Do you believe in God?

  • Thread starter Patrik
  • 24,484 comments
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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 624 30.6%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,050 51.4%

  • Total voters
    2,041
As long as things are going well, pretty much any belief is acceptable. Belief may not really matter.
Yeah, no, I understood what you said. I don't understand what it has to do with what I said.

Beyond that, I don't agree with that representation of the current state of the nation, at least not the one I live in. There's all the bad that was glossed over, and there's the omission of the sacrifices (that many--boy is that an understatement--don't feel are worthwhile) necessary to make the "good" possible; but hey, you can keep people from killing each other by killing them first, right?

I'd appreciate it if you'd not take what I say out of context when its sentiment is clearly out of line with whatever point you're trying to make.*

*Edit: Particularly when that point is so wildly off-topic. There's another thread in which that point should be made, and done so without the misappropriation of quotes.
 
My issue isn't with belief, but with the power trip that is organized religion.

The majority of our country is religious. It was founded by religious zealots and Masons fleeing European persecution. Yet we are the greatest nation on Earth. Power trips and girls being raped are ubiquitous over world history and probably pre-history. I don't see what you are complaining about.

FWIW, I have never been a member of any organized religion.
 
capitalism... is the greatest, most successful belief system on Earth.

It's not a belief system. You can, like basically anything, believe in it religiously, but capitalism itself is merely a general model of behavior. Believing in capitalism is like believing in gravity. You don't have to, and it works regardless. It has served as an accurate prediction of the behavior of actors existing in the universe in the past.

This is still such a crux of misunderstanding in this thread. Believing in God and "believing" that the sun will rise in the morning is not the same thing. The latter is an assumption about what will probably take place based on past events, and the former is supposedly a proven truth about the universe.
 
It's not a belief system. You can, like basically anything, believe in it religiously, but capitalism itself is merely a general model of behavior. Believing in capitalism is like believing in gravity. You don't have to, and it works regardless. It has served as an accurate prediction of the behavior of actors existing in the universe in the past.

This is still such a crux of misunderstanding in this thread. Believing in God and "believing" that the sun will rise in the morning is not the same thing. The latter is an assumption about what will probably take place based on past events, and the former is supposedly a proven truth about the universe.
Is religion, per se, the only possible belief system?

Edit:

From Google:

Belief systems are the stories we tell ourselves to define our personal sense of Reality.
-----------------
A belief system is a set of mutually supportive beliefs. The beliefs of any such system can be classified as religious, philosophical, political, ideological, or a combination of these.
 
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Is religion, per se, the only possible belief system?

That's a tricky question. One could argue that any actual belief system is a religion because it's a belief system. Belief in a god or gods is not the only belief system, but one can describe beliefs in other things as religion.

Edit:

Really, for a belief system to not be a religion, it has to be proven. And there's only one thing I can think of that fits that description, existence of yourself.
 
I don't see what you are complaining about.
What complaint am I supposed to have made?

Could it be a statement regarding a correlation between experiences and belief--specifically a change in belief, as that was the topic at hand--was perceived as a complaint because it being a logical argument is an affront to one's own beliefs?
 
The majority of our country is religious. It was founded by religious zealots and Masons fleeing European persecution. Yet we are the greatest nation on Earth. Power trips and girls being raped are ubiquitous over world history and probably pre-history. I don't see what you are complaining about.

FWIW, I have never been a member of any organized religion.
Some religous zealots left England for America, but that was 100+ years before the founding of the United States. We separated from England because of taxation, not religious idiologies. Almost all of the founding fathers are quite clear in the fact that the US was founded as a secular nation, not a religious one.
 
Really, for a belief system to not be a religion, it has to be proven. And there's only one thing I can think of that fits that description, existence of yourself.

I don't believe that is true.

Some religous zealots left England for America, but that was 100+ years before the founding of the United States. We separated from England because of taxation, not religious idiologies. Almost all of the founding fathers are quite clear in the fact that the US was founded as a secular nation, not a religious one.

A Gallup poll says 89% of US persons believe in God. In our poll here, I'm not one of them.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/193271/americans-believe-god.aspx
 
I don't believe that is true.

From Google:

Belief systems are the stories we tell ourselves to define our personal sense of Reality.
-----------------
A belief system is a set of mutually supportive beliefs. The beliefs of any such system can be classified as religious, philosophical, political, ideological, or a combination of these.


Yes, you can classify beliefs as religious, philosophical, etc. But that does not mean that you cannot describe a philosophical belief as a religious belief, or a religion. It depends on how you want to define religion... narrowly (god, multiple gods), or broadly (faith-based beliefs).

If your belief is not proven, it was either mistakenly thought to be proven, or is faith-based. Nihilism is not proven, so belief (and I'm using that word strictly) in Nihilism can be faith-based. That's not to say that every practicing Nihilist is religious or believes in it with faith. You can be a practicing Nihilist without belief. You might even mistakenly believe that it's proven. It's very hard to consider yourself Christian without belief, without faith.
 
I don't believe that is true.



A Gallup poll says 89% of US persons believe in God. In our poll here, I'm not one of them.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/193271/americans-believe-god.aspx
What does that have to do with the ideals used to found this country? We "rule" under the constitution, not the commandments or bible. Tell me, does the constitution say America is a Christian nation... its cool. I'll wait....
 
These are the positive points I would like to make. I would like to discuss how they would be affected by the discovery of aliens in our solar system.

(O)ur national experiences with prosperity, material progress and peace through military might is at this time a seemingly useful and satisfying basis for our positive self-belief. Our nation is composed of large numbers of Christians, Mormons, skeptics and atheists. A smorgasbord of beliefs, even a few nihilists. All of our beliefs are supported by experience, and they are mostly positive.

As long as things are going well, pretty much any belief is acceptable. Belief may not really matter. Or else I'm saying American exceptionalism, capitalism and logical materialism is the greatest, most successful belief system on Earth.

Belief systems are the stories we tell ourselves to define our personal sense of Reality.
-----------------
A belief system is a set of mutually supportive beliefs. The beliefs of any such system can be classified as religious, philosophical, political, ideological, or a combination of these.
 
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"I painted myself into a corner, so I'm going to talk about aliens."
If you have any objections to the points I raised, then we should deal with them before considering any question of how our society's belief systems could be affected.

I would like to point out that the question is relevant, since the US government has confirmed the existence of unknown aerial phenomena, and aliens seem to be a plausible source of the phenomena.
 
I agree.


I object.
The founding of America has little to do with the basis required to discuss how new discoveries could affect current beliefs. It is necessary to understand and agree more or less what our current beliefs are. That I raised a point about the founding was irrelevant, off-topic and a waste of breath. I regret that, and I apologize. :guilty:
 
I got a bug up my butt about something, so I went here:

https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript

Once there, I used the browser search function and discovered the letter "g" appears 310 times on the page, though not necessarily in the document. Modifying the search for "go" and found 14 instances, "government" obviously appearing more than once. So I added a "d" to the search; care to guess how many times it appeared, on its own or as part of a larger and/or unrelated word? Here's a hint, the number can be indicated with five fingers.

zero-in-american-sign-language.jpg
 
I got a bug up my butt about something, so I went here:

https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript

Once there, I used the browser search function and discovered the letter "g" appears 310 times on the page, though not necessarily in the document. Modifying the search for "go" and found 14 instances, "government" obviously appearing more than once. So I added a "d" to the search; care to guess how many times it appeared, on its own or as part of a larger and/or unrelated word? Here's a hint, the number can be indicated with five fingers.

zero-in-american-sign-language.jpg
Yes, there is much more religious influence on our government than there should be. The (AATIP) government program to investigate UAP phenomena was established by Senator Harry Reid at the instigation and support of Senators John Glenn (astronaut), Daniel Inouye (Medal of Honor in WWII) and Ted Stevens (WWII bomber pilot). The funding was eventually ended by a number of Congressional lawmakers who had religious objections to the study of what they believed was satanic, or evil. There are said to be very substantial numbers of officers in the CIA and agents in the FBI who are deeply conservative and fundamentalist.
 
Fortunately, the secret US government study of the phenomena goes on. It has been going on for over 70 years under various guises and funding methods. It would be appropriate to mention the matter of classification of government secrets. Once documents are classified, the classification never expires, even after 50 or more years. There are 250,000 documents from the Eisenhower administration that remain classified. All officers attached to the CIA must sign a lifetime enforceable Secrecy Agreement Form 368 contract. Even so, retired CIA officers have been and continue to release information to researchers, and none have been jailed. A famous 1950 Canadian government Top Secret document stated the subject of UFOs was the most highly classified secret in the US. Since then, Canada has said nothing about the subject, but there has been a slow drip-drip-drip from the US. Here, the subject of UFOs, despite classification, is not covered up. But neither is it disclosed. What's been going on is somewhere in between. The recent change in the form of confirmation of the phenomena is a major change.
 
So, do you have an opinion?
Yeah, clearly. You said that the US was founded by religious zealots and freemasons. That isnt true. Some were masons, none were zealots, some were indeed athiests and had quite the disdain for religion as well. As such I said that our government was founded off of secular principles. You said religous, i said the constitution is my proof, whats yours, and you said....
W84BtfO.jpg

:odd:
My opinion is that you have no idea...
 
The CIA is concerned about deities:

September 14, 2017
God and Man at the CIA? Foreign Policy drags director's faith into analysis piece

https://www.getreligion.org/getreli...icy-drags-directors-faith-into-analysis-piece

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/09/08...uietly-killing-the-agencys-diversity-mandate/

Pompeo, an evangelical Christian, has said previously that Islamist terrorists will “continue to press against us until we make sure that we pray and stand and fight and make sure that we know that Jesus Christ is our savior is truly the only solution for our world.”The concerns are not that Pompeo is religious but that his religious convictions are bleeding over into the CIA.According to four sources familiar with the matter, Pompeo, who attends weekly Bible studies held in government buildings, referenced God and Christianity repeatedly in his first all-hands speech and in a recent trip report while traveling overseas. According to a profile by the Washington Post’s Greg Miller, Pompeo is working on starting a chaplaincy for the CIA campus like the military has.The CIA did not dispute these events. “Director Pompeo is a man of faith,” the spokesperson said. “The idea that he should not practice his faith because he is Director of CIA is absurd.”
 
Er, one zealot in a position of power does not mean the organisation is "concerned about deities". If anything, it sounds like the organisation is concerned about their management.

I'm pretty sure God is not on the management of the CIA.

I wish that your skepticism was due solely to my own shortcomings, which are many. But perhaps you would now openly prefer to excuse CIA religious torture techniques in favor of continued dismissal of one old miserable isolated iconoclast on a minor internet sub-forum? Why don't you simply ignore me? Or do I make such an easy target for ridicule that not a single point I ever make can be permitted acknowledgement as valid?

"(Former CIA Directory Michael) Hayden’s comments do show is that using religion as a weapon in prolonged psychological warfare was an actual “policy” – not a result of agents gone rogue. The goal was to create a burden so great that a person’s religious faith would be destroyed. Nothing could be further from our country’s founding principle."

https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/religion-cia-torture-report

The Senate Intelligence Committee's "Torture Report," the 500-page report which summarizes a 6,700 page classified report, was released today.

Even for those of us who follow the torture beat closely, this report contains significant new information and corroboration of previous suppositions. Among the most alarming findings is that a minimum of 20% of tortured detainees were wrongly detained, some in blatant cases of mistaken identity.

My own research on torture in U.S. detention facilities has emphasized the religious aspects of abuse ("The Secret Weapon" and "Disgrace"). And though today's report does not contain as much along these lines as did the Senate Armed Services Committee’s report in 2009, it does analyze assertions made by CIA Director Hayden in 2007 about the role of religion in "enhanced interrogation."

Hayden argued that the CIA’s experience with detainees and “their particular psychological profile” necessitated interrogation so burdensome that the detainees would consider themselves released from their religious obligations:

Perceiving themselves true believers in a religious war, detainees believe they are morally bound to resist until Allah has sent them a burden too great for them to withstand. At that point — and that point varies by detainee — their cooperation in their own heart and soul becomes blameless and they enter into this cooperative relationship with our debriefers.

… it varies how long it takes, but I gave you a week or two as the normal window in which we actually helped this religious zealot to get over his own personality and put himself in a spirit of cooperation. (485-86)

In fact, the Senate report found that only one detainee said anything about such a concept, and even his elliptical remarks seem like nothing more than reporting he had prayed for God’s guidance to cooperate. The report concludes, rather, that "there are no records of CIA detainees making these statements," the kind which suggest detainees had been moved to cooperation by having their religious faith broken. Furthermore, the idea of breaking a detainee’s religious faith was first suggested by “a walk-in,” a source [redacted] to advise the CIA about al-Qa’ida:

Allah apparently allows you to talk if you feel threatened. The [CIA] detainees never counted on being detained by us outside the U.S. and being subjected to methods they never dreamed of. (486)

Where did this "expert" advice come from? Like many other techniques described in today’s report, this one had never been tried in a real interrogation. It was reverse-engineered from SERE training for hypothetical situations, and the two psychologists contracted to develop the CIA’s program had never before participated in an actual interrogation.

One CIA officer testified in 2007 that Abu Zubaydah had actually thanked him for it, claiming that he told the officer: "you need to continue to do this [i.e., bringing religious faith to the breaking point] because I need to be able to live with who I am and I will continue to be the religious believing person I am, but you had to get me to the point where I could have absolution from my god to cooperate and deal with your questions. So he thanked us for bringing him to that point, beyond which he knew his religious beliefs absolved him from cooperating with us."

The Senate committee was supposed to believe that a cruelly tortured man had thanked his torturer for breaking his religious faith. It goes without saying that the Senate committee found, after scrutinizing over 6 million pages of documents, "no CIA records to support this testimony" (487 n. 2646).

During the same hearing, Sen. Nelson asked about Hayden's plans, if he suspected al-Qa’ida was training people to resist such techniques. His answer is chilling.

DIRECTOR HAYDEN: "You recall the policy on which this is based, that we're going to give him a burden that Allah says is too great for you to bear, so they can put the burden down." (487)

The new report does not describe the many techniques of religiously-themed abuse that I compiled from ex-detainee memoirs and interviews in 2007-08, nor does it extend our knowledge from the 2009 report, which admitted techniques such as forced prostration before an idol shrine to generate “religious disgrace.”

But what Hayden’s comments do show is that using religion as a weapon in prolonged psychological warfare was an actual “policy” – not a result of agents gone rogue.

The goal was to create a burden so great that a person’s religious faith would be destroyed. Nothing could be further from our country’s founding principle.
 
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