Do you believe in God?

[Danoff]

I came to a point where I just started praying and talking to God one time about things that have happened in my life, and I think something up there may have heard me because due to a number of strange coincidences or synchronicities (if you believe as I do) that have followed ever since, I have been led on my own personal journey of wanting to know God and to find out if there really is a greater purpose to life beyond what we call the physical. I'm still only very early on into my own personal search for God and meaning, and I'm sure I will be on this search for the rest of my life to be honest, but I'm trying and learning much about myself as I go along.

That's called confirmation bias.

 

[TexRex]

God brings peace. Satan never can.

Though I suppose fewer lives brings greater opportunity (obviously not a guarantee) for peace.

 

[HenrySwanson]

 

[TRLWNC7396]

This is interesting:



As far as God vs Satan killing people, I would say that Satan still has the higher body count. How many have been so depressed that they killed themselves. Or angry enough to start (and continue) a war.

Lots to take in, and no, God has not killed more. He has allowed evil people to kill each other, and even good people, but that is really as far as it goes. (Okay, mostly. I'm sure that looking at some detail could say otherwise.... )

 

[TheCracker]

As far as God vs Satan killing people, I would say that Satan still has the higher body count. How many have been so depressed that they killed themselves. Or angry enough to start (and continue) a war.

How many wars have been started by people doing it in the name of god over another religion's god - or even just an alternative flavour of the abrahamic god?

 

[TexRex]

Lots to take in, and no, God has not killed more.

"I don't like this so it's wrong" is a common feature of religious psychosis.

 

[Famine]

How many wars have been started by people doing it in the name of god over another religion's god - or even just an alternative flavour of the abrahamic god?

"Well it was the wrong god so clearly Satan did it" - people sure their god is the right one and who also have no sense of irony.

 

[Danoff]

This is interesting:



As far as God vs Satan killing people, I would say that Satan still has the higher body count. How many have been so depressed that they killed themselves. Or angry enough to start (and continue) a war.

Lots to take in, and no, God has not killed more. He has allowed evil people to kill each other, and even good people, but that is really as far as it goes. (Okay, mostly. I'm sure that looking at some detail could say otherwise.... )

"God is all-knowing and all-powerful" means God intentionally created the universe exactly as it is knowing what would happen. God is responsible for all deaths of all kinds. All life as well, of course. God put us here to suffer*.

*Trademark Christianity Corp.

 

[TenEightyOne]

As far as God vs Satan killing people, I would say that Satan still has the higher body count.

Yeah, no, ha-Satan was placed in the path of mankind by God to allow them to choose their way, and that goes back to before the birth of Jeebus by almost a millenium. Even when we get to the Christian Era we find Paul describing Satan in the same way.Satan was placed on Earth by God, and maybe later at Sheol or possibly in the deepest Hell, and then maybe back on the Earth again depending on the Director's Cut you prefer... but whatever the case the Angels, Cherubs and Seraphs were all created by God in their first instances and therefore their actions are the direct result of the Creator's own actions.

Obviously you have no real interest in the theological history of any of this, you're just Othering to make yourself feel better. Many social systems are driven that way, but religious social systems are almost exclusively so.

 

[TexRex]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!

Ten!

 

[HenrySwanson]

Lots to take in, and no, God has not killed more. He has allowed evil people to kill each other, and even good people, but that is really as far as it goes. (Okay, mostly. I'm sure that looking at some detail could say otherwise.... )

I don't want to add to the pile on, but in your view who (or what) causes fatal diseases?

 

[TexRex]

As far as God vs Satan killing people, I would say that Satan still has the higher body count. How many have been so depressed that they killed themselves.

Why is "Satan" responsible for depression suicide? Is "Satan" also responsible for suicide due to terminal illness and the pain associated with it? Why or why not? Did "God" cause that terminal illness? Why or why not?

Per your belief, who is responsible for the deaths of homosexuals to AIDS? Did "God" cause AIDS? Did "Satan" cause homosexuality? Why or why not? What of AIDS deaths subsequent to HIV infection due to needle sharing by drug users? I can imagine you'll insist that "Satan" is responsible for drug use, mind you an explanation would be appreciated, but who is responsible for that HIV infection? What of those AIDS deaths subsequent to HIV infection by blood transfusion in the absence of knowledge of HIV/AIDS?

Your posting of a pastor's reaction video which you said was interesting (without actually indicating why it's supposed to be interesting, I'll add) got me wondering, who is responsible for those pastors and other church leaders who sexually abuse children? I can imagine (or hope?) you'll insist that "Satan" is responsible for those abuses, of course an explanation would still be appreciated, but are those church leaders not servants of "God"? Could such a servant of "God" be so susceptible to the influence of "Satan" to perpetrate those abuses, where even I, one who adheres to no religious doctrine, am not? I said I hope you'll insist that "Satan" is responsible for those abuses, but do you believe that? Or are those abuses not abuses at all, but instead acts of love, in service to "God"?

I ask these questions because you seem to be so assured in your belief and purport to explain other things, so I'd hope you have explanations for the above.

 

[McLaren]

As far as God vs Satan killing people, I would say that Satan still has the higher body count.

One of these guys flooded the earth to kill everyone but a select few, according to religious background.....

"the fountains of the Great Deep burst apart and the floodgates of heaven broke open" and rain fell for forty days and forty nights until the highest mountains were covered to a depth of 15 cubits, and all life perished except Noah and those with him in the Ark"

 

[TRLWNC7396]

Hmm... Opening the flood gates.

Give me a bit. It's not a quick or simple response.

 

[Daz555]

As far as God vs Satan killing people, I would say that Satan still has the higher body count. How many have been so depressed that they killed themselves. Or angry enough to start (and continue) a war.

Lots to take in, and no, God has not killed more. He has allowed evil people to kill each other, and even good people, but that is really as far as it goes. (Okay, mostly. I'm sure that looking at some detail could say otherwise.... )

Well this god created satan and this god has known for eternity who exactly who would kill whom.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

Though I suppose fewer lives brings greater opportunity (obviously not a guarantee) for peace.

The thing that really bugs me about this is that it makes the one look different from the other. God has allowed death, and has killed. No problem. However, saying that Satan didn't lead people to do wrong is overlooking a LOT.

How many wars have been started by people doing it in the name of god over another religion's god - or even just an alternative flavour of the abrahamic god?

The saddest part about anything is that a person can become SO passionate about something that they will say that everyone is wrong. And then fight to prove they are right. Arguments are wars, they just haven't escalated to death (yet).

Every war is based on a belief that one person thinks is the "right" one. I am deeply saddened by much of history. I don't think that less than half of all wars have been fought over a religious belief. Sometimes it could be justified, but honestly, if you aren't defending then you are murdering. (in my opinion)

"I don't like this so it's wrong" is a common feature of religious psychosis.

I'm not saying that the figure is right or wrong. I am saying that this is a questionable focus.

"Well it was the wrong god so clearly Satan did it" - people sure their god is the right one and who also have no sense of irony.

I am fully aware of the irony of God saving 8 people in the flood and wiping out untold millions.

"God is all-knowing and all-powerful" means God intentionally created the universe exactly as it is knowing what would happen. God is responsible for all deaths of all kinds. All life as well, of course. God put us here to suffer*.

*Trademark Christianity Corp.

Yes, this is true. It is also false. God placed us on earth to test us. This does not mean that he WANTS us to suffer. Life is difficult, suffering is a choice. It's hard to remain positive. I know. I struggle with that daily. But the choice to be happy and look at positive parts of life really does make a difference.

Yeah, no, ha-Satan was placed in the path of mankind by God to allow them to choose their way, and that goes back to before the birth of Jeebus by almost a millenium. Even when we get to the Christian Era we find Paul describing Satan in the same way.Satan was placed on Earth by God, and maybe later at Sheol or possibly in the deepest Hell, and then maybe back on the Earth again depending on the Director's Cut you prefer... but whatever the case the Angels, Cherubs and Seraphs were all created by God in their first instances and therefore their actions are the direct result of the Creator's own actions.

Obviously you have no real interest in the theological history of any of this, you're just Othering to make yourself feel better. Many social systems are driven that way, but religious social systems are almost exclusively so.

Satan was an angel in heaven. The interesting question is how he decided to think he needed to be the person in control. Then what led him to challenge God the Father. Lots of hard questions to answer, and we don't have any way of understanding that at this time.

I don't want to add to the pile on, but in your view who (or what) causes fatal diseases?

Everyone has a challenge in life that will push them to their limit. The question is which way they will turn to get through it. If you believe that fatal diseases are simply a test to prove us, then it doesn't matter that God either created them or allowed them to be created. I feel that some diseases have altered over the course of time so that they aren't what they originally were created to be. I also believe that (especially since we understand DNA manipulation) some diseases have been created by people. At least recently

Why is "Satan" responsible for depression suicide? Is "Satan" also responsible for suicide due to terminal illness and the pain associated with it? Why or why not? Did "God" cause that terminal illness? Why or why not?

Per your belief, who is responsible for the deaths of homosexuals to AIDS? Did "God" cause AIDS? Did "Satan" cause homosexuality? Why or why not? What of AIDS deaths subsequent to HIV infection due to needle sharing by drug users? I can imagine you'll insist that "Satan" is responsible for drug use, mind you an explanation would be appreciated, but who is responsible for that HIV infection? What of those AIDS deaths subsequent to HIV infection by blood transfusion in the absence of knowledge of HIV/AIDS?

Your posting of a pastor's reaction video which you said was interesting (without actually indicating why it's supposed to be interesting, I'll add) got me wondering, who is responsible for those pastors and other church leaders who sexually abuse children? I can imagine (or hope?) you'll insist that "Satan" is responsible for those abuses, of course an explanation would still be appreciated, but are those church leaders not servants of "God"? Could such a servant of "God" be so susceptible to the influence of "Satan" to perpetrate those abuses, where even I, one who adheres to no religious doctrine, am not? I said I hope you'll insist that "Satan" is responsible for those abuses, but do you believe that? Or are those abuses not abuses at all, but instead acts of love, in service to "God"?

I ask these questions because you seem to be so assured in your belief and purport to explain other things, so I'd hope you have explanations for the above.

Satan is responsible for pushing people. Sometimes into doing things, other times into thinking things. However, in the end, it is each person's choice to follow the line of reasoning and action that lead to depression and suicide.

Before you reply that there are other reasons, I do understand that there are. I'm talking about people who are basically healthy and end up not. I deal with depression on a daily basis. It takes a GREAT deal of effort to not be pulled down by it. But it is MY choice to follow that line of thought and action, not the forces that are going on around me.

AIDS is an interesting question. I have heard conspiracy theories that a human created it. I have also heard the opposite. I don't care, it's just a disease. And if you aren't faithful to the person you are married to, you have a possibility of having to deal with it.

I was intrigued by the reaction video as much because it is wonderfully amazing to see someone ACTUALLY talk about similarities as it is to see how many similarities there are. Seriously. I grew up in WNC (and I love it here! ), and there are people who will OPENLY hate me (and others of my church) simply because I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It is downright weird at times. Seriously.

The entire idea of a leader of a church abusing others is so deeply saddening. There are many excuses, but it really seems that there are only a couple of reasons. The biggest reason is that hurt people hurt people. The second biggest reason is not getting counseling when you should. The third is (hopefully less common than not) that a person gets themselves into a rabbit hole thinking about sex and simply loses the ability to not act on that. Addiction are addictions, no matter how they turn out. The idea that a person in the ministry should NOT be married is heresy. We are wired to NEED sex, and denying yourself a need tends to end badly. Don't drink water for a week, you know?

One of these guys flooded the earth to kill everyone but a select few, according to religious background.....

"the fountains of the Great Deep burst apart and the floodgates of heaven broke open" and rain fell for forty days and forty nights until the highest mountains were covered to a depth of 15 cubits, and all life perished except Noah and those with him in the Ark"

Yep. It's an interesting concept. But that was also to baptize the earth. So, God gave them all a chance to listen to the prophet of their time. When they didn't, they didn't survive. Whose fault was that?

Another note on that. A cubit is between 18" and 24" (45 and 60 CM). Where were the mountains if everything was less than 50 feet (15 meters or so) tall? Always and interesting question.

 

[Danoff]

Yes, this is true. It is also false. God placed us on earth to test us. This does not mean that he WANTS us to suffer. Life is difficult, suffering is a choice. It's hard to remain positive. I know. I struggle with that daily. But the choice to be happy and look at positive parts of life really does make a difference.

Suffering is not a choice, and pretending that it is represents some callous, immoral, victim-blaming nonsense. Suffering is something that happens to all of us at some point in time, and your god, by definition, is responsible for it, knew it would happen, and intentionally brought it about. Your god, by definition, is responsible for all suffering of all kinds.

 

[McLaren]

What an absolute asinine story.

“Y’all didn’t listen to me so I’m just gonna wipe y’all out and it’s your fault.” And this is supposed to somehow be a logical reasoning as to why God’s kill count is good compared to Satan’s.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Satan was an angel in heaven. The interesting question is how he decided to think he needed to be the person in control. Then what led him to challenge God the Father. Lots of hard questions to answer, and we don't have any way of understanding that at this time.

Anything he decided to think, or any control that he decided to take... those things were all between the Alpha and the Omega, they were all things within God's heaven, they were all to do with matters of the Heaven and of the Earth, all of Satan's actions as an angel cast-down are effected upon the Earth and its people.

Which are all the eternal dominion of Satan's creator Himself, the Holy Spirit.

Correct or incorrect?

 

[HenrySwanson]

AIDS is an interesting question. I have heard conspiracy theories that a human created it. I have also heard the opposite. I don't care, it's just a disease. And if you aren't faithful to the person you are married to, you have a possibility of having to deal with it.

Please read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discredited_HIV/AIDS_origins_theories

Origin of HIV and AIDS | History of HIV

HIV is thought to have occurred when people ate chimps that carried the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus (SIV). Find out the history of the HIV & AIDS pandemic.

www.beintheknow.org

Your last sentence is also very reductive concerning HIV transmission around the world.

God placed us on earth to test us. This does not mean that he WANTS us to suffer.

He WANTS to test us, and the means to do this is by causing conditions in which we suffer....right?

Everyone has a challenge in life that will push them to their limit. The question is which way they will turn to get through it. If you believe that fatal diseases are simply a test to prove us, then it doesn't matter that God either created them or allowed them to be created.

What is the "wrong" and "right" way to turn to when confronted with a fatal disease?

I feel that some diseases have altered over the course of time so that they aren't what they originally were created to be. I also believe that (especially since we understand DNA manipulation) some diseases have been created by people. At least recently

So genetic engineering....something that only started in the 1970s.

Which diseases do you believe have originated as a result of that? Or are you talking about man-made changes to the environment causing disease?

 

[TRLWNC7396]

Please read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discredited_HIV/AIDS_origins_theories

Origin of HIV and AIDS | History of HIV

HIV is thought to have occurred when people ate chimps that carried the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus (SIV). Find out the history of the HIV & AIDS pandemic.

www.beintheknow.org

Your last sentence is also very reductive concerning HIV transmission around the world.


He WANTS to test us, and the means to do this is by causing conditions in which we suffer....right?

What is the "wrong" and "right" way to turn to when confronted with a fatal disease?

So genetic engineering....something that only started in the 1970s.

Which diseases do you believe have originated as a result of that? Or are you talking about man-made changes to the environment causing disease?

Yeah, that last sentence didn't feel good to me, either. Too many problems with that argument.

But the truth remains that if you and your spouse are completely faithful, your chance of getting any std is lessened by over 90%. So... (shrug)

My statement about suffering wasn't trying to be callous.
Mourning a loss is normal. Being miserable about it isn't. Even if it feels miserable in the moment, you can still (with good friends and support) be able to not suffer completely.

But, yeah, that one is a catch-22 no matter which way you say it.

As far as other diseases, I did say "recently". I'm not saying that all diseases have been altered or created. But it is known that weaponizing diseases for biological warfare has happened. I remember hearing about it back in the late 80's to early 90's. Hopefully not many have been "accidentally" released.

However, there have been changes over time. Why do we get colds? Because that particular virus changes. As do many. Saying that environmental factors can affect that is like saying water runs downhill.

 

[HenrySwanson]

My statement about suffering wasn't trying to be callous.
Mourning a loss is normal. Being miserable about it isn't. Even if it feels miserable in the moment, you can still (with good friends and support) be able to not suffer completely.

I'm confused by your stance here.

Being miserable following a loss isn't normal?

And what of the person who is diagnosed with the fatal disease - do they not "suffer completely"?

 

[TheCracker]

Yes, this is true. It is also false. God placed us on earth to test us. This does not mean that he WANTS us to suffer. Life is difficult, suffering is a choice. It's hard to remain positive. I know. I struggle with that daily. But the choice to be happy and look at positive parts of life really does make a difference.



Everyone has a challenge in life that will push them to their limit. The question is which way they will turn to get through it.

There are estimated to be 2 billion people in the world right now who are classed as living in extreme poverty. That's a (probably short) lifetime of suffering. They didn't make a choice that led them into that suffering, they were born into it and will likely have no choice but to die because of it. I think your view is very First World-centric.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

I'm confused by your stance here.

Being miserable following a loss isn't normal?

And what of the person who is diagnosed with the fatal disease - do they not "suffer completely"?

In all reality, there is no way of not suffering. The process of mourning is something that we all must experience. Because everyone will die, we will lose friends and family. This gives us something to mourn.

In other times, we may mourn a change. I am doing that at the moment. Long story, but I will be moving sometime in the future from a place I dearly love to a place I know nothing about, and am quite concerned about going to. I literally cry every time I really think about it.

When a bad thin happens, it is a chance to mourn. Then the chance to learn how to choose to be happy rather than stay upset and choose anger or sadness.

It's not an easy thing to do. I've been trying to find a way to choose being happy over being mad for years. I think I'm getting a bit better than I used to. But it's still a choice.

Mourning and sadness, not to mention pain, is part of life. However, choosing to be happy (and, preferably getting around people who are the same) is a choice and a way of life.

It seems simple, I'm sure, and overly trite. But the reality is that the choice is our in the end.

Some of the happiest people in life are the poorest. And some of the most upset and miserable are the richest. Not an absolute, but it's a (mostly) common thing.

 

[DioEmsti]

"I don't like this so it's wrong" is a common feature of religious psychosis.

Seems to happen a lot on this forum tbh

 

[HenrySwanson]

In all reality, there is no way of not suffering. The process of mourning is something that we all must experience. Because everyone will die, we will lose friends and family. This gives us something to mourn.

In other times, we may mourn a change. I am doing that at the moment. Long story, but I will be moving sometime in the future from a place I dearly love to a place I know nothing about, and am quite concerned about going to. I literally cry every time I really think about it.

When a bad thin happens, it is a chance to mourn. Then the chance to learn how to choose to be happy rather than stay upset and choose anger or sadness.

It's not an easy thing to do. I've been trying to find a way to choose being happy over being mad for years. I think I'm getting a bit better than I used to. But it's still a choice.

Mourning and sadness, not to mention pain, is part of life. However, choosing to be happy (and, preferably getting around people who are the same) is a choice and a way of life.

It seems simple, I'm sure, and overly trite. But the reality is that the choice is our in the end.

Some of the happiest people in life are the poorest. And some of the most upset and miserable are the richest. Not an absolute, but it's a (mostly) common thing.

Recently, a condition called prolonged grief disorder was added to the guide psychiatrists use for classifying and diagnosing mental illness:

Prolonged grief disorder - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Did people who suffer in this way make a choice?

 

[TexRex]

God has allowed death, and has killed. No problem. However, saying that Satan didn't lead people to do wrong is overlooking a LOT.

It seems like you're saying "God" has killed more than "Satan." "God" has killed and people have killed. All "Satan" did was..."lead"...whatever that means.

I'm not saying that the figure is right or wrong. I am saying that this is a questionable focus.

Your contention is with the accounting. It's the focus because you made it the focus, "questionable" or otherwise.

Satan is responsible for pushing people. Sometimes into doing things, other times into thinking things. However, in the end, it is each person's choice to follow the line of reasoning and action that lead to depression and suicide.

Why does "Satan" have anything to do with it? What is the basis for the delusion that "Satan" has anything to do with it?

AIDS is an interesting question. I have heard conspiracy theories that a human created it. I have also heard the opposite. I don't care, it's just a disease. And if you aren't faithful to the person you are married to, you have a possibility of having to deal with it.

This is a dodge.

You also dodged my question regarding homosexuality, by the way.

The entire idea of a leader of a church abusing others is so deeply saddening. There are many excuses, but it really seems that there are only a couple of reasons. The biggest reason is that hurt people hurt people. The second biggest reason is not getting counseling when you should. The third is (hopefully less common than not) that a person gets themselves into a rabbit hole thinking about sex and simply loses the ability to not act on that. Addiction are addictions, no matter how they turn out. The idea that a person in the ministry should NOT be married is heresy. We are wired to NEED sex, and denying yourself a need tends to end badly. Don't drink water for a week, you know?

Rape isn't sex. Rape is violence. Rape is a violation of rights. Rape is about the power one has over another and nothing else.

 

[Liquid]

God has allowed death, and has killed. No problem.

I have a problem with a god that kills.

 

[Ghost Lap]

I have a problem with a god that kills.

So basically you have a problem with reality?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

God works in mysterious ways.