Do you believe in God?

[HenrySwanson]

I have stated that I believe in God the Father, or Elohim. On the basis of my personal belief, I guess. (shrug)

I wasn't being facetious when I asked about hallucinations.

I'm just wondering whether you've ever entertained that as an explanation, and why you dismissed it.

 

[TexRex]

Maybe this should go in the dumb questions thread.

But how does heaven work? (i do not believe in a god myself, but interested to see how people that do believe handle my next question.)

Do children who die, age in heaven. Or do they stay the same age.
If so, at what age do they stop aging?
Same goes for adults who die at a young age.

It seems to me this is subject to specific religion delusion.

I remember asking this question when I was in Catholic school and the nun teaching our religion class seemed offended by it.

Yeah, that sounds about right. Orthodoxy is meant to be accepted without question.

 

[UKMikey]

I remember asking this question when I was in Catholic school and the nun teaching our religion class seemed offended by it.

Yeah, that sounds about right. Orthodoxy is meant to be accepted without question.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

If pre-born 'children' and children under (8?) get a free pass into heaven, who brings them up? A child is shaped as much by their upbringing as they are by their genetics. If a pre-born 'child' is granted an upbringing in heaven whilst their own parents are still shuffling along the mortal coil, i assume they're being brought up by strangers? By the time their parents arrive, if they even do, that child will have grown up a relative stranger, probably with a completely different set of beliefs. May may not even like their natural parents. Its like heavenly adoption or fostering. I can see many potential problems with this concept/scenario.

There will be a resurrection where the people who will be taking care of the children, etc., will be given the gift of immortality. Then, the parents of the children in question will be given the chance to raise their child to maturity.

Families are the MOST important part of an eternal existence, as they are in mortality.

Maybe this should go in the dumb questions thread.

But how does heaven work? (i do not believe in a god myself, but interested to see how people that do believe handle my next question.)

Do children who die, age in heaven. Or do they stay the same age.
If so, at what age do they stop aging?
Same goes for adults who die at a young age.

The simple answer is that there is eternal growth and learning. The more complex answer has to do with the why and how. But I'll answer that separately if you want that answer.

Edited to add: I was reminded of this video, and knew I should share it, but I didn't put it up. It's never good to ignore promptings:

I'm not a biblical scholar by any means nor am I Christian, but Thomas Acquinis made the argument that we will be 33 years old in heaven because that's the age Jesus was supposedly when he died and then climbed the stairway to heaven. Some also believe that we will get to choose our age when we get to heaven or that we will merely appear how we want to appear.

I remember asking this question when I was in Catholic school and the nun teaching our religion class seemed offended by it.

I don't think that is the best answer, but it's not bad. I feel that our bodies will be in their most prime condition that they ever could have been. But that's not for me to decide.

I wasn't being facetious when I asked about hallucinations.

I'm just wondering whether you've ever entertained that as an explanation, and why you dismissed it.

I was a bit surprised that you asked that, and I didn't want to get into an involved question. Thank you for clarifying.

I have never considered the experiences that I have had with messages from God (or, quite honestly, satan) to be hallucinations. They really do happen. It's just up to us to decide to follow whichever one.

Edit to add:

The idea that understanding God, or any gospel or "gospel", is more important than being a good person and caring about those around you (or simply communicate with) is sick, demented, and twisted.

In the end, the direction you face and the intentions you live for are more important than whether or not you believe much of anything.

But, like it says in Luke 12:47-48 (basically) If you know and accept, you will be held accountable for that.

 

[HenrySwanson]

I have never considered the experiences that I have had with messages from God (or, quite honestly, satan) to be hallucinations. They really do happen. It's just up to us to decide to follow whichever one.

What you describe sounds like this:

Shoulder angel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why can't it simply be your conscience talking? What specific references make you believe that it is God/Satan?

 

[TRLWNC7396]

What you describe sounds like this:

Shoulder angel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why can't it simply be your conscience talking? What specific references make you believe that it is God/Satan?

That is an interesting question, and the simple answer is that there is always a different feeling to it.

 

[HenrySwanson]

That is an interesting question, and the simple answer is that there is always a different feeling to it.

When you "hear" it, does it sound like a voice, or is it like an internal monologue (i.e. thoughts)?

If it is a voice, what does it sound like? Is there a different voice for "God" and "Satan"?

 

[TRLWNC7396]

When you "hear" it, does it sound like a voice, or is it like an internal monologue (i.e. thoughts)?

If it is a voice, what does it sound like? Is there a different voice for "God" and "Satan"?

It depends. Sometimes it is a feeling, sometimes it is a memory, sometimes (very rarely) it is a voice.

Usually, if it is a voice, it is rather quiet. That makes it hard to tell more than that it is a voice. But the feeling with it is VERY different. God brings peace. Satan never can. Literally. He has no peace, and never will.

 

[TheCracker]

There will be a resurrection where the people who will be taking care of the children, etc., will be given the gift of immortality. Then, the parents of the children in question will be given the chance to raise their child to maturity.

Families are the MOST important part of an eternal existence, as they are in mortality.

The simple answer is that there is eternal growth and learning. The more complex answer has to do with the why and how. But I'll answer that separately if you want that answer.

I don't think that is the best answer, but it's not bad. I feel that our bodies will be in their most prime condition that they ever could have been. But that's not for me to decide.

Okay. I get that this, and the prime age thing, and it would be the most ideal resolution, but i fear that none of this is cannon, i don't believe it's written in scripture, so really it's just an educated guess at best. Chances are, if there is a heaven, then we have no real idea to how it all works in regards to families and ages etc.

Kind of like booking a holiday/vacation off the back of a vague recommendation without doing the research yourself. It might be great, but it may well not live up to expectations at all.

 

[Ghost Lap]

I think that life in general is hard, no one has it easy down here despite how it may appear from the outside. I personally believe that it's because to be down here is to be away from your true home, that's just what I feel in my heart but hey what do I know? 😉

 

[Famine]

God brings peace. Satan never can. Literally. He has no peace, and never will.

Wasn't Satan an angel?

Also is he not "the great deceiver"? What better way to deceive than to make men write all these diluted translations of holy books that give clear descriptions of what he is and is not, then pose as the thing the books say he isn't by whispering things in your head that give you peaceful thoughts? Not least because peace brings pleasure and pleasure is a sin (at least according to the holy books that Satan may have written through deceiving the men that wrote them).

 

[HenrySwanson]

Wasn't Satan an angel?

Also is he not "the great deceiver"? What better way to deceive than to make men write all these diluted translations of holy books that give clear descriptions of what he is and is not, then pose as the thing the books say he isn't by whispering things in your head that give you peaceful thoughts? Not least because peace brings pleasure and pleasure is a sin (at least according to the holy books that Satan may have written through deceiving the men that wrote them).

Yes, I'd like to know why this universe can't all be the workings of an "evil genius".

Or whether these experiences are from the antichrist....

 

[TRLWNC7396]

Okay. I get that this, and the prime age thing, and it would be the most ideal resolution, but i fear that none of this is cannon, i don't believe it's written in scripture, so really it's just an educated guess at best. Chances are, if there is a heaven, then we have no real idea to how it all works in regards to families and ages etc.

Kind of like booking a holiday/vacation off the back of a vague recommendation without doing the research yourself. It might be great, but it may well not live up to expectations at all.

It depends on what you choose to believe. We believe that there has been more information given to the leaders of our church, starting with Joseph Smith.

There are many teachings about things outside of this world.

Wasn't Satan an angel?

Also is he not "the great deceiver"? What better way to deceive than to make men write all these diluted translations of holy books that give clear descriptions of what he is and is not, then pose as the thing the books say he isn't by whispering things in your head that give you peaceful thoughts? Not least because peace brings pleasure and pleasure is a sin (at least according to the holy books that Satan may have written through deceiving the men that wrote them).

Yes, satan was, and is, an angel. However, from what we know about him, he had lost his ability to have peace by wanting to take God's place. And he is completely without peace at this time. He has lost his way, place, and future.

 

[TexRex]

from what we know about him

 

[Ghost Lap]

There's a lot of people on here that are a bit too stuck in rationality and logical thinking in my view, as if God has anything to do with rationality or logical thinking.

 

[Liquid]

as if God has anything to do with rationality or logical thinking.

Say that again but s l o w l y.

When said by an atheist, this makes sense.
When said by a theist, this makes no sense.

You're admitting you cannot explain your position. It's fine to believe in something but you cannot claim it to be truth unless you can explain your position, which you have just demonstrated you cannot.

 

[TexRex]

That one has 102 posts in this thread, wholly absent meaningful engagement, out of 182 total posts since joining the site approximately 18 months ago.

Just food for thought.

 

[HenrySwanson]

There's a lot of people on here that are a bit too stuck in rationality and logical thinking in my view, as if God has anything to do with rationality or logical thinking.

Why do you believe in God then? Upbringing?

 

[Famine]

There's a lot of people on here that are a bit too stuck in rationality and logical thinking in my view, as if God has anything to do with rationality or logical thinking.

Given that you used an electronic device to communicate that thought onto an internet forum, what is the exact crossover point at which rationality and logic - which is more or less what we use to comprehend the universe around us and create things like electronic devices and the Internet by exploiting our knowledge - stops being an adequate tool for acquiring and exploiting knowledge?

Where, precisely, does something cease to be knowable through the same process that created your electronic device and start being only knowable through believing your preferred English translation of a Latin translation of a carefully selected anthology of Greek, Aramaic, and Sanskrit documents of non-witness statements is the explicit word of a surprisingly anthropomorphic, capricious, hypocritical and intangible entity?


Or do you think faith allows you to talk to strangers through a flattened rock we trapped lightning inside of and tricked into thinking?

 

[TB]

Looking through imgur I came across this.

 

[Ghost Lap]

Given that you used an electronic device to communicate that thought onto an internet forum, what is the exact crossover point at which rationality and logic - which is more or less what we use to comprehend the universe around us and create things like electronic devices and the Internet by exploiting our knowledge - stops being an adequate tool for acquiring and exploiting knowledge?

Where, precisely, does something cease to be knowable through the same process that created your electronic device and start being only knowable through believing your preferred English translation of a Latin translation of a carefully selected anthology of Greek, Aramaic, and Sanskrit documents of non-witness statements is the explicit word of a surprisingly anthropomorphic, capricious, hypocritical and intangible entity?


Or do you think faith allows you to talk to strangers through a flattened rock we trapped lightning inside of and tricked into thinking?

Have you ever considered alternative methods for getting to know God or god, such as regular prayer (They don't have to be rehearsed from any book or scripture, they can be as personal and intimate as you like), meditation, yoga. Even going for a quiet walk in nature or listening to a nice bit of music in your alone time that touches your heart etc.

 

[Famine]

Have you ever considered alternative methods for getting to know God or god, such as regular prayer (They don't have to be rehearsed from any book or scripture, they can be as personal and intimate as you like), meditation, yoga. Even going for a quiet walk in nature or listening to a nice bit of music in your alone time that touches your heart etc.

Funny that you felt the need to respond to my question but not actually address the question itself in any way.

What's the crossover point between "rationality and logic explains and creates this" (like all the thousands of years that went into you being able to use a computer/phone to not answer questions on an internet forum) and "rationality and logic cannot explain this"? Where, in your mind, does the tool we use to understand and manipulate the entire universe stop being of any use to us?

 

[Ghost Lap]

Funny that you felt the need to respond to my question but not actually address the question itself in any way.

What's the crossover point between "rationality and logic explains and creates this" (like all the thousands of years that went into you being able to use a computer/phone to not answer questions on an internet forum) and "rationality and logic cannot explain this"? Where, in your mind, does the tool we use to understand and manipulate the entire universe stop being of any use to us?

Rationality and logical thinking definitely have their place in the world and in our everyday lives, but I personally believe that in order to know and connect with God at some point you will have to step outside of your rational and logical mind and go beyond it. God isn't really something that can be explained rationally or logically in my opinion, in order to know God I think you have to broaden your horizons a bit beyond logic and reason. God isn't something to be understood through the rational mind, but rather is something to be experienced in your heart and soul.

 

[Famine]

Rationality and logical thinking definitely have their place in the world and in our everyday lives, but I personally believe that in order to know and connect with God at some point you will have to step outside of your rational and logical mind and go beyond it. God isn't really something that can be explained rationally or logically in my opinion, in order to know God I think you have to broaden your horizons a bit beyond logic and reason. God isn't something to be understood through the rational mind, but rather is something to be experienced in your heart and soul.

Yes, you said all that already - as have all the people fronting the same argument for the same thing before.

But it does not address the question I posed you. Where, exactly, does the point come at which you abandon all rationality/logic/reason because it's no longer the right tool for understanding a part of the universe - despite it being the right tool for understanding all of the universe, and the only reason you can use your computer/phone to ignore questions on an internet forum - and must instead pick up faith/belief?

What is that exact moment/thing?

What goes in the "?" space where rationality/logic/reason is no longer the tool for understanding things and faith/belief takes over?

 

[Ghost Lap]

Yes, you said all that already - as have all the people fronting the same argument for the same thing before.

But it does not address the question I posed you. Where, exactly, does the point come at which you abandon all rationality/logic/reason because it's no longer the right tool for understanding a part of the universe - despite it being the right tool for understanding all of the universe, and the only reason you can use your computer/phone to ignore questions on an internet forum - and must instead pick up faith/belief?

What is that exact moment/thing?

View attachment 1256600

What goes in the "?" space where rationality/logic/reason is no longer the tool for understanding things and faith/belief takes over?

The answer may be subjective as it may differ exactly from person to person, but I'd say at the point where you reach your intellectual limit of understanding the physical universe as we know it and you're still no closer to God then you were when you began your search. Everyone's journey is different and unique, but if you're truly serious about getting to know God then I'd imagine that at some stage you will inevitably reach this point of intellectual limitations and strive for something deeper no matter who you are.

 

[Famine]

The answer may be subjective

It can't be; the whole point of reasoning/logic/rationality is that it is objective. It must reach an objective limit for your contention to be true.

I'd say at the point where you reach your intellectual limit of understanding the physical universe as we know it

Why would it depend on an individual reaching their "intellectual limit of understanding"?

Science doesn't stop working when you stop understanding it; every field has its own dedicated experts who have extreme knowledge of specifics in a particular field of expertise but very limited knowledge of other specifics that other experts have extreme knowledge of. They don't pretend that the knowledge doesn't exist because they don't understand it, just as others don't pretend their specific knowledge doesn't exist because it's outside their field.

I understand a lot about molecular biology in broad terms, but I'm only at an MSc. level - and about 15 years out of date at that. There are people currently working in that field who have way more knowledge than I do; why would I deny that knowledge exists and rely on faith instead? Each has their own specialism that gives them more knowledge than others with other specialisms; why would they each deny that the others' knowledge exists and rely on faith instead? There are people who are as knowledgeable about astronomy as I am about molecular biology, but they don't have the molecular biology knowledge I have and I don't have the astronomy knowledge they have; why would I deny their knowledge exists and they mine, and rely on faith instead? There are people currently working in astronomy who have way more knowledge than those me-equivalents do; why would they deny that knowledge exists, and rely on faith instead? Each has their own specialism that gives them more knowledge than others with other specialisms; why would they each deny that the others' knowledge exists and rely on faith instead?


As a whole, humanity's knowledge keeps on increasing, whether the individual understands it or not - and no individual understands it all. Claiming that individual ignorance is the point at which all reason must give up and make way for faith is ridiculous.

Which still leaves us with the question: at what point does rationality/logic/reason stop being the tool to explain, understand, and manipulate our universe and faith/belief takes over? If it's your contention that only faith/belief is enough to understand your deity and rationality/logic/reason cannot do it, there must be a point at which - despite being the method of acquiring all knowledge we have today - rationality/logic/reason stops being the tool, given that you're entirely happy to use the products of that tool (your computing device, the internet) to communicate this. It's fine until it isn't fine, it seems.

Show me that point, the point at which everyone "stuck in rationality and logical thinking" must abandon it because it cannot function any longer.


Of course if you're trying to convey that faith takes over when ignorance starts...

 

[HenrySwanson]

The answer may be subjective as it may differ exactly from person to person, but I'd say at the point where you reach your intellectual limit of understanding the physical universe as we know it and you're still no closer to God then you were when you began your search. Everyone's journey is different and unique, but if you're truly serious about getting to know God then I'd imagine that at some stage you will inevitably reach this point of intellectual limitations and strive for something deeper no matter who you are.

Can you elaborate on your personal experience? Is it solely because you were brought up in a certain faith or did something happen to you?

 

[Liquid]

Looking through imgur I came across this.

View attachment 1256546

As if God has anything to do with rationality or logical thinking.

 

[Ghost Lap]

Can you elaborate on your personal experience? Is it solely because you were brought up in a certain faith or did something happen to you?

I was brought up being told that God wasn't real and that religion was basically a load of rubbish, and so I pretty much took on this way of thinking and went about my life for years without ever questioning my own beliefs regarding these matters. I guess it's a bit of a toss up between going through personal hardships and my general curiosity about life that eventually led me to start asking myself these deep sorts of questions such as is there a God, is there a greater purpose to life?

I came to a point where I just started praying and talking to God one time about things that have happened in my life, and I think something up there may have heard me because due to a number of strange coincidences or synchronicities (if you believe as I do) that have followed ever since, I have been led on my own personal journey of wanting to know God and to find out if there really is a greater purpose to life beyond what we call the physical. I'm still only very early on into my own personal search for God and meaning, and I'm sure I will be on this search for the rest of my life to be honest, but I'm trying and learning much about myself as I go along.

 

[HenrySwanson]

and I think something up there may have heard me because due to a number of strange coincidences or synchronicities (if you believe as I do) that have followed ever since

Why couldn't it be something down there? Are you choosing God as the answer because it gives you comfort?