Do you believe in God?

[Scaff]

Welp, I've asked myself deep question like this before. I can't pretend that I have all the answers, but the general idea
that we are all just souls or spiritual beings here in physical vessels (bodies), and that we are basically here on a journey
of spiritual evolution seems to make sense to me as of right now. It's up to you whether you do so or not, but if you
research into that general idea, I'm sure you will find answers to your specific questions.

We all have a consciousness, which we don't fully understand, but we have no evidence to know or assume that it's capable of surviving our death.

For example

Why is it selective? The idea is that we are all souls all at different stages of evolution, some souls are at a certain point where certain growth is needed, and so these select souls will undergo such experiences where as others might not currently need to.

That seems to presume a life before we are born, which doesn't fit well with Christianity, I'm not aware of this being mentioned in the bible at all?

Who chooses? Again, the idea is that you as a soul plan out your life pre-birth, along with the major life events and challenges you will face during said lifetime.

We plan our lives out before we are born? Again I'm not aware of this being any part of Christian doctrine, why don't we remember this and why would anyone choose to suffer?

Why can't an all powerful being find a better way to achieve this aim than one that causes pain, suffering and death? I think the general idea is that there really is no good or bad from the souls point of view, there is simply just different experiences to be had.

Do you honestly believe that? Would you willingly accept being tortured every day of your life if you had the option to avoid it.

Going through experiences that causes us pain or suffering, allows us to appreciate the experiences that give us joy that much more. Say you're born in a completely white room and spend all of your life there, how would you ever really know what white was without something different from it to contrast it to? The only way you would know what white is would be to experience something that is in contrast to the white.

So by that logic people who are causing us pain and suffering are actually doing gods work, allowing use to be able to know joy?


This all of course only works if your are right that we have soul and that it transcends our death. What if your wrong?

 

[Ghost Lap]

This all of course only works if your are right that we have soul and that it transcends our death. What if your wrong?

Well of course I could always be wrong, but I believe in my heart that I'm onto something. All I can say is that if you're really that interested into the topic, you could look into it yourself, I don't follow the Christian doctrine or any other major religions btw.

If you really do want to get deeper into it though, I'd recommend checking out someone like Aaron Abke on YouTube, specifically his playlist called The Law of One. Again it requires a very open mind to be willing to look into these kinds of things, for example the idea of spiritual channeling, since supposedly the Law of One is a channeled material.

There's also countless amounts of NDE stories to watch on YouTube, which I find myself to be very interesting and eye opening, but again it's up to you to look deeper into it.

 

[Danoff]

Welp, I've asked myself deep question like this before. I can't pretend that I have all the answers, but the general idea
that we are all just souls or spiritual beings here in physical vessels (bodies), and that we are basically here on a journey
of spiritual evolution seems to make sense to me as of right now. It's up to you whether you do so or not, but if you
research into that general idea, I'm sure you will find answers to your specific questions.

For example

Why is it selective? The idea is that we are all souls all at different stages of evolution, some souls are at a certain point where certain growth is needed, and so these select souls will undergo such experiences where as others might not currently need to.

Who chooses? Again, the idea is that you as a soul plan out your life pre-birth, along with the major life events and challenges you will face during said lifetime.

Why can't an all powerful being find a better way to achieve this aim than one that causes pain, suffering and death? I think the general idea is that there really is no good or bad from the souls point of view, there is simply just different experiences to be had.
Going through experiences that causes us pain or suffering, allows us to appreciate the experiences that give us joy that much more. Say you're born in a completely white room and spend all of your life there, how would you ever really know what white was without something different from it to contrast it to? The only way you would know what white is would be to experience something that is in contrast to the white.

Are we seeing how quickly we get from "I don't know where the big bang came from" to lots of really complicated not-quite-making-sense made up stuff like "when your soul is born, a plan is laid out, and that plan includes rape"?

 

[Scaff]

Well of course I could always be wrong, but I believe in my heart that I'm onto something. All I can say is that if you're really that interested into the topic, you could look into it yourself, I don't follow the Christian doctrine or any other major religions btw.

I have, I'm a humanist.

If you really do want to get deeper into it though, I'd recommend checking out someone like Aaron Abke on YouTube, specifically his playlist called The Law of One. Again it requires a very open mind to be willing to look into these kinds of things, for example the idea of spiritual channeling, since supposedly the Law of One is a channeled material.

Again I have, none of them stand up to scrutiny, and all require blind faith. Should the evidence for that change I'm more than happy to look at that.

There's also countless amounts of NDE stories to watch on YouTube, which I find myself to be very interesting and eye opening, but again it's up to you to look deeper into it.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't really support a great deal unfortunately.

 

[Ghost Lap]

Well I've at least tried to answer your questions as best as I can, so going back to my original comment.

Why would God not let it happen? You still haven't given me a valid reasoning other than you thinking that things such as rape, murder, child abuse etc all are terrible, and that because you think they are terrible, you simply assume that God can't be real because you assume that God wouldn't possibly allow such things to happen.

Are we seeing how quickly we get from "I don't know where the big bang came from" to lots of really complicated not-quite-making-sense made up stuff like "when your soul is born, a plan is laid out, and that plan includes rape"?

Yep, I've already stated that I believe the Big Bang to have ultimately come from God, and yes I believe in the soul and the idea of a pre-birth plan, which could possibly include experiences such as rape. And to answer another comment above, asking me if I think that people committing acts such as rape and murder are doing God's work. Ultimately yes, as crazy as it sounds, I believe there is a greater purpose to everything, even acts such as murder etc.

 

[Scaff]

Well I've at least tried to answer your questions as best as I can, so going back to my original comment.

Why would God not let it happen? You still haven't given me a valid reasoning other than you thinking that things such as rape, murder, child abuse etc all are terrible, and that because you think they are terrible, you simply assume that God can't be real because you assume that God wouldn't possibly allow such things to happen.

You've either not read what I wrote or deliberately misinterpreted it, as that categorically is not what I said at all.

What I said is that if a god exist that allows terrible things to happen then they too are cruel, and as such would not be worthy of praise from myself.

The reason why I do not think a god (in whatever form) exists has nothing to do with that. The utter and complete absence of any verifiable evidence of existence is behind that, should anyone be able to provide any I am happy to re-evaluate my position.

 

[Danoff]

Yep, I've already stated that I believe the Big Bang to have ultimately come from God, and yes I believe in the soul and the idea of a pre-birth plan, which could possibly include experiences such as rape. And to answer another comment above, asking me if I think that people committing acts such as rape and murder are doing God's work. Ultimately yes, as crazy as it sounds, I believe there is a greater purpose to everything, even acts such as murder etc.

You don't know where the big bang came from, and that's why you think people choose their own rape and murder.

Amazing what some people can twist themselves into. That's one hell of a victim blame based on a fallacious argument from ignorance.

 

[Famine]

You don't know where the big bang came from, and that's why you think people choose their own rape and murder.

Amazing what some people can twist themselves into. That's one hell of a victim blame based on a fallacious argument from ignorance.

It occurs to me that this is exactly how priests who **** kids think. And other people who preach a good Christian attitude in public but appear in Epstein's book.

"God wants me to **** this kid, or else I couldn't do it. It's His Plan, to help this child's soul grow."

 

[Ghost Lap]

What I said is that if a god exist that allows terrible things to happen then they too are cruel, and as such would not be worthy of praise from myself.

That's because as I said, you're very closed minded and to say that if God exists and allows bad things to happen, that God is cruel is simply just your opinion, not a verifiable scientific proof as you like to preach on about.

 

[Danoff]

That's because as I said, you're very closed minded and to say that if God exists and allows bad things to happen, that God is cruel is simply just your opinion, not a verifiable scientific proof as you like to preach on about.

ie: "if it happens, it's moral"

Why do religious people think they're purveyors of morality again?

This is the hilarious moral problem that religious people find themselves in. God, being the source of all morality, cannot do anything immoral. Therefore, all of the pain and suffering on earth must be AT LEAST moral for god to allow - because morality comes from god. You cannot call god cruel, or immoral, or unjust, based on anything that happens simply because it actually happened and therefore must be ok for god to allow. This circular reasoning absolutely demolishes all sense of morality and can be used to justify horrible acts (and has been in this thread).

 

[Famine]

That's because as I said, you're very closed minded and to say that if God exists and allows bad things to happen, that God is cruel is simply just your opinion, not a verifiable scientific proof as you like to preach on about.

It'd be a theory - an explanation for all tested knowledge and observed evidence on the subject - not a proof.

 

[Scaff]

That's because as I said, you're very closed minded

Absolutely nothing about that indicates me being closed minded, stop using this as your (poor) go to defence.

and to say that if God exists and allows bad things to happen, that God is cruel is simply just your opinion, not a verifiable scientific proof as you like to preach on about.

It's a logical deduction based on the data provided in this hypothetical scenario.

If you were perfectly able to stop someone being tortured and you chose not to then it's reasonable to conclude that your reasons for doing so are that you are fine with them being tortured.

You also don't seem to be able to understand the difference between a hypothetical scenario and proof of existence, but we will just add that to the list.

 

[Ghost Lap]

ie: "if it happens, it's moral"

Why do religious people think they're purveyors of morality again?

It's not really a case of "if it happens, it's moral". It's more like a case of if it happens then it happens, the ideas of "good" and "bad" are simply just projections of our minds. Beyond the mind there is no good or bad, there is simply just experience.

 

[Scaff]

It's not really a case of "if it happens, it's moral". It's more like a case of if it happens then it happens, the ideas of "good" and "bad" are simply just projections of our minds. Beyond the mind there is no good or bad, there is simply just experience.

So you're 100% fine with people suffering? Then why did you acknowledge that it's terrible in an earlier post?

 

[Ghost Lap]

It'd be a theory - an explanation for all tested knowledge and observed evidence on the subject - not a proof.

It would be a theory, based on your current and very limited perception as a human being.

 

[Danoff]

It's not really a case of "if it happens, it's moral". It's more like a case of if it happens then it happens, the ideas of "good" and "bad" are simply just projections of our minds. Beyond the mind there is no good or bad, there is simply just experience.

Why would we go "beyond the mind" when we're discussing morality?

It's ok to claim that if an omnipotent god were to exist, that god is cruel to allow pain and suffering. Because that pain and suffering is experienced from within a mind.

 

[Famine]

It would be a theory, based on your current and very limited perception as a human being.

Not... really, no. This is where you missed the point with the three questions posted earlier.

 

[Scaff]

It would be a theory, based on your current and very limited perception as a human being.

Still don't understand 'theory' I see

 

[Ghost Lap]

So you're 100% fine with people suffering? Then why did you acknowledge that it's terrible in an earlier post?

It's not really that I acknowledged that people suffering is terrible, it's just that I'm trying to speak to you on a human to human level of perception. Like I said, the things that we think are terrible from our limited perceptions, are clearly not terrible when seen from God's unlimited perception.

It doesn't really matter what I think about suffering, I suffer myself everyday, but I acknowledge that people do suffer and so God must be allowing the suffering to happen for a reason. I just don't think the reason God allows for suffering to happen is simply because God is cruel.

 

[Danoff]

Like I said, the things that we think are terrible from our limited perceptions

In other words, they're terrible. Your perceptions are how you determine what is terrible. You don't figure out if you're suffering by asking a tree.

 

[Ghost Lap]

In other words, they're terrible. Your perceptions are how you determine what is terrible. You don't figure out if you're suffering by asking a tree.

In other words, our perceptions are very limited. So we may perceive certain things to be terrible, but from a higher point of perception, say the perception of God, they are clearly seen as necessary otherwise God would not allow them to happen.

 

[Danoff]

In other words, our perceptions are very limited.

Compared to what? The perceptions of the thing you invented to explain the big bang? How is that relevant? Presumably, the god you're talking about can't suffer. So how can it weigh on the real suffering that people really experience. The fact that something else might not suffer does not negate the actual suffering that people with actual perceptions experience.

So we may perceive certain things to be terrible, but from a higher point of perception, say the perception of God, they are clearly seen as necessary otherwise God would not allow them to happen.

Purely circular, devoid of morality, can be used to justify unspeakably horrible acts, and entirely based on nothing but ignorance of where the universe came from. You have zero reason to presume all of this, and it's twisted and gross, and I have no idea why you like to think it - but you have no actual reason to.

 

[Scaff]

It's not really that I acknowledged that people suffering is terrible,

This paints you in a very disturbing light

it's just that I'm trying to speak to you on a human to human level of perception.

That's all we have, as such you agree it's terrible.

Like I said, the things that we think are terrible from our limited perceptions, are clearly not terrible when seen from God's unlimited perception.

Which both assumes that a god exists and also assumes you understand god. That seems to be a great deal of projection.

It doesn't really matter what I think about suffering, I suffer myself everyday, but I acknowledge that people do suffer and so God must be allowing the suffering to happen for a reason. I just don't think the reason God allows for suffering to happen is simply because God is cruel.

You seem to be speaking for your god a lot here, how do you know this, or what leads you to this conclusion? What is it actually based on?

 

[Benny44]

This is an interesting discussion. I'm not going back through 758 pages, so I apologize if this has already been addressed.

I think a lot equate Christianity with the Bible and, in turn, belief in God. But, in my own studies of the Bible, Christianity is far from listening to much of the Bible. A soul that survives death? Not what the Bible teaches. God wanted an angel in heaven? What type of god, who is supposed to be loving, would do that?? That makes no sense. If he wanted an angel, surely he could just create another one. That kind of stuff irritates me.

I think the question of 'if there is a god, why is there suffering?' is a good one. I mean, the Bible clearly says 'with evil things god cannot be tried, nor can he try anyone'. So, if there is suffering it logically makes sense that the god of the Bible is not in charge.

I realize this little post is sort of precluding belief in God. Personally, I do believe in God. But not the one that's in charge of these 'christian' religions, that's for sure (I'll add, I am Christian, just not one who follows major religions)

 

[Scaff]

In other words, our perceptions are very limited. So we may perceive certain things to be terrible, but from a higher point of perception, say the perception of God, they are clearly seen as necessary otherwise God would not allow them to happen.

Or god is cruel and indifferent to our suffering

 

[Danoff]

So, if there is suffering it logically makes sense that the god of the Bible is not in charge.

The god of the bible actively causes a lot of suffering in the bible, and encourages people to commit atrocities. Perhaps you're thinking of the new testament, but the god of the new testament is still the god that did all of the stuff in the OT.

 

[Ghost Lap]

You seem to be speaking for your god a lot here, how do you know this, or what leads you to this conclusion? What is it actually based on?

Well suffering is a fact of life, people suffer, that at least we can both agree on. As for what my conclusion is based upon, I've already given you my answers to this above.

 

[Scaff]

Well suffering is a fact of life, people suffer, that at least we can both agree on.

Indeed, but you don't actually seem to think it's a bad thing that people suffer, in fact you seem to believe that those who cause suffering are doing gods work.

As for what my conclusion is based upon, I've already given you my answers to this above.

No you haven't. You've referenced a lot of unsubstantiated pseudoscience, but none of it has been of any substance.

 

[Ghost Lap]

Indeed, but you don't actually seem to think it's a bad thing that people suffer, in fact you seem to believe that those who cause suffering are doing gods work.

No you haven't. You've referenced a lot of unsubstantiated pseudoscience, but none of it has been of any substance.

What I think is that ultimately suffering serves a greater purpose, that being that it helps the soul to grow and evolve.

And I have given my answers, if you think its a load of pseudoscience well then that's your business, but I have given my answers.

 

[Danoff]

What I think is that ultimately suffering serves a greater purpose, that being that it helps the soul to grow and evolve.

You think this based on.... um... what? That you don't know where the big bang came from? I have no idea why you think this. It is, by the way, as has been pointed out to you, and you even seem to have admitted yourself, ludicrous. Watch how sheepishly you acknowledge that what you're saying is absurd.

And to answer another comment above, asking me if I think that people committing acts such as rape and murder are doing God's work. Ultimately yes, as crazy as it sounds, I believe there is a greater purpose to everything, even acts such as murder etc.

The amazing part is that this thing, which you have trouble saying with a straight face because it's immoral and absurd, is also completely at odds with all evidence. There is nothing requiring you to think this, and that's good because it's awful.