're puzzled by placebo effect.

Using a strict definition of the word "belief" (ie: not slang or colloquial use), I believe exactly one thing, that I exist. I "believe" almost nothing about the nature of that existence.

Similar - resembling without being identical.

Explain to me what beliefs you find to be "similar". There are many degrees of similarity. You're looking for meaning in how close one belief is to another, and I'm wondering where you draw the line between whether two beliefs are similar or not.

 

[KungFury]

The placebo effect can happen merely because you think a drug will probably work. It could even happen if you think it probably won't, but hope that it will. I'm not sure why you're puzzled by placebo effect.

Which of course has nothing to do with belief then. Some people actually do believe something will cure them not think, not guess, not any of that, not even Gettier it, they believe it will work. The fact that it does work for them is another matter all together but it too will only serve to strengthen their belief in something.

Belief is real, it happens in the human mind, it's biological, that is my point and if I choose not to belief as you claim I can, then what happens when the drug fails/fixes me? I could wish and want the drug to work without believing it would. See what I mean?
......

You can choose a similar belief if you want to, all I'm saying is that people without any contact with others due to time distance or physical distance have come to similar false conclusions I would consider beliefs. God is an obvious one, this is the god thread after all. Why all the dance and circumstance?

 

[Danoff]

Belief is real, it happens in the human mind, it's biological, that is my point and if I choose not to belief as you claim I can, then what happens when the drug fails/fixes me? I could wish and want the drug to work without believing it would. See what I mean?

Nope. I'm lost.

I agree that belief is real. But belief is ultimately a choice. It's not something you can control as directly as say... deciding to stand up. But it's something you can choose whether or not to do. You have no rational basis for any beliefs (except 1). I can demonstrate to you rationally why any of those beliefs are unfounded, and you may very well choose to ignore rationality. Often that choice is made because of discomfort with emotions.

You can choose a similar belief if you want to, all I'm saying is that people without any contact with others due to time distance or physical distance have come to similar false conclusions I would consider beliefs. God is an obvious one, this is the god thread after all. Why all the dance and circumstance?

Are we talking like... one god? Or are multiple gods similar to one god? The reason people believe that the universe was created by somebody that thinks and acts and looks kinda like themselves but is more powerful is because that's what they have personal experience with when it comes to stuff getting built/made/created, so they figure that's what it had to be.

 

[Imari]

No comment on the placebo effect?

What is it about the placebo effect that you think requires belief? The placebo effect still works even if you know that the "drug" you're being given is a placebo.

There's also actually a very strong link between the brain, emotional states, the central nervous system and the immune system. It's a lot of what makes mental illness so insidious. The placebo effect is not well understood as far as I know, but I'm not sure of anything that requires belief for it to function.

Belief must simply be a dirty little word to some.

It's not in and of itself, but I've posted in the Flat Earth thread about how we find people who ignore reason in favour of predetermined judgements that make them feel comfortable kind of disturbing. Mostly because it's hard to then trust their judgement in other areas.

Depending on your reasons for believing in your religion, that may very well apply. Belief in God is not identical to belief that there's a sprite sitting on your shoulder urging you to kill all the Chinese. But for some, the difference is not huge. See ISIS. Or the KKK, or the Lord's Resistance Army. These are groups that use their belief in an invisible friend to justify persecution and murder.

Most religious folk aren't like this, and don't use the same judgement that they use to evaluate religion as they do to evaluate everyday life. But it's still a little odd, that people can choose to compartmentalise their reasoning when they so choose in order to achieve outcomes that they deem desirable or necessary.

 

[LeMansAid]

I'll continue to believe that belief is not a choice

If a belief in God is meant to be a good thing, it seems very unfair that God would "gift" it (your word) to some and not others.

I've come to the conclusion that if there is a God, and a God worth taking heed of, that that God would (at this point) not respect me believing in it.

 

[TexRex]

If a belief in God is meant to be a good thing, it seems very unfair that God would "gift" it (your word) to some and not others.

Perhaps God knew an individual would not believe and spitefully left belief out of the build.

Woah...

...

...chills.

 

[Imari]

Perhaps God knew an individual would not believe and spitefully left belief out of the build.

But these days we have online updates so he can just patch it in. Right? Or is belief DLC?

If someone tells me that I have to try and luck into belief in a lootbox I'm going to throw a tanty.

 

[TexRex]

If someone tells me that I have to try and luck into belief in a lootbox I'm going to throw a tanty.

How would you react to being told belief is tiered and available only by subscription? You can go for the free trial but you'll have ad-filled dreams and when the trial is over...well...you should have read the fine print.

 

[TenEightyOne]

But these days we have online updates so he can just patch it in. Right? Or is belief DLC?

God will modify later updates according to how much he can credibly impose (and then tax) any given belief set.

T'was ever thus.

 

[Imari]

Wait until he starts changing the physics with every patch.

 

[Rallywagon]

Maybe he can start by fixing the "physic" that allows someone like the "cash me ouside" girl to be financially secure for life by the age of 14 for literally being a 🤬 while actual good, hardworking people ar eliving on the brink of poverty.
I mean, if anyone needs a reason to not believe in god, that seems a good place to start.

 

[Imari]

Maybe he can start by fixing the "physic" that allows someone like the "cash me ouside" girl to be financially secure for life by the age of 14 for literally being a 🤬 while actual good, hardworking people ar eliving on the brink of poverty.
I mean, if anyone needs a reason to not believe in god, that seems a good place to start.

To be fair, she is stuck being an idiot for her entire life. I'm not sure that's a trade I'd make for financial security.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I'll continue to believe that belief is not a choice, suggesting we can influence ourselves by choosing our surroundings I'll agree with. There has to be a nature part to it as well though, a natural tendency to believe.

I agree with this statement. The construct of a god or a religion is likely a man made one, but I think it's in response to an underlying basic instinct, or perhaps need, that helps the mind to deal with futility of existence - essentially part of an existential survival mechanism. The degree to, and fashion in which people then buy into it is clearly as much to do with circumstance though.

 

[TexRex]

"Did you make mankind after we made you?
And the Devil too!
Dear God don't know if you noticed but
Your name is on a lot of quotes in this book
And us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look" --Andy Partridge, from XTC's "Dear God"

Take from that what you will.

 

[KungFury]

If a belief in God is meant to be a good thing, it seems very unfair that God would "gift" it (your word) to some and not others.

I've come to the conclusion that if there is a God, and a God worth taking heed of, that that God would (at this point) not respect me believing in it.

I wasn't speaking of god though, only in having beliefs in general. It is true that religious people will consider their belief or faith as a gift from god, it can be a gift from our biological makeup just easily. No one is born believing in god or anything else in particular imo.

 

[Danoff]

I agree with this statement. The construct of a god or a religion is likely a man made one, but I think it's in response to an underlying basic instinct, or perhaps need, that helps the mind to deal with futility of existence - essentially part of an existential survival mechanism. The degree to, and fashion in which people then buy into it is clearly as much to do with circumstance though.

I wasn't speaking of god though, only in having beliefs in general. It is true that religious people will consider their belief or faith as a gift from god, it can be a gift from our biological makeup just easily. No one is born believing in god or anything else in particular imo.

Beliefs can be tied to circumstance. If someone was raised Christian, for example, they're predisposed to Christianity. But to say that it's not their choice to remain Christian is to do a disservice to the capability of the human mind. Many people leave Christianity, choosing not to believe what they have been taught. The beginning of that is to choose to apply critical thinking to religious teachings. And that's a choice. Religious indoctrination includes the instruction to avoid applying critical thinking to religion, and that any attempt in doing so... questioning the word of god, is blasphemous and sends you to hell. Some people ignore this fear tactic and lift the curtain anyway. Choosing to question, or choosing not to question, is still up to the person.

 

[Dotini]

Is belief in material progress a valid and satisfying belief system? Is nihilism a valid and satisfying belief system?

 

[Danoff]

Is belief in material progress a valid and satisfying belief system? Is nihilism a valid and satisfying belief system?

There's only one thing you can believe and be supported in that belief. The rest of it is a sloppy use for the word belief, or is mistake of logic, or is faith.

Edit:

I should say... one thing that I know of anyway.

 

[PeterJB]

To be fair, she is stuck being an idiot for her entire life. I'm not sure that's a trade I'd make for financial security.

I dunno, I think I'd be cool with that if I could buy shiny things and be waited on my whole life...

 

[TexRex]

I grew up in a semi-spiritual/semi-freethinking community where I was informed of a number of religious beliefs and was given the opportunity to determine which suited me best, without having to make that decision known or justify it. In hindsight, I might've preferred being told what was "right." Oddly enough, disbelief wasn't presented as an option.

Frankly I still don't know where I stand when it comes to a deity (or several), but I'm fairly certain he/she/it/they didn't slither down from trees bearing forbidden fruit, burn bushes, or drop amphibians from the sky.

My issue isn't with belief, but with the power trip that is organized religion. With using belief as justification for committing atrocities. With driving a set of arbitrary rules (you shouldn't need a book to discern right from wrong) so deep into a girl that when she's raped and impregnated in college, she's forced to decide between "sin" of abortion and "sin" of suicide because she can't bring that child into the world--and chooses the latter.

Our experiences inform our beliefs, and those experiences can be significant enough that they flip belief on its head.

 

[Dotini]

Our experiences inform our beliefs, and those experiences can be significant enough that they flip belief on its head.

Yes, and our national experiences with prosperity, material progress and peace through military might is at this time a seemingly useful and satisfying basis for our positive self-belief. Our nation is composed of large numbers of Christians, Mormons, skeptics and atheists. A smorgasbord of beliefs, even a few nihilists. All of our beliefs are supported by experience, and they are mostly positive.

 

[TexRex]

Yes, and our national experiences with prosperity, material progress and peace through military might is at this time a seemingly useful and satisfying basis for our positive self-belief. Our nation is composed of large numbers of Christians, Mormons, skeptics and atheists. A smorgasbord of beliefs, even a few nihilists. All of our beliefs are supported by experience, and they are mostly positive.

Um...what?

 

[Dotini]

Um...what?

As long as things are going well, pretty much any belief is acceptable. Belief may not really matter. Or else I'm saying American exceptionalism, capitalism and logical materialism is the greatest, most successful belief system on Earth.