Do you believe in God?

[Scaff]

What I think is that ultimately suffering serves a greater purpose, that being that it helps the soul to grow and evolve.

So you're happy for people to suffer when they need not, I mean that seems to be what you're saying, but you also seem to be trying to skirt around actually saying that, perhaps because you know it's a huge red-flag.

as @Danoff has said, this kind of worldview leads quite easily to the justification of a whole host of atrocities.

And I have given my answers, if you think its a load of pseudoscience well then that's your business, but I have given my answers.

Given that none of it can be supported that's exactly what it is. Chakras, Ra, Rule of One, all falls firmly into that category, and that's what you have been advocating as justification for people suffering without need.

It's Mother Terresa levels of nonsense, and poundshop Scientology

 

[Daz555]

What I think is that ultimately suffering serves a greater purpose, that being that it helps the soul to grow and evolve.

That's the kind of thing this evil witch would have said.

 

[Scaff]

That's the kind of thing this evil witch would have said.

View attachment 1122713

100% this.

Justifying the suffering of others is immoral.

 

[Ghost Lap]

So you're happy for people to suffer when they need not, I mean that seems to be what you're saying, but you also seem to be trying to skirt around actually saying that, perhaps because you know it's a huge red-flag.

as @Danoff has said, this kind of worldview leads quite easily to the justification of a whole host of atrocities.

Given that none of it can be supported that's exactly what it is. Chakras, Ra, Rule of One, all falls firmly into that category, and that's what you have been advocating as justification for people suffering without need.

It's Mother Terresa levels of nonsense, and poundshop Scientology

It's not that I myself am happy for people to suffer, what I'm saying is that if God is real he clearly allows for suffering to happen, and that I don't think that its simply because God is cruel and evil. I actually think God allows people to suffer for a good reason, not because God is cruel. The idea that suffering helps the soul to grow and evolve makes sense at least for me as of right now, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Scaff]

It's not that I myself am happy for people to suffer, what I'm saying is that if God is real he clearly allows for suffering to happen, and that I don't think that its simply because God is cruel and evil. I actually think God allows people to suffer for a good reason, not because God is cruel. The idea that suffering helps the soul to grow and evolve makes sense at least for me as of right now, that's all I'm saying.

It makes zero sense at all.

If your god is all powerful, and as you believe they have always existed and brought everything into creation, then they are most certainly all powerful. Then an all powerful god is more than capable of helping peoples souls grow and evolve without suffering at all.

So either your god is ok with people suffering without need or is not actually all powerful.

 

[Danoff]

It's not that I myself am happy for people to suffer, what I'm saying is that if God is real he clearly allows for suffering to happen, and that I don't think that its simply because God is cruel and evil. I actually think God allows people to suffer for a good reason, not because God is cruel. The idea that suffering helps the soul to grow and evolve makes sense at least for me as of right now, that's all I'm saying.

Setting aside how awful that idea is, and it truly is for reasons that you seem to refuse to tackle... you're still ignoring other possibilities for no apparent reason. One possibility is that your god is just cruel. Another possibility is that your god is indifferent. Another possibility is that your god is imaginary. You haven't provided any rationale for selecting between these. You just picked one and went with it.

 

[Ghost Lap]

It makes zero sense at all.

If your god is all powerful, and as you believe he has always been and brought everything into creation, then they are most certainly all powerful. Then an all powerful god is more than capable of helping peoples souls grow and evolve without suffering at all.

So either your god is ok with people suffering without need or is not actually all powerful.

Or maybe it's that because God is infinite, that within God exists infinite possibilities. Possibilities that might even perhaps allow for a soul to experience suffering and gain growth from it?

 

[Danoff]

Possibilities that might even perhaps allow for a soul to experience suffering and gain growth from it?

I don't think anyone here is arguing that it is impossible to grow from suffering. That's a strawman.

 

[Scaff]

Setting aside how awful that idea is, and it truly is for reasons that you seem to refuse to tackle... you're still ignoring other possibilities for no apparent reason. One possibility is that your god is just cruel. Another possibility is that your god is indifferent. Another possibility is that your god is imaginary. You haven't provided any rationale for selecting between these. You just picked one and went with it.

What @Ghost Lap is choosing to believe is basically dime-store Scientology, it's little more than a cult.

The Law of One Explained

In this conversation Aaron maps out The Law of One material and explains RA’s message to humanity. The Law of One is a philosophy for the...

wisdomfromnorth.com

 

[Ghost Lap]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that it is impossible to grow from suffering. That's a strawman.

Well there you go then, so maybe it's a possibility that suffering might actually serve a greater purpose than what it appears to be on a surface level?

 

[Scaff]

Or maybe it's that because God is infinite, that within God exists infinite possibilities. Possibilities that might even perhaps allow for a soul to experience suffering and gain growth from it?

That would mean that your god has deliberately designed a system that allows us to inflict unbearable suffering and pain on each other when they didn't have to

No matter which way you cut it, you are advocating for abuse, pain, torture, rape, murder and every other form of abuse and atrocity.

Well there you go then, so maybe it's a possibility that suffering might actually serve a greater purpose than what it appears to be on a surface level?

No, because much better ways to achieve the same thing exist, ones that don't require suffering.

Your god chooses not to use them, and as such can only be described as cruel.

 

[Danoff]

Well there you go then, so maybe it's a possibility that suffering might actually serve a greater purpose than what it appears to be on a surface level?

"Serve a greater purpose"? I don't know about that. But yes, people can make good out of bad. Nobody argued otherwise.

What you're arguing is that no bad exists, good ALWAYS comes from bad. That bad is ultimately good, inescapably. And that's plainly wrong, and you're going to extreme lengths to try to make it so.

 

[Ghost Lap]

That would mean that your god has deliberately designed a system that allows us to inflict unbearable suffering and pain on each other when they have to power to not do.

No matter which way you cut it, you are advocating for abuse, pain, torture, rape, murder and every other form of abuse and atrocity.

I'm not advocating for abuse and atrocity, I just acknowledge that it is a part of reality whether I like it or not, and I'm open to believing that the suffering that people experience is ultimately for a greater good.

 

[Danoff]

I'm not advocating for abuse and atrocity, I just acknowledge that it is a part of reality whether I like it or not, and I'm open to believing that the suffering that people experience is ultimately for a greater good.

"Greater"... you mean specifically for THEIR OWN good.

"You got raped and murdered, but it was for your own good".

Totally awful. Also, no reason to think it.

 

[Scaff]

I'm not advocating for abuse and atrocity, I just acknowledge that it is a part of reality whether I like it or not, and I'm open to believing that the suffering that people experience is ultimately for a greater good.

You've literally described it as being required for the growth and evolution of the soul, you've said that if it happens it's because people needed it! I hate to break it to you but that's advocating for it.

You've also defended it as being part of a higher purpose (by a god that could have chosen a different route), which is once again advocating for it.

 

[Ghost Lap]

"Greater"... you mean specifically for THEIR OWN good.

"You got raped and murdered, but it was for your own good".

Totally awful. Also, no reason to think it.

No, I do actually mean specifically for a greater good.

 

[Scaff]

No, I do actually mean specifically for a greater good.

That's not what you claimed earlier at all

The idea is that we are all souls all at different stages of evolution, some souls are at a certain point where certain growth is needed, and so these select souls will undergo such experiences where as others might not currently need to.

You claimed it was also for their own growth, i.e. their own good. In fact you went further than that and claimed they actually chose to suffer in these ways.

Who chooses? Again, the idea is that you as a soul plan out your life pre-birth, along with the major life events and challenges you will face during said lifetime.

 

[Danoff]

No, I do actually mean specifically for a greater good.

Well then it's a completely new argument. Now you're saying that some souls are unfortunate enough to be sacrificial for the benefit of the rest? So for some souls, their suffering is not for their own benefit but for the benefit of... god? the other souls? You're in new territory here.

"You got raped and murdered, but it made the rest of us appreciate not being raped and murdered. So it's worth it"

 

[Ghost Lap]

You've literally described it as being required for the growth and evolution of the soul, you've said that if it happens it's because people needed it! I hate to break it to you but that's advocating for it.

You've also defended it as being part of a higher purpose (by a god that could have chosen a different route), which is once again advocating for it.

Okay let me break it down for you. I acknowledge that suffering is a part of reality, do I like it? No, but the fact is is that people experience suffering. I'd like to believe that God allows for people to suffer ultimately for a greater good, so I guess you could say that I'm not advocating for it, but clearly God is because suffering happens.

The difference between us here is that you would view God to be cruel to allow for suffering, where as I don't see it to be that way.

That's not what you claimed earlier at all



You claimed it was also for their own growth, i.e. their own good. In fact you went further than that and claimed they actually chose to suffer in these ways.

Yes, their own souls growth, but if you've probably looked into this kind of stuff, you realize that there's different levels to spiritual teachings. At one level it's for the souls own growth, but at a higher level of understanding it is known that all is essentially one, all is God basically. So we are all essentially parts of God, so if you look at it that way, it is ultimately indeed for the greater good.

 

[Scaff]

Okay let me break it down for you. I acknowledge that suffering is a part of reality, do I like it? No, but the fact is is that people experience suffering. I'd like to believe that God allows for people to suffer ultimately for a greater good, so I guess you could say that I'm not advocating for it, but clearly God is because suffering happens.

You are still advocating for it.

The only way to not advocate for it would be to demand that it stop, your failure to denounce it is advocacy.

Oh and if your god advocates for suffering then they are cruel.

The difference between us here is that you would view God to be cruel to allow for suffering, where as I don't see it to be that way.

The your god is not all powerful and not god or they are cruel. How can a being that brought all of life and the universe into existence not be able to find a better way. Based on your claims they have all the power required to chose an alternative that doesn't see kids raped, that they don't chose to do so makes them cruel.

Either they can't, in which case they are not god, or the chose not to, in which case they are cruel.

 

[Danoff]

Yes, their own souls growth, but if you've probably looked into this kind of stuff, you realize that there's different levels to spiritual teachings. At one level it's for the souls own growth, but at a higher level of understanding it is known that all is essentially one, all is God basically. So we are all essentially parts of God, so if you look at it that way, it is ultimately indeed for the greater good.

So god needs to grow? What kind of god are we talking about here that needs to grow? And how does god grow from hurting itself?

 

[Ghost Lap]

You are still advocating for it.

The only way to not advocate for it would be to demand that it stop, your failure to denounce it is advocacy.

Oh and if your god advocates for suffering then they are cruel.


The your god is not all powerful. How can a being that brought all of life and the universe into existence not be able to find a better way. Based on your claims they have all the power required to chose an alternative that doesn't see kids raped, that they don't chose to do so makes them cruel.

Either they can't in which case they are not god, or the chose not to, in which case they are cruel.

I'm not advocating for suffering, I'm just accepting that it is a part of life, whether we like it or not. If you want to believe that only a cruel God would allow suffering though then that's your business I guess.

 

[Scaff]

Yes, their own souls growth, but if you've probably looked into this kind of stuff, you realize that there's different levels to spiritual teachings. At one level it's for the souls own growth, but at a higher level of understanding it is known that all is essentially one, all is God basically. So we are all essentially parts of God, so if you look at it that way, it is ultimately indeed for the greater good.

Hold on, If we are all one, and all one with god then individual souls do not need to be tortured and suffer to grow, we are a collective and would share gods soul with no requirement for further growth (unless an all powerful god still needs to grow - which would be absurd).

That makes individual suffering even more unrequired and cruel.

I'm not advocating for suffering, I'm just accepting that it is a part of life, whether we like it or not.

Condemn your god for causing it or your advocating it, it's really that binary.

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor." - Desmond Tutu

"We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." Elie Wiesel

If you want to believe that only a cruel God would allow suffering though then that's your business I guess.

That's the only logical conclusion possible based on your own claims.

 

[Ghost Lap]

So god needs to grow? What kind of god are we talking about here that needs to grow? And how does god grow from hurting itself?

The idea is that God is all that there is, and God wants to explore itself I guess, because it literally has nothing else to do, since it is all that there is. Having souls come down into all that is and experiencing things allows for God to have these experiences, since all souls are fragments of God. Like I said, there's different levels to spiritual teachings, but the general idea is that God is all that there is. So you could view this universe as sort of like a video game for God, the physical universe is a way through which God can just have experiences of things.

 

[Danoff]

The idea is that God is all that there is, and God wants to explore itself I guess, because it literally has nothing else to do, since it is all that there is. Having souls come down into all that is and experiencing things allows for God to have these experiences, since all souls are fragments of God. Like I said, there's different levels to spiritual teachings, but the general idea is that God is all that there is. So you could view this universe as sort of like a video game for God, the physical universe is a way through which can just have experiences of things.

This is not an omnipotent god which absolutely begs the question of where it came from.

Let's keep in mind where all of this came from, that we cannot observe beyond a point in the big bang due to quantum mechanics. That ignorance, that lack of knowledge, does not supply us with the notion that a non-omnipotent god is raping and killing parts of itself because it's bored.

 

[Scaff]

So you could view this universe as sort of like a video game for God, the physical universe is a way through which God can just have experiences of things.

So god makes us suffer because they need something to do?

Doubling down on this nonsense just makes it worse, it really does.

Oh and as @Danoff has said, a being that needs that could not have created everything.

 

[Ghost Lap]

This is not an omnipotent god which absolutely begs the question of where it came from.

When I say that God is all that there is, I'm basically trying to say that God it is infinite, so how could it not be omnipotent.

As for where God came from, I already answered this a few day back. God didn't come from anything, there isn't anything that is beyond God, God is infinite and all that there is. God always has been and always will be.

 

[Scaff]

When I say that God is all that there is, I'm basically trying to say that God it is infinite, so how could it not be omnipotent.

As for where God came from, I already answered this a few day back. God didn't come from anything, there isn't anything that is beyond God, God is infinite and all that there is. God always has been and always will be.

The god is all powerful and choosing not to grow and evolve our souls without suffering.

By your own argument, your God is cruel.

 

[Ghost Lap]

So god makes us suffer because they need something to do?

Doubling down on this nonsense just makes it worse, it really does.

Oh and as @Danoff has said, a being that needs that could not have created everything.

God is us and we are God, ultimately there is no "us", there is only God. There is only the illusion of "us" as being separate entities from one another, ultimately all entities are just part of the whole that is God. There is only the illusion of "us" suffering, ultimately its all just God experiencing itself, because what else is there for God to do?

 

[Scaff]

God is us and we are God, ultimately there is no "us", there is only God. There is only the illusion of "us" as being separate entities from one another, ultimately all entities are just part of the whole that is God. There is only the illusion of "us" suffering, ultimately its all just God experiencing itself, because what else is there for God to do?

In which case no souls need to be evolved or grow and god is causing suffering for its own amusement.

Oh and you just advocated for suffering, again.